Pelly24 wrote:bledredwine wrote:
Man, I feel similarly. There’s so much potential to be great, but I wish that he was more of a competitive mindset in terms of winning instead of trying to put up great seasons and stats for individual placement on all-time lists, teaming up, giving up when tough and so on. That was a huge turnoff after being a huge fan for seven years.
I also wish that he had done more work on the footwork and intricacies of the game. Having trouble shooting? That I can understand as if it’s very hard to learn. Lebron probably should have reached out to some of the other greats to learn from them (Hakeem, Jordan, whomever). That seems to go a long way for talented players like Lebron (like Kobe and even Melo).
I think the bolded is really too subjective. People forget about that game in 1988 when MJ only took 8 shots one day after the coach told him he shot the ball too much. That is probably the most obvious sign of giving up that I've ever seen and I don't think LeBron's ever done something quite that dramatic. He might have mentally frozen up, but that's it. And then the idea that he's stat-padding—I don't know how you could have been a fan of LeBron for any length of time and come up with that. The 2009 cavs won 66 games with not one single player being as good as Scottie Pippen, Dennis Rodman and arguably Toni Kukoc (who had a .182 ws/48 for the 1998 playoff run). Sure he put up ridiculous stats and was ball dominant, but that can't be held against him if it clearly resulted in incredible success. Also, before last year's injury season, when's the last time LeBron didn't win 50 games? Before last year, when was the last time he didn't get to the finals? I just don't see any argument for him not being competitive and not being one of the most successful players ever and poss. the most impactful player ever in a vacuum (ability to make any team great).
LeBron famously reached out to Hakeem after the 2011 finals and he's used his post game in moments he's needed to most ever since. That's become one of his secret weapons he keeps tucked away. Sometimes there's a limit to what one person can get as far as skills go. LeBron is probably the 1st or second greatest ballhandler ever for someone over 6'8," and his very low turnover rate speaks to that. Consider that Westbrook and James Harden are both about 5 or 6 inches shorter than LeBron and have the ball much lower to the ground and yet they turn the ball over far more. That speaks to how careful LeBron is with the ball and probably a drastic difference in IQ. Not only is LeBron a great ballhandler, but he is also an ambidexterous finisher and shoots about 35% from three for his career on a decently high volume. All of that goes without mentioning that he's almost inarguably a top 3 passer ever and he's a decent midrange shooter. LeBron is very skilled and I'd say that you could argue that no one's ever understood the intricacies of the game like LeBron. See that press conference where he broke down the play-by-play of the last two minutes of game action for evidence. Listen to coaches explain how LeBron knows their offensive plays and formations instantly and ruins their game plan at times.
This just doesn't make sense to me. Anything that suggests LeBron isn't competitive or isn't that skilled is just hollow sports narrative talk, no offense.
Subjective? You’re mentioning a single game example of Jordan sending a message 4 years into the league to show the coach that the Bulls needed him to score and shoot more.
But 2011? Was a choke. The Celtics? That’s giving up. Not competitive at all. The whole city of Cleveland was pissed at him, including myself since I lived there. Golden State sweep, choosing not to guard durant? Giving up for an entire series.
It’s pretty clear between Lebron and Jordan that one cared a lot more about getting his squad in line and winning while the other, though he did care about winning, cared a lot more about his legacy as a single player and stats, hence his phone desktop being chasing the ghost of Jordan, teaming up with two top ten players, including one at his level and declaring “not 6, not 7...” championships before even playing a game, then not having the competitive drive to play the game to his abilities in the clutch that year or in the championship.... cherry-picking shots.
You can’t really reply to that last comment stating anything but a simple “touché”, because it is what it is, and it’s a very valid reason to be disappointed in Lebron.
Meanwhile, you refer to a single Jordan game from 88 based on sending a message to his coach? Yeah, Ok. It seems like you don’t have a case in this discussion at all, whereas I brought up about 8 examples immediately and several full series where Lebron has shown a lack of competitiveness. Why? Because it’s a very big difference between these two players, as reflected in their win records and championships as well.
I think it should be pretty obvious by now, even to the most avid Lebron follower, that Jordan was a naturally more competitive person. If you can’t agree on that? I don’t know what to tell you, other than you’re the one being subjective if you can’t understand that fairly common criticism of Lebron from fans who desire a competitive league. Yes, we’re out there and we’re competitive types too, not just Jordan fans. We love the game, aggressive defense and good competition.... sport, really. It’s not hard to see why Lebron has disappointed on multiple occasions in that regard, and it’s obvious as it’s been broadcast through the media every single time.
Jordan’s media disappointments? Gambling and conspiracy theories. And don’t even try to use retirement after a three-peat, dominating the league with “no challenges left” to say that’s a lack of competitiveness. That would be as subjective as you can get.
KD got flack for teaming up, and Lebron did with the big 3 as well. Neither were competitive decisions.
LeBron is 0-7 in game winning/tying FGs in the finals. And is 20/116 or 17% in game winning/tying FGs in the 4th/OT for his career. That's historically bad 
