2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread

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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#81 » by itsxtray » Mon Apr 18, 2022 11:51 pm

Outside wrote:Certain media and others around the Suns have pushed a narrative in recent weeks that Devin Booker should be in the top tier of MVP candidates. It seems to be a reductive argument that:

Phoenix was the best team in the league by a wide margin
One of the key qualities of an MVP candidate is helping his team win
The best team in the league by a wide margin deserves to have an MVP candidate
Booker was the Suns' best player
Therefore Booker should be at the top of the MVP candidate list

I get that, and Booker had an excellent season, but it wasn't to the level of impact of other MVP candidates. Phoenix is an excellent team, but their success is due to a deep, well-constructed roster playing an excellent system with chemistry and fit on both ends of the floor. It is not a system built around Booker's singular talent, unlike Milwaukee with Giannis, Philly with Embiid, and Denver with Jokic. There are not set criteria for what makes an MVP, but those players in those systems are going to look more like what an MVP is expected to look like than Booker in Phoenix.

Compare these two statlines:

Curry
64 games
25.5 pts
5.2 reb
6.3 ast
3.2 tov
1.3 stl
.601 TS%
4.40 LEBRON
9.60 LEBRON wins added
6.3 RAPTOR
+8.5 RAPTOR on/off
10.5 RAPTOR WAR

Booker
68 games
26.8 pts
5.0 reb
4.8 ast
2.4 tov
1.1 stl
.576 TS%
2.70 LEBRON
7.70 LEBRON wins added
4.7 RAPTOR
+3.4 RAPTOR on/off
9.2 RAPTOR WAR

The narrative for Curry was that he was MVP-level for first third of the season, fell off after that, and had his worst shooting season in memory, yet by the numbers, he had a "better" season than Booker, and Curry isn't even mentioned in the MVP discussion anymore.

I don't want to hate on Booker. I really like him as a player, I loved his attitude and grit during the playoffs last season -- the way he reacted and responded to Beverly breaking his nose was exceptional and exemplified his toughness as a player and his refusal to accept even the notion of an excuse. I like his personality. I'd love to have him on my team. I also get the idea that Phoenix being so outstanding and not having an MVP candidate looks "disrespectful," but the Suns' success doesn't mean they automatically have an MVP candidate. Booker deserves to be in some tier of the MVP discussion, just not the top tier.

Yep, this is just a symptom of people not being able to understand that as much as individuals can move the needle in basketball compared to other team sports that basketball at it's core is still a team sport. Which means that great teams come in all shapes and sizes, just b/c your team had the best record in the league doesn't mean someone on it was mvp level, they came together as a unit and thrived, which in some ways is even more impressive than a team winning with a bonafied tier 1 mvp candidate.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#82 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 19, 2022 6:33 pm

Image

So, I appreciate seeing where NBA official voters are with this graphic. Some thoughts right now with this in mind:

POY (~ MVP): Giannis/Embiid/Jokic

Giannis, Embiid & Jokic are MVP-level players so I'm fine with the love they are giving, but I'm going to mention Jayson Tatum & Steph Curry.

The recurring theme here is that it matters to me a great deal that I see signs that you are carrying your team in the +/- if I'm going to elevate you above guys with better records.

Over in the East, all those pointers point to Tatum over Giannis & Embiid. Am I saying that I currently consider Tatum a better player than Giannis or Embiid? No I'm skeptical too. But this was not a year where an MVP candidate with a good supporting cast - which Giannis clearly has, and Embiid had once Harden got acquired - should be struggling to get to 50 wins. Giannis & Embiid have in the past been much clear cut +/- impactors than this year, and while I think they are both better all around players than they used to be, I think their MVP candidacy got too much slack cut.

And I go to Curry because in the end, he played about as much as Giannis & Embiid did, but with more clear cut signs of his impact.

Looking forward, and now with Denver getting killed in the first 2 games against GS, it'll be interested to see where I end up with Jokic. Last year he was my MVP but he was a soft MVP for me. He ended up 2nd on my POY, but honestly he could have easily fallen further if I saw the right candidate.

This year Jokic has been just incredible, and I will not move him down lightly...but I have to acknowledge I've never voted for a guy getting beat down soundly in the 1st round. We'll see how it plays out.

I think Coby Altman in Cleveland deserves love for a variety of smart things, though I'll say that the Mobley pick was the biggest thing, and he was the obvious choice.

