RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade)

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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade) 

Post#81 » by Cavsfansince84 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:30 am

Odinn21 wrote:I'll whine about Wade getting in too late one last time because it just boggles my mind. Then I'll leave it alone.

I know that we're not using 2017 list as a baseline. It just doesn't make sense that;
Paul, Curry, Durant, Nash, all 4 jumped Wade.

First, two of those 4 do not surpass in Wade in prime duration. Curry and Nash.
Second, three of those 4 also had major durability issues. (We could include Nash as well but he managed to stay healthy enough in Phoenix.)
Third, none of them were as good as 2006, 2009 and 2010 Wade.

Overall career value is a good thing to consider but what's the point of penalizing the player that had the best sustained peak? Doesn't it count towards overall career value?

This is by far the worst decision this group of voters had and I very strongly disagreed with Erving making the top 20 just barely.


Don't agree on Nash having less prime seasons than Wade. I would argue he had 11 prime seasons starting when he was 26 years old in 01. I think people forget that he was actually top 15 in mvp voting and all nba twice before he moved to Pho. I think at the end of the day you can't take any of this too seriously. Wade's issue is that even in those 8 prime seasons he only played in more than 51 games in 5 of those seasons. Nash otoh averaged 76pg from 01-11. I sort of agree that maybe he should be above Curry still.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade) 

Post#82 » by Sign5 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 5:54 am

Lol at Wade dropping 6 spots since the last 100. Terrible.
He's top 25 minimum.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade) 

Post#83 » by Amares » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:48 am

Sign5 wrote:Lol at Wade dropping 6 spots since the last 100. Terrible.
He's top 25 minimum.


I think it's combination of Durant-Curry-Paul trio that surpassed him since that time, and the fact that some players that were just right behind him like Nash, Pettit, Mikan were voted higher. And I guess some pro-Wade voters missed few spots too. Still might be little strange that he's much lower than in 2017, 2014 and even 2011 projects.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade) 

Post#84 » by ShotCreator » Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:48 pm

Wade’s career is very hollow. He’s 49th all time in total win shares.

Curry is 89th.

If not for playing on championship teams, these guys would be even lower. And as their previous titles get buried in the minds of the average fan more and more with time, they’ll keep slipping.

Realistically, Paul Pierce on literally every level had at least as good a career as D-Wade. Probably better.


Kawhi just got a 29th all time vote in the other thread, he’ll never keep that reputation, but the 2019 title is making him seem better than he is.

In essence Wade should’ve never been considered top 20 all time anyway.

His prime was as recent and as good or close to several guys with better longer careers(Paul, Nash, Dirk, Kobe), but he never kept it up like them.

Basically you guys should be happy he’s even 28th on career.

But that’s the thing with these lists anyway. If we’re gonna be logical about these rankings, it’s gonna resemble more of a statistical formula like CORP or something than fun discussion.

It’ll always been fun to discuss Wade’s prime. The fact that his longevity is so overrated is a testament to that. Wade a top 20 all-time career in our minds and on an emotional level. Not really statistically.
Swinging for the fences.
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 

Post#85 » by ccameron » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:24 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:I wanted to write a short love letter to Wade after arguing against him so much.

I admire Wade as a player and team leader immensely.

I remember Wade's rookie season where he really came on as the year went along. I never seriously questioned whether he should rank ahead of the anointed LeBron/Melo during the season, but it would not be long before I came to the conclusion that Wade was the best player from the legendary 2003 draft through their first 3 NBA season.

The 2004 Olympics are now remember primarily for the US team's failure and rightly so, but one of the most interesting aspects of these national teams is seeing how the expected player ranking on the roster transforms.

The all-time thing here is the dirty secret that Charles Barkley was the best player on the Dream Team, the greatest team ever assembled, rather than Jordan.

I also remember one year where OJ Mayo got cut from the team while Eric Gordan was kept. That was a shock. To that point Mayo was still seen as the better player both in the present and for the future. When he got cut, I remember there being a lot of denial on RealGM. Either it was a mistake, or there was something very strange going on. As we look back it's just clear that Mayo really was never very good.

