Nikola Jokic 21-22 Thread - 2022 NBA MVP Any thoughts?

[falcolombardi]

When Jokic is on the floor, the Nuggets have a +9.3 point differential, which would rank 1st in the league.
When Jokic is off the floor, the Nuggets have a -11.7 point differential, which would rank last in the league.

The guy turns the worst team in the league into the best team in the league when he steps on the court.

Amazing!

Where, specifically, did you find this?


Also, has anyone ever had an on/off that turned their team from first to last on the floor in NBA history?

2009 lebron , kinda

+15 on court

-6.2 off court

+21.2 net

the cavs without lebron played like the 4th worst team in the league so they were a bit less disastreous than this year nuggets

however they reached much higher heights with lebron on court than these nuggets with jokic

+15 literally would be the best team of all time vs a bottom feeder without him, the combination was good enough for a top 10 regular season of all time by srs

one od the seasons current jokic is competing with....insane stuff

[Doctor MJ]

As much as I love a showman like Embiid, there's something refreshing about a star who just says "I don't care about my 'brand', I'm just really really really good at basketball"

Isn't that something? 95% of the superstars today are engaged in ceaseless self-worship, and yet, Jokic is trouncing them all, except possibly Giannis, in overall value as a player since the beginning of last season.

not like it was anythingh different in the past lol, huge ego is a common characteristic of top athletes

Oh no, it’s much more ubiquitous today for understandable reasons. Players today have more money, more fame, more power in a profession they aimed for since they were kids. It’s a recipe for created insufferable people.

Not all players today totally fall prey to this, but I think it’s actually a challenge not to.

And yeah, I think Jokic and Giannis are clear exceptions because you can feel how they feel like they won a lottery, in no small part I’m sure because they were not raised from birth under the thrall of pro basketball and its trappings.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[nate33]

When Jokic is on the floor, the Nuggets have a +9.3 point differential, which would rank 1st in the league.
When Jokic is off the floor, the Nuggets have a -11.7 point differential, which would rank last in the league.

The guy turns the worst team in the league into the best team in the league when he steps on the court.

Amazing!

Where, specifically, did you find this?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jokicni01/on-off/2022

Also, has anyone ever had an on/off that turned their team from first to last on the floor in NBA history?

Jokic is currently +21.0.

Curry was +22.6 in 2015-16.

[ty 4191]

Jokic is currently +21.0.

Curry was +22.6 in 2015-16.

Thanks!

Does anyone know where to find this, all time, for a single season? Or, do you have to go year by year for each and every player, individually?

[Mazter]

Jokic is currently +21.0.

Curry was +22.6 in 2015-16.

Thanks!

Does anyone know where to find this, all time, for a single season? Or, do you have to go year by year for each and every player, individually?

All players above +20 from 1997 till today:

Code: Select all

     Name                   Pos  Age  Tm    Yr     Gm   Min   On/Off
1    Draymond Green         PF   25   GSW   2016   81   2808   26.3
2    Kevin Garnett          PF   26   MIN   2003   82   3321   23.6
3    Jason Kidd             PG   25   PHO   1999   50   2060   23.0
4    Jeff Hornacek          SG   33   UTA   1997   82   2592   22.7
5    Stephen Curry          PG   27   GSW   2016   79   2700   22.6
6    Karl Malone            PF   33   UTA   1997   82   2998   21.9
7    LeBron James           SF   24   CLE   2009   81   3054   21.2
8    Nikola Jokić           C    26   DEN   2022   37   1209   21.0
9    Kevin Garnett          PF   27   MIN   2004   82   3231   20.7
10   Bryon Russell          SF   26   UTA   1997   81   2525   20.6
11   Dirk Nowitzki          PF   24   DAL   2003   80   3117   20.4
12   Chris Paul             PG   29   LAC   2015   82   2857   20.3
13   Christian Laettner     PF   27   ATL   1997   82   3140   20.2


[nate33]

Jokic is currently +21.0.

Curry was +22.6 in 2015-16.

Thanks!

Does anyone know where to find this, all time, for a single season? Or, do you have to go year by year for each and every player, individually?