By contrast Masai Ujiri's pick of Scottie Barnes once again makes him look a step ahead of everyone else.

Tempted to give some love to Memphis (Zachary Kleiman), but haven't thought through what's appropriate for a '21-22 award.

Also, how about Brad Stevens in Boston? He was right even about firing himself as coach and hiring his replacement to better connect with his players.
DPOY: Bridges/Gobert/Smart

I really have no problem with any of these inclusions, though I was surprised that Bam Adeabyo didn't make the 3 finalists as I had been thinking he had the best chance of beating Smart for DPOY.

Perhaps more than any other award, this is the one that I'm finding my opinion tends to change dramatically come playoff time. We seem to be seeing a clear trend where some great RS defenses feel like balloons ready to be popped in the PS, with the Utah Jazz being the face of this.

My opinion about what this says about Gobert as a candidate is still evolving. On the one hand, I do get that when the Jazz defense gets trounced it's not about attacking Gobert, but about attacking the perimeter players they've chosen to surround Gobert with, built with a philosophy that Gobert's so good at defense that offense is the priority on the other guys.

On the other hand, the entire league seems to have a clear sense for how to attack the Jazz defense now, and when they do in the playoffs, it's not a situation where the defense still looks a lot better with Gobert out there compared to when he isn't. And this is where my achievement-oriented perspective looms large.

Let's consider a future where the Jazz let Gobert go, and he goes to a new team where he becomes the best defender on an elite playoff defense. (Some may call that impossible, but I'm not so sure.) Were this to occur many would call it validation for Gobert and his DPOYs, and in one sense I'd agree. But from a perspective of what you actually achieved in the year in question, that would be about that year, not about previous years. It would end up helping Gobert's ranking on my GOAT list, but to win my DPOY, I'm probably going to have to be impressed by Utah's Playoff D.

I have no problem with Smart winning DPOY given the weak competition, but I kinda doubt he'll be my All-Season DPOY. In the end, probably I'm going to find some *taller* man to be the more valuable defender on the biggest stage. Aside from Giannis or Embiid, Bam comes to mind here. If the Heat make a deep run on his back, he'll be a strong candidate for me.

I'm happy to see Bridges get love, but I also find it to be a bit funny. Because Paul & Booker are the team's offensive stars, it's natural to say that the guy who plays more MPG, plays more games, and has a better +/-, must be the defensive star...but while Booker is certainly a good defender, I think the reality is that he's having really solid impact on both sides of the ball rather than being a guy racking up his impact predominantly on defense.

To mention one more guy: Draymond Green. I still think he's the best defender in the world when healthy, and I think what he's doing to Jokic right now is just one more amazing accomplishment. If the Warriors make a deep run with Draymond being Draymond, he may end up topping my list.

ROY: Barnes/Cunningham/Mobley

Well, I'm a bit bummed right now because I was hoping we'd get to see Barnes & Mobley do their thing in the 1st Round. As it stands, it's looking like the results here are basically set.

With that said, I still haven't made up my mind. I think Barnes & Mobley both have good arguments.

MIP: Darius/Ja/Dejounte

If we're going just by the regular season, to me this is clearly Darius Garland. Incredible leap forward from the previous year.

Ja Morant is the most incredible NBA body to watch in a very long time. Seriously, he's like Iverson meets Jordan. If Ja ends up becoming the best player in the world, it's going to be very, very good for basketball popularity. Look forward to seeing what he can do in the playoffs, if he's going to win this award, it's going to be on the back of a Ja-dropping post-season performance.

Dejounte Murray? Meh. So Pop decided to let one guy do all the things and thereby squeezed one more all-star out of his career even as the team stayed on the treadmill. Great. To me Murray is a guy who might be an MIP candidate next year.

The other guy really on my mind at the moment is Jordan Poole. For him to win, he'd have to keep something like this up in a deep playoff run, but my goodness to the Warriors look scary right now.

Oh also: Anthony Edwards. If he ends up, say, leading the Wolves past the Grizz, he's going to be a major candidate here I think.

6MOY: Herro/Johnson/Love

Honestly, this is an award that's also shaped heavily by the post-season for me, and I tend not to pay too much attention until then. Herro seems like the choice so far, Johnson also makes sense.

