High volume scoring in the playoffs - MJ vs Kobe vs Lebron vs Iverson

[Xherdan 23]

Can you add others?

Bird
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Dirk
Wade

Hakeem
12 games
FG 203/374
3PT 3/4
FG% 54
TOV/G 2.9

Bird
1 game
FG 17/33
3PT 0/1
FG% 51
TOV/G 6.0

Duncan
1 game
FG 9/30
3PT 0/0
FG% 30
TOV/G 1.0

Shaq
5 games
FG 95/158
3PT 0/0
FG% 60
TOV/G 2.2

As you can clearly see, this is a very useful way to compare high volume scorers in the playoffs. It teaches us that Hakeem is actually the best 3pt shooter of all time, Bird can't handle a basketball and Dirk and Wade are not in the conversation as playoff scorers. Good stuff.

Pretty impressive by Hakeem.

Shows that he can increase volume without a drop in efficiency from the C position.

Not really. When you filter by points instead of by shots you get a much more accurate picture of volume scoring.

When I filtered by 40+ point games I got:
Hakeem
11 games
184/309
59.5 FG%
2.7 TOV/G
So Hakeem looks even better than he did with the last filter

Shaq
12 games
201/328
61 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

^And this right here is the problem with OP's backwards method:
He was filtering volume shooting instead of volume scoring so you lose some of Shaq's best games because he was TOO efficient, same thing that happened with LeBron.
When you filter by high scoring, Shaq is a better scorer than Hakeem in both volume and efficiency which is to be expected.

Remember Wade and Dirk? With OP's filter they don't even show up but with this one they both have 7 games of 40+ scoring (Including 50pt and 48pt games for Dirk, 46pt game for Wade, I'd call that high volume scoring).

Wade
7 games
97/176
55 FG%
3.5 TOV/G

Dirk
7 games
97/157
61 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

This is all while OP doesn't allow the use of TS% for some reason and doesn't consider 50 point games to be volume scoring unless you chucked over 30 field goals.

[Ainosterhaspie]

Going into gunner mode wouldn't have helped in '14. That series was all about the Spurs offense playing at an absurd level. The Heat's defensive scheme which had largely worked for the three years prior required intense energy to be effective. The Heat were gassed by the '14 finals, couldn't play defense and faced a beautiful team offense that was firing on all cylinders.

The margin of victory was so high that LeBron could have averaged more points than Jordan ever did in a finals and it still wouldn't have been enough. The Spurs offense was that dominant that year.

[thekdog34]

Hakeem
12 games
FG 203/374
3PT 3/4
FG% 54
TOV/G 2.9

Bird
1 game
FG 17/33
3PT 0/1
FG% 51
TOV/G 6.0

Duncan
1 game
FG 9/30
3PT 0/0
FG% 30
TOV/G 1.0

Shaq
5 games
FG 95/158
3PT 0/0
FG% 60
TOV/G 2.2

As you can clearly see, this is a very useful way to compare high volume scorers in the playoffs. It teaches us that Hakeem is actually the best 3pt shooter of all time, Bird can't handle a basketball and Dirk and Wade are not in the conversation as playoff scorers. Good stuff.

Pretty impressive by Hakeem.

Shows that he can increase volume without a drop in efficiency from the C position.

Shows he had a killer run in 95 more than anything else. As 9 of the 12 games were that year.

So?

[dhsilv2]

Pretty impressive by Hakeem.

Shows that he can increase volume without a drop in efficiency from the C position.

Shows he had a killer run in 95 more than anything else. As 9 of the 12 games were that year.

So?

I think I said everything there. I was pointing out that it all came in a singular playoff run.

[thekdog34]

Shows he had a killer run in 95 more than anything else. As 9 of the 12 games were that year.

So?

I think I said everything there. I was pointing out that it all came in a singular playoff run.

9 of 12. And it's not like he has low usage in the rest of his playoffs career

[Long2s]

http://stats.nba.com/players/shooting/
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html

Kinda sol on mj....

Where do you see drives and post up stats in those?

You don't.

You just see distance. Did you really not know this? Where are open cuts, where are transitions in this? That's why you can't use it of course.

Did you not know this?

You do that here:

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/

The data doesn't exist going further back than 13-14, but you can see that Wade drives more than Lebron in every season. Kobe as an old man drives around 9 times a game in the games he plays in 13-15. Prime MJ would drive a lot more than that.

What I posted illustrates what I said as best one can reasonably do.

No it doesn't.

Not in any way, shape or form.