All players above +20 from 1997 till today:

Code: Select all

     Name                   Pos  Age  Tm    Yr     Gm   Min   On/Off
1    Draymond Green         PF   25   GSW   2016   81   2808   26.3
2    Kevin Garnett          PF   26   MIN   2003   82   3321   23.6
3    Jason Kidd             PG   25   PHO   1999   50   2060   23.0
4    Jeff Hornacek          SG   33   UTA   1997   82   2592   22.7
5    Stephen Curry          PG   27   GSW   2016   79   2700   22.6
6    Karl Malone            PF   33   UTA   1997   82   2998   21.9
7    LeBron James           SF   24   CLE   2009   81   3054   21.2
8    Nikola Jokić           C    26   DEN   2022   37   1209   21.0
9    Kevin Garnett          PF   27   MIN   2004   82   3231   20.7
10   Bryon Russell          SF   26   UTA   1997   81   2525   20.6
11   Dirk Nowitzki          PF   24   DAL   2003   80   3117   20.4
12   Chris Paul             PG   29   LAC   2015   82   2857   20.3
13   Christian Laettner     PF   27   ATL   1997   82   3140   20.2


Great stuff Mazter!

Garnett, Lebron, Dirk and Paul showing up isn't at all surprising. Draymond and Curry platooned together in 2016, which probably serve to boost both of their numbers a bit.

And that 1997 Utah team must simply have had an atrocious bench. It looks they platooned Malone, Hornacek and Russell together, and just lived with terrible production from the second unit.

I didn't realize Kidd was THAT impressive in 1999.

The winner here is Garnett. That man absolutely carried Minnesota. He is probably the best comp for what Jokic is doing right now.

[ty 4191]

All players above +20 from 1997 till today:

Code: Select all

     Name                   Pos  Age  Tm    Yr     Gm   Min   On/Off
1    Draymond Green         PF   25   GSW   2016   81   2808   26.3
2    Kevin Garnett          PF   26   MIN   2003   82   3321   23.6
3    Jason Kidd             PG   25   PHO   1999   50   2060   23.0
4    Jeff Hornacek          SG   33   UTA   1997   82   2592   22.7
5    Stephen Curry          PG   27   GSW   2016   79   2700   22.6
6    Karl Malone            PF   33   UTA   1997   82   2998   21.9
7    LeBron James           SF   24   CLE   2009   81   3054   21.2
8    Nikola Jokić           C    26   DEN   2022   37   1209   21.0
9    Kevin Garnett          PF   27   MIN   2004   82   3231   20.7
10   Bryon Russell          SF   26   UTA   1997   81   2525   20.6
11   Dirk Nowitzki          PF   24   DAL   2003   80   3117   20.4
12   Chris Paul             PG   29   LAC   2015   82   2857   20.3
13   Christian Laettner     PF   27   ATL   1997   82   3140   20.2


Excellent stuff per your usual. Matzer!

Just curious, is there a database you use to organize and sort these? Also, how important are on/off numbers when ranking how dominant or valuable a player was, to his team, in a given season? Where does it rank in the hierarchy of metrics for you?

Also, one other thing... is there any chance anyone has put together on/off or estimated on/off for seasons (or careers) prior to 1996-1997?

Thanks again!

[Mazter]

Excellent stuff per your usual. Matzer!

Just curious, is there a database you use to organize and sort these? Also, how important are on/off numbers when ranking how dominant or valuable a player was, to his team, in a given season? Where does it rank in the hierarchy of metrics for you?

Also, one other thing... is there any chance anyone has put together on/off or estimated on/off for seasons (or careers) prior to 1996-1997?

Thanks again!

No, I mainly use Excel to paste, remove, adapt and/or calculate.

Personally I think it does show value, but of course it depends of the quality of your teammates. With a deep bench it will probably be harder, if not impossible, to reach +15 or even +10. So not reaching +20 doesn't make you look bad but being able to do it when the opportunity is there certainly does make you look good.

Prior to 1996-1997 I don't think is possible. I don't even know if all games were televised and/or available back then. You would need to rewatch them all and keep track. Maybe the NBA is busy doing it, but I'm not sure.

[Clyde Frazier]

Jokic is currently +21.0.

Curry was +22.6 in 2015-16.

Thanks!

Does anyone know where to find this, all time, for a single season? Or, do you have to go year by year for each and every player, individually?