I kinda doubt Love ends up on my ballot when all is said and done given that his team is already out and I tend to ask "If he's so good, shouldn't he start?" about 6th Men on middling teams, but I'm really happy for him. I was a big fan of Love from the UCLA days, constantly talked him up in the Minny days, and defended him in the LeBron years even as I was disappointed. I still believe that the Cavs could have been better post-LeBron if they'd just built everything around Love instead of giving the ball to Sexton, but his behavior during this time made it hard to want to defend him any more. Seeing him embrace the 6th Man role this year said really good things about where he is now and going forward.

If there was an award for the former star who is not embracing a reasonable post-prime role, Love would be high on that list. (While his former Bruin teammate Westbrook would be the anti-thesis of it.)

COY: Jenkins/Spoelstra/Williams

Yup, that's the trio right now. All 3 COY worthy through the regular season.

I expect Monty Williams to win the actual COY because those fools gave it to Thibs last year and now they need to make up for it...but as someone who voted Monty last year, he's also in the lead for COY right now. But as coach of the team with by far the best record in the league, good chance he won't take the #1 spot if his team doesn't win it all.

For Jenkins, all depends on how the Grizz take to the playoffs now. If they were to lose to Minny, he'd totally fall off my ballot...but in the name of Ja, I hope that doesn't happen.

Spoelstra is a made man and will be a strong candidate as long as the Heat look good in the playoffs.

The list of other guys who can crash the part is essentially the list of coaches with teams still playing, but I'll shout out 2 guys:

Ime Udoka. Obvious choice I think. If Boston continues to look like the best team in the world through the post-season like they did once they gained traction in the RS, the award is his.

Steve Kerr. All it would take is the Warriors looking like the Warriors again through the playoffs. Probably means at least a Conference Finals appearance to get him in the Top 3, but that is a very real possibility.

On the other two All-Season awards that either aren't given by the NBA (OPOY) or aren't included in their list of finalists (EOY):

OPOY: Jokic/Young/Curry

To me Nikola Jokic has been the clear cut best offensive player of the regular season, and I think that surprises no one.

I think Trae Young is the only other guy who I see as having a case against Jokic so far this year. The man really is a genius out there.

Hard to know where to place Curry for a number of reasons, but while I do think Curry deserves some praise for the contribution to the Warrior D, I do still think that some of that apparent defensive impact is coming from his offensive threat. When Curry is at his best, I still think he's the most impactful offensive player in the world, and so the root to him being my OPOY when all is said and done is clear.

I'm going to leave my list just those 3 names as frankly they are the ones that stick out to me the most. Playoffs will be a big deal obviously, but I wanted to specifically talk about the Utah Jazz.

They had the best offense in the league, with Donovan Mitchell being the clear OPOY candidate of the bunch. So, why don't I feel like like Mitchell is a serious candidate here? I'm not going to answer that question, but just leave it for folks to chew on.

EOY: is hard, I'm just going to talk it through.

Let me first shout out Arturas Karnisovas of the Chicago Bulls. So long as the Bulls had a good enough season, he's the guy who I'd written in in pencil as my choice here because I loved the addition of the Lakers' defensive backcourt, and DeMar DeRozan looked better than ever after I turned my nose up at that acquisition. Arturas was right about something I was wrong about, and in general, I tend to feel a need to give EOY (and COY) love to guys making moves that showed they knew better than me.

But as low as I was on the DeRozan signing, it's not that I said "The Bulls are going to suck." I was in the "They can make the playoffs, but they'll be 1st Round fodder with money focused on aging players. No thanks." And in the end, I wasn't wrong about that. Yeah they had injuries, but their SRS even before the injuries implied they weren't a tier above my prediction.

So we'll see what happens, maybe he'll still be on my ballot, maybe not.

Looking at the NBA GM survey from the start of the season, they focused on Kyle Lowry (MIA), Russell Westbrook (LAL), Spencer Dinwiddie (WAS), Valanciunas (NOH).

The Lowry signing was good, and another feather in the cap of Pat Riley.

The Westbrook move was ungodly stupid, but we know that at the time. The fact that the NBA execs didn't realize this shows that they still haven't caught up to us in some analytical ways, which is rather amusing.

Dinwiddie ended up not even working out for Washington whose best move was getting rid of Westbrook...but I'm not big on giving EOY love to a franchise for simply undoing their previous mistake.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#83 » by falcolombardi » Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:19 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Image

So, I appreciate seeing where NBA official voters are with this graphic. Some thoughts right now with this in mind:

POY (~ MVP): Giannis/Embiid/Jokic

Giannis, Embiid & Jokic are MVP-level players so I'm fine with the love they are giving, but I'm going to mention Jayson Tatum & Steph Curry.