In 2004 the most noteworthy thing was that Wade got more run than LeBron or Melo, and I've really never seen reason to see that a mistake. (Basing the team offense around Iverson & Marbury on the other hand, HUGE mistake.)

The following year, '04-05, Shaq came to the Heat and the team became a contender. And while Wade had clearly emerged as the lead perimeter player on the team, we all wrote Wade off to some degree because of Shaq. There was a feeling that Shaq's presence was just making guards look like superstars wherever he went as nobody could be that lucky to keep having unexpected guard superstars as teammates, right? Turns out, nope, Shaq was getting incredibly lucky the whole time. Penny, Kobe, Wade - all of them were absolutely legit.

And we really realized that in the 2005 playoffs where Wade carried the team in Shaq's absence. I remember a debate at the time about who the best player in the playoffs was. Most agreed it was between Nash & Wade, which was not what any of us expected going in. I'll own up to giving my unofficial MVP vote to Shaq, rather than Nash, despite defending Nash to the heavens even at the time. I believed in Nash, but I also swallowed the narrative that Shaq was making Wade.

'05-06 comes around and the Heat are now Wade's team, and of course he delivers a championships cementing his legacy for the ages. I voted for Wade for POY in that season back when we did it, and I don't have cause to regret it. That year was always incredibly hard to come up with good rankings and other guys had arguments, but Wade certainly deserved to be in the mix.

The thing that fascinated me at the time about Wade was just how minimalist his game was. In terms of scoring, he was on the opposite end of the spectrum from Kobe. Kobe could hit any kind of shot and specialized in hitting harder shots than anyone else with virtuoso skill. Wade drove to the hoop and either shot or drew a foul, seemingly inevitably ending up with his body on the ground. Wade couldn't do all the things Kobe did, but he had this one thing, and he could do it over and over and over again. Frankly it seemed a lot smarter to me at the time!

Image

Of course, when he started having injury issues, it was hard to see this as anything other than inevitable. I was always grateful that he emerged again a couple years later back roughly to his old self.

I was impressed that he delivered LeBron to Miami. Yes LeBron does what he wants, yes Riles was part of it, yes South Beach was part of it, but fundamentally it was Wade's stature that brought the superteam to Miami.

I was also impressed with the way he took a backseat to LeBron but was ready to take back over when LeBron struggled.

As we look back on the Heatle era, while I'll say things critical due to the fact that they never truly emerged as a "best possible basketball team", they were very successful, and there was a buy-in to culture that started with Wade, which has managed to stick around ever since then. Others deserve credit for this too of course, but I thought it was telling Jimmy Butler talking about the sense of mentorship and empowerment he got from Wade. Very few players continue to have such a prominent place in a franchise after their time as a player is over, but Wade is one of that select few.


Nice write up! I get a little over-invested in discussions about players, and I have to remind myself how much am I being objective and how much am I just bothered that someone is not as high as I am on my favorite player, but I appreciate your discussion and perspective!
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Re: RealGM 2020 Top 100 Project: #28 (Dwyane Wade) 

Post#86 » by Zasterror » Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:28 pm

ShotCreator wrote:Wade’s career is very hollow. He’s 49th all time in total win shares.

Curry is 89th.

If not for playing on championship teams, these guys would be even lower. And as their previous titles get buried in the minds of the average fan more and more with time, they’ll keep slipping.

Realistically, Paul Pierce on literally every level had at least as good a career as D-Wade. Probably better.


Kawhi just got a 29th all time vote in the other thread, he’ll never keep that reputation, but the 2019 title is making him seem better than he is.

In essence Wade should’ve never been considered top 20 all time anyway.

His prime was as recent and as good or close to several guys with better longer careers(Paul, Nash, Dirk, Kobe), but he never kept it up like them.

Basically you guys should be happy he’s even 28th on career.

But that’s the thing with these lists anyway. If we’re gonna be logical about these rankings, it’s gonna resemble more of a statistical formula like CORP or something than fun discussion.

It’ll always been fun to discuss Wade’s prime. The fact that his longevity is so overrated is a testament to that. Wade a top 20 all-time career in our minds and on an emotional level. Not really statistically.

No one on this thread overrated Wade's longevity. No one EVER overrates Wade's longevity.
Pierce? C'mon bruh.

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