All players above +20 from 1997 till today:

Code: Select all

     Name                   Pos  Age  Tm    Yr     Gm   Min   On/Off
1    Draymond Green         PF   25   GSW   2016   81   2808   26.3
2    Kevin Garnett          PF   26   MIN   2003   82   3321   23.6
3    Jason Kidd             PG   25   PHO   1999   50   2060   23.0
4    Jeff Hornacek          SG   33   UTA   1997   82   2592   22.7
5    Stephen Curry          PG   27   GSW   2016   79   2700   22.6
6    Karl Malone            PF   33   UTA   1997   82   2998   21.9
7    LeBron James           SF   24   CLE   2009   81   3054   21.2
8    Nikola Jokić           C    26   DEN   2022   37   1209   21.0
9    Kevin Garnett          PF   27   MIN   2004   82   3231   20.7
10   Bryon Russell          SF   26   UTA   1997   81   2525   20.6
11   Dirk Nowitzki          PF   24   DAL   2003   80   3117   20.4
12   Chris Paul             PG   29   LAC   2015   82   2857   20.3
13   Christian Laettner     PF   27   ATL   1997   82   3140   20.2


I really hated watching the back to back Bulls Jazz finals as a young Knick fan, but man those older Sloan Jazz teams were a well oiled machine. When it isn't your team winning at a snail's pace it isn't much fun to watch lol... average pace in the 97 and 98 finals was 84 and 82 respectively!

[kayess]

Best player in the league. His post-game recalling the GW from memory was beautifully explained.

[TroubleS0me]

49pts bump

[TroubleS0me]

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

[Peregrine01]

The dude is a damn savant at reading the floor. He's seeing what the defense is about to do before they even do it.

[mikejames23]

This would be way more entertaining to watch if Jamal Murray and MPJ were playing. Injuries really have sucked the life out of Denver. Can't wait for everyone to be back and see what happens with this version of Jokic.

[mikejames23]

I wonder if Jokic is as good as Shaq. Everyone is afraid to say it, but the numbers are the eye tested impact are there.

[falcolombardi]

I wonder if Jokic is as good as Shaq. Everyone is afraid to say it, but the numbers are the eye tested impact are there.

imo, everyone is afraid to admit how good any given current player is

partially because we fear we are being too influence by recency bias so we may overcoreect the other way

partially because there is carefulness of not evaluating players until we have the full career to analize

[70sFan]

I wonder if Jokic is as good as Shaq. Everyone is afraid to say it, but the numbers are the eye tested impact are there.

imo, everyone is afraid to admit how good any given current player is

partially because we fear we are being too influence by recency bias so we may overcoreect the other way

partially because there is carefulness of not evaluating players until we have the full career to analize

I think we've seen enough from Jokic to call him all-time great player. Anyone who questions that, either doesn't really watch him in action or his clearly biased.

I also think we've seen enough from Jokic to say that what he does is sustainable in postseason - he's been among the best postseason performers for 3 years in a row.

Having that said, I think we should remember how high we reach when we compare him to someone like Shaq. I postulated a lot of times that you can't overcome players like Shaq in regular season. The highest level in NBA history has to be backed up by postseason performance. Jokic has been consistent throughout the playoffs, but I don't think he ever reached the GOAT level there.

Let's be honest - Jokic faced a total of 4 teams I'd call "good" on defensive end: 2020 Jazz, 2020 Clippers, 2020 Lakers and 2021 Suns. In these series, Jokic averaged:

24.5 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 3.0 tov on 51.0 FG%, 40.5 3P% and 59.7 TS%

These numbers look good, don't get me wrong - but is it on 2000-01 Shaq level? I'm not sure, Jokic didn't have absurdly dominant series against any good defensive team. He was very good vs Clippers in 2020, but he was also not that great against Suns in 2021. I don't blame him for these performances and he wasn't guilty of any Denver loss, but I'm just asking - is it enough to put him on peak Shaq level?

I hope this postseason will answer a lot of questions, although Denver has been so bad without Jokic that I don't expect a long run from him unfortunately.

[SeniorWalker]

I wonder if Jokic is as good as Shaq. Everyone is afraid to say it, but the numbers are the eye tested impact are there.

imo, everyone is afraid to admit how good any given current player is

partially because we fear we are being too influence by recency bias so we may overcoreect the other way

partially because there is carefulness of not evaluating players until we have the full career to analize

I think we've seen enough from Jokic to call him all-time great player. Anyone who questions that, either doesn't really watch him in action or his clearly biased.

I also think we've seen enough from Jokic to say that what he does is sustainable in postseason - he's been among the best postseason performers for 3 years in a row.

Having that said, I think we should remember how high we reach when we compare him to someone like Shaq. I postulated a lot of times that you can't overcome players like Shaq in regular season. The highest level in NBA history has to be backed up by postseason performance. Jokic has been consistent throughout the playoffs, but I don't think he ever reached the GOAT level there.