The recurring theme here is that it matters to me a great deal that I see signs that you are carrying your team in the +/- if I'm going to elevate you above guys with better records.

Over in the East, all those pointers point to Tatum over Giannis & Embiid. Am I saying that I currently consider Tatum a better player than Giannis or Embiid? No I'm skeptical too. But this was not a year where an MVP candidate with a good supporting cast - which Giannis clearly has, and Embiid had once Harden got acquired - should be struggling to get to 50 wins.


not disagreeing but embiid only had harden for like a quarter of the season

it would make more sense to say maxey and harris are better help than jokic's
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#84 » by falcolombardi » Tue Apr 19, 2022 7:28 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Image

So, I appreciate seeing where NBA official voters are with this graphic. Some thoughts right now with this in mind:

POY (~ MVP): Giannis/Embiid/Jokic

Giannis, Embiid & Jokic are MVP-level players so I'm fine with the love they are giving, but I'm going to mention Jayson Tatum & Steph Curry.

The recurring theme here is that it matters to me a great deal that I see signs that you are carrying your team in the +/- if I'm going to elevate you above guys with better records.

Over in the East, all those pointers point to Tatum over Giannis & Embiid. Am I saying that I currently consider Tatum a better player than Giannis or Embiid? No I'm skeptical too. But this was not a year where an MVP candidate with a good supporting cast - which Giannis clearly has, and Embiid had once Harden got acquired - should be struggling to get to 50 wins.


not disagreeing but embiid only had harden for like a quarter of the season

it would make more sense to say maxey and harris are better help than jokic's
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#85 » by Doctor MJ » Tue Apr 19, 2022 8:45 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Image

So, I appreciate seeing where NBA official voters are with this graphic. Some thoughts right now with this in mind:

POY (~ MVP): Giannis/Embiid/Jokic

Giannis, Embiid & Jokic are MVP-level players so I'm fine with the love they are giving, but I'm going to mention Jayson Tatum & Steph Curry.

The recurring theme here is that it matters to me a great deal that I see signs that you are carrying your team in the +/- if I'm going to elevate you above guys with better records.

Over in the East, all those pointers point to Tatum over Giannis & Embiid. Am I saying that I currently consider Tatum a better player than Giannis or Embiid? No I'm skeptical too. But this was not a year where an MVP candidate with a good supporting cast - which Giannis clearly has, and Embiid had once Harden got acquired - should be struggling to get to 50 wins.


not disagreeing but embiid only had harden for like a quarter of the season

it would make more sense to say maxey and harris are better help than jokic's


Point taken, what I meant was that the expectation was that with Harden's arrival Philly would gain ground, not coast to the 4 seed to avoid having to play the Nets.

To be honest, Jokic had a major advantage over Embiid regardless, but I had frankly expected that with the addition of Harden Philly ought to have been able to rise up in a conference with such weak competition for the top couple slots and was disappointed.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#86 » by CKRT » Thu Apr 21, 2022 4:16 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Image

So, I appreciate seeing where NBA official voters are with this graphic. Some thoughts right now with this in mind:

POY (~ MVP): Giannis/Embiid/Jokic

Giannis, Embiid & Jokic are MVP-level players so I'm fine with the love they are giving, but I'm going to mention Jayson Tatum & Steph Curry.

The recurring theme here is that it matters to me a great deal that I see signs that you are carrying your team in the +/- if I'm going to elevate you above guys with better records.

Over in the East, all those pointers point to Tatum over Giannis & Embiid. Am I saying that I currently consider Tatum a better player than Giannis or Embiid? No I'm skeptical too. But this was not a year where an MVP candidate with a good supporting cast - which Giannis clearly has, and Embiid had once Harden got acquired - should be struggling to get to 50 wins.


not disagreeing but embiid only had harden for like a quarter of the season

it would make more sense to say maxey and harris are better help than jokic's


Point taken, what I meant was that the expectation was that with Harden's arrival Philly would gain ground, not coast to the 4 seed to avoid having to play the Nets.

To be honest, Jokic had a major advantage over Embiid regardless, but I had frankly expected that with the addition of Harden Philly ought to have been able to rise up in a conference with such weak competition for the top couple slots and was disappointed.