Lebron is an average driver, no more than Durant, Chandler Parsons or Paul George.

The shots pr. distance is entirely meaningless for your argument, absolutely meaningless.

[Long2s]

Fact: Lebron gets a lot more free throws than Kobe and MJ.

[Dupp]

So Kobe only has 13 playoff games of 40+ point ( compared to Lebron 19)

Of those 13 he took 30 shots or more in 7 of them. Compare that to Lebron 7/19 of 30 shots.


But in a new low we hold efficiency against Lebron

[dhsilv2]

So?

I think I said everything there. I was pointing out that it all came in a singular playoff run.

9 of 12. And it's not like he has low usage in the rest of his playoffs career

Did I say that? He had 1 year where he had 75% of his 30 FGA games and it was a great run. Stop reading anything else into what I said.

[dhsilv2]

Where do you see drives and post up stats in those?

You don't.

You just see distance. Did you really not know this? Where are open cuts, where are transitions in this? That's why you can't use it of course.

Did you not know this?

You do that here:

https://stats.nba.com/players/drives/

The data doesn't exist going further back than 13-14, but you can see that Wade drives more than Lebron in every season. Kobe as an old man drives around 9 times a game in the games he plays in 13-15. Prime MJ would drive a lot more than that.

What I posted illustrates what I said as best one can reasonably do.

No it doesn't.

Not in any way, shape or form.

Lebron is an average driver, no more than Durant, Chandler Parsons or Paul George.

The shots pr. distance is entirely meaningless for your argument, absolutely meaningless.

The combination of drives that end at the rim and low post plays are higher for lebron, and rather significantly. That is why he takes significantly more of his shots at the rim. The data does support this unless you think Lebron is getting all his buckets off fast break dunks.

[thekdog34]

What do these numbers look like with 25+ fga?

[Dupp]

Lol Jordan is crazy


38 playoff games with 40+ points ( 8 @ 50+ points). 25 of them had 30 + fgas, a lot of them well over 30)

So Jordan scored and shot like a mad man. That was his game though. But just showing how this criteria is taylored to him and Kobe.

Very stupid and bias way to try discredit someone. Guess it’s one way to compare Lebron to vastly inferior guys like kobe and iverson

[dhsilv2]

What do these numbers look like with 25+ fga?

>=25 FGA

51.4% FG 55% TS. 34.8 PPG
33 games
13 were in the 95 playoffs (kinda crazy)
6 were 94
4 were after 95

Interesting that as he became a better passer he got more FGA's.

[Jaivl]

Fact: Lebron gets a lot more free throws than Kobe and MJ.

But that's a good thing. I'm confused.

[Dupp]

Fact: Lebron gets a lot more free throws than Kobe and MJ.

But that's a good thing. I'm confused.

Actually Lebron would miss a lot more free throws than mj and Kobe so that should be a huge advantage Lebron following the logic itt

[O_6]

I guess the point of this thread is to specifically focus on general Field Goal "Shot-Making" rather than overall Points totals that can be inflated by free throws and 3pt attempts. But if you're talking about "High Volume Scoring", why refer to Attempts instead of Makes?

Wouldn't 15+ Field Goals Made say a lot more about having the ability to SCORE than 30+ Field Goal Attempts? Anybody can take 30+ FGA in a playoff game, doesn't make them a high volume scorer if they go 7/30 from the field and score 17. If you can MAKE 15 FIELD GOALS in a playoff game, THAT'S Volume Bucket-Getting.

Playoffs (Games w/ 15 or more Field Goals Made)
------- Total ------ Finals ---- Conf. Fin ----- 2nd Rd ---- 1st Rd
MJ ----- 46 ---------- 9 ----------- 7 ----------- 14 ---------- 16
KB ----- 18 ---------- 1 ----------- 3 ------------ 7 ----------- 7
LJ ----- 17 ---------- 7 ----------- 5 ------------ 2 ----------- 3
AI ------ 7 ----------- 1 ----------- 1 ------------ 2 ----------- 3

LeBron's made more than 15 field goals in a playoff game 17 times over his career. Now that still trails MJ by a mile but it puts his playoff volume scoring in greater perspective vs. Iverson and Kobe.

Unlike Kobe and AI, LeBron does not feast on weaker early round opponents when it comes to having a monster volume scoring outburst. LeBron has 12 games of 15+ shots made in the Finals/ECF, which is a massive edge over Kobe's 4 games in FInals/WCF play. Whereas MJ holds a 30 to 5 lead over LeBron when it comes to the first 2 rounds, the gap completely shrinks to just a 16 to 12 edge in the Final 2 rounds.