Let's be honest - Jokic faced a total of 4 teams I'd call "good" on defensive end: 2020 Jazz, 2020 Clippers, 2020 Lakers and 2021 Suns. In these series, Jokic averaged:

24.5 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 3.0 tov on 51.0 FG%, 40.5 3P% and 59.7 TS%

These numbers look good, don't get me wrong - but is it on 2000-01 Shaq level? I'm not sure, Jokic didn't have absurdly dominant series against any good defensive team. He was very good vs Clippers in 2020, but he was also not that great against Suns in 2021. I don't blame him for these performances and he wasn't guilty of any Denver loss, but I'm just asking - is it enough to put him on peak Shaq level?

I hope this postseason will answer a lot of questions

Yep. This is essentially what I'm waiting for.

Jokic needs to have a signature series or two to establish himself, even if we're just talking about peak.

Totally blown away by the guy though, in general. If he were on a different franchise (or perhaps more in line with the NBA/Disney corporate offices desired image of a player) perhaps Jokic would experience a more "catered-to" NBA career and have greater success.

But I'm glad he is who he is.

[falcolombardi]

I wonder if Jokic is as good as Shaq. Everyone is afraid to say it, but the numbers are the eye tested impact are there.

imo, everyone is afraid to admit how good any given current player is

partially because we fear we are being too influence by recency bias so we may overcoreect the other way

partially because there is carefulness of not evaluating players until we have the full career to analize

I think we've seen enough from Jokic to call him all-time great player. Anyone who questions that, either doesn't really watch him in action or his clearly biased.

I also think we've seen enough from Jokic to say that what he does is sustainable in postseason - he's been among the best postseason performers for 3 years in a row.

Having that said, I think we should remember how high we reach when we compare him to someone like Shaq. I postulated a lot of times that you can't overcome players like Shaq in regular season. The highest level in NBA history has to be backed up by postseason performance. Jokic has been consistent throughout the playoffs, but I don't think he ever reached the GOAT level there.

Let's be honest - Jokic faced a total of 4 teams I'd call "good" on defensive end: 2020 Jazz, 2020 Clippers, 2020 Lakers and 2021 Suns. In these series, Jokic averaged:

24.5 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 3.0 tov on 51.0 FG%, 40.5 3P% and 59.7 TS%

These numbers look good, don't get me wrong - but is it on 2000-01 Shaq level? I'm not sure, Jokic didn't have absurdly dominant series against any good defensive team. He was very good vs Clippers in 2020, but he was also not that great against Suns in 2021. I don't blame him for these performances and he wasn't guilty of any Denver loss, but I'm just asking - is it enough to put him on peak Shaq level?

I hope this postseason will answer a lot of questions, although Denver has been so bad without Jokic that I don't expect a long run from him unfortunately.

in fairness, those teams, particularly the 2020 lakers are more like "elite" defenses, merely good may undersell them a bit

is still a fair point however

[Peregrine01]

I wonder if Jokic is as good as Shaq. Everyone is afraid to say it, but the numbers are the eye tested impact are there.

imo, everyone is afraid to admit how good any given current player is

partially because we fear we are being too influence by recency bias so we may overcoreect the other way

partially because there is carefulness of not evaluating players until we have the full career to analize

I think we've seen enough from Jokic to call him all-time great player. Anyone who questions that, either doesn't really watch him in action or his clearly biased.

I also think we've seen enough from Jokic to say that what he does is sustainable in postseason - he's been among the best postseason performers for 3 years in a row.

Having that said, I think we should remember how high we reach when we compare him to someone like Shaq. I postulated a lot of times that you can't overcome players like Shaq in regular season. The highest level in NBA history has to be backed up by postseason performance. Jokic has been consistent throughout the playoffs, but I don't think he ever reached the GOAT level there.

Let's be honest - Jokic faced a total of 4 teams I'd call "good" on defensive end: 2020 Jazz, 2020 Clippers, 2020 Lakers and 2021 Suns. In these series, Jokic averaged:

24.5 ppg, 10.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 3.0 tov on 51.0 FG%, 40.5 3P% and 59.7 TS%

These numbers look good, don't get me wrong - but is it on 2000-01 Shaq level? I'm not sure, Jokic didn't have absurdly dominant series against any good defensive team. He was very good vs Clippers in 2020, but he was also not that great against Suns in 2021. I don't blame him for these performances and he wasn't guilty of any Denver loss, but I'm just asking - is it enough to put him on peak Shaq level?

I hope this postseason will answer a lot of questions, although Denver has been so bad without Jokic that I don't expect a long run from him unfortunately.

I think Jokic might be better than Shaq offensively. IMO, where Shaq separates himself a lot more is defense...he just took up so much space in the paint in an era where the paint was still the key to every offense.