Harden is clearly still not 100% though. That hamstring needs another off season to [maybe] get back to normal.

Speaking of hamstrings, really hope Booker’s hamstring is alright. Really hoping for a full strength Suns vs Warriors
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#87 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:13 am

POY is starting to look like a mess. Jokic is still at the top spot but I doubt he'll be able to hold on if the Nuggets do in all likelihood get beaten convincingly by the Warriors. Luka and Booker are both missing games already. Even though Embiid just had a great game, he did start typically slow again in the first two games. Celtics look strong but Tatum isn't really seperating himself from his teammates yet. I guess Giannis is doing the best for now but he's also facing down an unexpected 1-1 against a depleted Bulls squad. Could the likes of Curry, CP3, Ja, Butler play a role with a deep run? Still seems like everything is to play for.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#88 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:38 pm

Pretty confident my POY vote will end up being GIannis unless, I come away higher on Jokic's P&R defense. Not that Jokic is particularly bad or anything, but Giannis has so much versatility in terms of potential scheme that you can use him in. I also was leaning Giannis in terms of the best player in the league to begin with.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#89 » by Texas Chuck » Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:40 pm

I'm not changing any of my positions on players based on 2 playoff games personally.....
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#90 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu Apr 21, 2022 1:44 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:POY is starting to look like a mess. Jokic is still at the top spot but I doubt he'll be able to hold on if the Nuggets do in all likelihood get beaten convincingly by the Warriors. Luka and Booker are both missing games already. Even though Embiid just had a great game, he did start typically slow again in the first two games. Celtics look strong but Tatum isn't really seperating himself from his teammates yet. I guess Giannis is doing the best for now but he's also facing down an unexpected 1-1 against a depleted Bulls squad. Could the likes of Curry, CP3, Ja, Butler play a role with a deep run? Still seems like everything is to play for.


Embiid had 31 points on 9-16 shooting in the 2nd game (had a super dominant first quarter on 100% shooting), and then he had another efficient 30 plus points tonight although he only at 5 points at half.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#91 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 2:05 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:POY is starting to look like a mess. Jokic is still at the top spot but I doubt he'll be able to hold on if the Nuggets do in all likelihood get beaten convincingly by the Warriors. Luka and Booker are both missing games already. Even though Embiid just had a great game, he did start typically slow again in the first two games. Celtics look strong but Tatum isn't really seperating himself from his teammates yet. I guess Giannis is doing the best for now but he's also facing down an unexpected 1-1 against a depleted Bulls squad. Could the likes of Curry, CP3, Ja, Butler play a role with a deep run? Still seems like everything is to play for.


Embiid had 31 points on 9-16 shooting in the 2nd game (had a super dominant first quarter on 100% shooting), and then he had another efficient 30 plus points tonight although he only at 5 points at half.


I'm aware Embiid scored an efficient 31 points in game 2. Are you also aware Embiid had a +- of +7, which ranks 6th among 76ers players (Harris +23, Maxey +22, Green +18, Harden +17, Reed +8)? Are you aware Embiid had 4 turnovers with 0 assists? You're aware Embiid had a negative BPM in game 2? And I guess you're also aware that even after game 3, Embiid still has a lower gamescore across the series than Jokic has against the Warriors (20.5 vs 20.3)?

There is more to a good performance than just scoring.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#92 » by LukaTheGOAT » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:14 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:POY is starting to look like a mess. Jokic is still at the top spot but I doubt he'll be able to hold on if the Nuggets do in all likelihood get beaten convincingly by the Warriors. Luka and Booker are both missing games already. Even though Embiid just had a great game, he did start typically slow again in the first two games. Celtics look strong but Tatum isn't really seperating himself from his teammates yet. I guess Giannis is doing the best for now but he's also facing down an unexpected 1-1 against a depleted Bulls squad. Could the likes of Curry, CP3, Ja, Butler play a role with a deep run? Still seems like everything is to play for.


Embiid had 31 points on 9-16 shooting in the 2nd game (had a super dominant first quarter on 100% shooting), and then he had another efficient 30 plus points tonight although he only at 5 points at half.


I'm aware Embiid scored an efficient 31 points in game 2. Are you also aware Embiid had a +- of +7, which ranks 6th among 76ers players (Harris +23, Maxey +22, Green +18, Harden +17, Reed +8)? Are you aware Embiid had 4 turnovers with 0 assists? You're aware Embiid had a negative BPM in game 2? And I guess you're also aware that even after game 3, Embiid still has a lower gamescore across the series than Jokic has against the Warriors (20.5 vs 20.3)?