MJ is the GOAT Volume Scorer. It's not even a debate, even less of one in the playoffs. But LeBron's volume scoring has been phenomenal in the playoffs. As Kobe and AI show, making 15 field goals in an NBA Finals game is a legendary achievement even if you only do it once in your career. LeBron has done it 4 times over the last 2 years vs. the Warriors elite defense.

[Long2s]

MJ is the GOAT Volume Scorer. It's not even a debate

Do you agree that MJ is quite literally in a tier of his own?

[O_6]

MJ is the GOAT Volume Scorer. It's not even a debate

Do you agree that MJ is quite literally in a tier of his own?

In terms of Volume Scoring? Yes, I believe MJ was on a tier of his own.
In terms of Overall Offensive Impact? No, I still have him at #1 but not on his own tier.

[thekdog34]

Hakeem
12 games
FG 203/374
3PT 3/4
FG% 54
TOV/G 2.9

Bird
1 game
FG 17/33
3PT 0/1
FG% 51
TOV/G 6.0

Duncan
1 game
FG 9/30
3PT 0/0
FG% 30
TOV/G 1.0

Shaq
5 games
FG 95/158
3PT 0/0
FG% 60
TOV/G 2.2

As you can clearly see, this is a very useful way to compare high volume scorers in the playoffs. It teaches us that Hakeem is actually the best 3pt shooter of all time, Bird can't handle a basketball and Dirk and Wade are not in the conversation as playoff scorers. Good stuff.

Pretty impressive by Hakeem.

Shows that he can increase volume without a drop in efficiency from the C position.

Not really. When you filter by points instead of by shots you get a much more accurate picture of volume scoring.

When I filtered by 40+ point games I got:
Hakeem
11 games
184/309
59.5 FG%
2.7 TOV/G
So Hakeem looks even better than he did with the last filter

Shaq
12 games
201/328
61 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

^And this right here is the problem with OP's backwards method:
He was filtering volume shooting instead of volume scoring so you lose some of Shaq's best games because he was TOO efficient, same thing that happened with LeBron.
When you filter by high scoring, Shaq is a better scorer than Hakeem in both volume and efficiency which is to be expected.

Remember Wade and Dirk? With OP's filter they don't even show up but with this one they both have 7 games of 40+ scoring (Including 50pt and 48pt games for Dirk, 46pt game for Wade, I'd call that high volume scoring).

Wade
7 games
97/176
55 FG%
3.5 TOV/G

Dirk
7 games
97/157
61 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

This is all while OP doesn't allow the use of TS% for some reason and doesn't consider 50 point games to be volume scoring unless you chucked over 30 field goals.

Well that's a good debate.

Some guys rely on free throws more to generate high scoring games.

I think there's a case for arguing that being able to volume score without free throws is a valuable and very hard to stop skill.

[Xherdan 23]

Well that's a good debate.

Some guys rely on free throws more to generate high scoring games.

I think there's a case for arguing that being able to volume score without free throws is a valuable and very hard to stop skill.

You can try arguing that but I think you'll find it's just not true.
When filtering 40pt+ and under 10 FTA you get 14 games from MJ, 9 from LeBron, 6 for Kobe and 4 from AI.

Jordan
14 games
265/468
56 FG%
3.3 TOV/G

LeBron
9 games
155/266
58 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

Kobe
6 games
107/191
56 FG%
3.0 TOV/G

AI
4 games
77/145
53 FG%
2.5 TOV/G

So MJ is clearly on a different level as a scorer with or without free trows, AI doesn't belong in this discussion at all and this is really LeBron vs Kobe we're talking about.

The interesting thing is, when you look for 40+ games with 15 FTA or less, Kobe has 11 and LeBron only 12 so when you said this:

Some guys rely on free throws more to generate high scoring games.

I didn't expect to find out kobe is the one who benefits from it.

And also I don't agree with you that scoring without FT is valuable at all, I think it's bailing the defense out. Getting to the line is a skill, it puts the other team in foul trouble and prevents fast breaks.

When you don't get to the line it usually means you're not being aggressive enough and settling for jumpers instead.
That can be great if you take a lot of threes to negate the difficulty of the long distance shot with the extra point you're potentially making, but if you take mostly mid range shots you'll probably*** be less effective than someone who goes to the rim more often.

*** - Unless of course you're MJ or Dirk.