There is more to a good performance than just scoring.


Are you aware single-game plus-minus is highly volatile? Are you aware that it is very possible the box-score underrated the value of Embiid's rim-protection? Are you aware my statement had nothing to do with Jokic?
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#93 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:33 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Dutchball97 wrote:
LukaTheGOAT wrote:
Embiid had 31 points on 9-16 shooting in the 2nd game (had a super dominant first quarter on 100% shooting), and then he had another efficient 30 plus points tonight although he only at 5 points at half.


I'm aware Embiid scored an efficient 31 points in game 2. Are you also aware Embiid had a +- of +7, which ranks 6th among 76ers players (Harris +23, Maxey +22, Green +18, Harden +17, Reed +8)? Are you aware Embiid had 4 turnovers with 0 assists? You're aware Embiid had a negative BPM in game 2? And I guess you're also aware that even after game 3, Embiid still has a lower gamescore across the series than Jokic has against the Warriors (20.5 vs 20.3)?

There is more to a good performance than just scoring.


Are you aware single-game plus-minus is highly volatile? Are you aware that it is very possible the box-score underrated the value of Embiid's rim-protection? Are you aware my statement had nothing to do with Jokic?


So what if single game +- is volatile? Does that mean you're going to completely dismiss it? I'm of the opinion we should take as many factors as possible into account to get the closest snapshot of reality we possibly can and the single game +- is simply another indicator that Embiid probably didn't have as good of a game as people are claiming. Having a negative +- when your whole team has a negative +- doesn't say much, a bench unit having a better +- than the starters happens sometimes because they also play against the opposing teams' bench but when an entire starting line-up has a positive +- in a decisive win but the supposed best player has a significantly lower +- than the other starters isn't it fair to at least ask questions about it?

It is very possible the boxscore stats underrate the value of Embiid's rim protection but do you have anything that points in that direction? Like do you have tracking data that shows Embiid's presence at the rim had a significant impact on the Raptors' shots around the rim? Personally I look at the 76ers having an impressive 12 blocks among 6 different players but Embiid not being among those 6 players as something that makes me doubt his impact at the rim. Is it possible the majority of those blocks only happened because of Embiid's presence? Definitely but I'd like to see some statistical evidence or possibly video of the blocks showing this to be true because "it is very possible" is just guessing and no real rebuttal.

I only mentioned Jokic because everyone seems to be convinced he's been playing terribly in the first 2 games but Jokic still grades out as good or better in certain advanced stats. Seemed to me like the best example to use to get my point across.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#94 » by HeartBreakKid » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:38 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I'm not changing any of my positions on players based on 2 playoff games personally.....

It wouldn't be a POY discussion if you didn't change your rankings after every game :wink:
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#95 » by Dutchball97 » Thu Apr 21, 2022 3:46 pm

HeartBreakKid wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I'm not changing any of my positions on players based on 2 playoff games personally.....

It wouldn't be a POY discussion if you didn't change your rankings after every game :wink:


Joking aside I'd say reevaluating after a play-off series is over is probably how I'll be going around it. 4-7 games still isn't an ideal sample size but it's better than 1 game.

Kyrie especially has just been ridiculously inconsistent over these first 2 games. Having 19 BPM and 36 Gamescore is about as good as it gets but then game 2 he comes in with -9.7 BPM and 4.3 Gamescore. It's pretty much impossible to say which of these performances is more representative of Kyrie's average level.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#96 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Apr 21, 2022 6:03 pm

Dutchball97 wrote:POY is starting to look like a mess. Jokic is still at the top spot but I doubt he'll be able to hold on if the Nuggets do in all likelihood get beaten convincingly by the Warriors. Luka and Booker are both missing games already. Even though Embiid just had a great game, he did start typically slow again in the first two games. Celtics look strong but Tatum isn't really seperating himself from his teammates yet. I guess Giannis is doing the best for now but he's also facing down an unexpected 1-1 against a depleted Bulls squad. Could the likes of Curry, CP3, Ja, Butler play a role with a deep run? Still seems like everything is to play for.


When stuff feels like a mess mid-season, I recommend taking a step back from the analysis and just try to take everything in without worrying about rankings.

I see real value in not trying to constantly adjust ranked list.

But yes, some guys have stood out, and probably no top tier player has had a rougher go of it than my favorite Joker. :(

Re: Tatum isn't really separating himself from his teammates yet. Well, his work guarding KD has been really impressive to me. I think that's clearly taking a toll on his offense, but I value what he's doing out there.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#97 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu Apr 21, 2022 7:48 pm

Miami is an interesting place. I don't think they can win a title. But like those old 90s Pacers clubs I think they could ruin a legitimate title contender's season.

Riley has had a historic career, worthy of the Hall of Fame, even if it only began in New York. He has a lot of virtues but is biggest, and this may seem like faint praise but it isn't, he's an excellent manager. Some examples that come to mind:

He's flexible. The way the Knicks played and the Heat in the Zo era do not resemble the way Showtime or the current Heat played. He saw Daly had devised a scheme that work and adopted it. He jettisoned it very quickly when it no longer did. Compare that to the many coaches who insist on running the same scheme no matter the talent on the roster. Or compare him to his old rival Phil Jackson who in his old age didn't seem to recognize it was the motion that made the triangle effective not the triangle making motion offense effective.

He's open to persuasion from his subordinates. As an example, he famously preferred Bosh or Kaman, can't remember which, over Wade in the draft. Key scouts said Wade was the better talent and to go with him. He listened to them, it paid off and Miami flourished. The opposite end of the spectrum here is David Kahn who wanted to kick out Kevin Love for being drafted by his predecessor.

He's decisive and despite his famous ego, he mostly avoids it influencing his decisions. The best example of that is his coaching career in the aughts. A lot of people are cynical about him firing himself as coach in 2003. I have a more charitable take. He recognized his ability to reach players was slipping and hired a very capable subordinate to take over for him. He only stepped into the coaching chair again when career coach killer Shaq nuked SVG. Perhaps the best example of his decisiveness was getting rid of Shaq as quickly as possible once the slippage was visible. Once that was done he replaced himself again with another talented subordinate with full support.

Bob Quinn when he took over the Lions fired Jim Caldwell after a 9-7 season in which the Lions overachieved. He did it because he wanted to hire his guy in Matt Patricia. The team regressed right back into the basement. Riley wanted to hire his video coordinator from the Knicks but NY said no. He was stuck with Spo. Rather than view him as an interim he elevated him steadily through the organization when he realized his capabilities.

None of this is the sign of a basketball genius. I don't think he's made any significant tactical insights to the game and instead mostly adopted ideas from others. Nor have I ever seen a great scouts eye from Riley. But the strengths he has are what you are looking for in an executive.

He famously left New York via Fax when the Heat gave him the keys to the kingdom. As a Knicks fan, I'll always wonder what he could have done if given that power with NYC as a talent magnet. It is very possible NY would once again be the center of the basketball world.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#98 » by sp6r=underrated » Thu Apr 21, 2022 10:19 pm

Texas Chuck wrote:I'm not changing any of my positions on players based on 2 playoff games personally.....


One of my least popular stance is you need years of playoff data and even then you still need to way the RS more than the PS.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#99 » by Texas Chuck » Fri Apr 22, 2022 12:31 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:
Texas Chuck wrote:I'm not changing any of my positions on players based on 2 playoff games personally.....


One of my least popular stance is you need years of playoff data and even then you still need to way the RS more than the PS.


Everyone can weigh things however they want. If 2 games of the 1st round carry more weight to someone than 82 of the RS, I'm not stopping them

But for me? 2 games isn't enough for me to make some of the proclamations I'm seeing itt and on this board. I freely admit I'm usually the last guy to something. I'm not the guy calling AD GOAT midway through his 3rd season or calling Luka the next Lebron after year 2. I'm the guy still skeptical of Steph as he's being named unanimous MVP. :)

So I understand I'm an extreme of wanting a lot more data before declaring a player or team the greatest or fundamentally flawed. I also realize that makes me not a lot of fun at times.

Still. Not pushing Jokic off my POY ballot yet nor Gobert off my DPOY one either. And not sorry one bit about it.
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Re: 2021-22 RealGM All-Season Awards - Discussion Thread 

Post#100 » by Lou Fan » Fri Apr 22, 2022 8:48 pm

Honestly if I voted (not sure if I can or will) I think Jokic would be my POY even if he was swept out of first round unless Curry, Giannis, or Joel have an insane postseason. Maaaaaaaaaybe Tatum if he goes absolutely nuclear.
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