RealGM Greatest Peaks Project (2022): #1 - 1990-91 Michael Jordan

[Gregoire]

Once again just for initiate discussion about peak Jordan vs LeBron I post some thoughts on this comparison/

If we compare peak MJ and peak LeBron in there areas (give each of them scores from 1 to 10):

- scoring overall
- playmaking overall
- passing
- slashing
- iso-scoring
- gravity and creating own shot
- finishing
- "clutch" play
- 3pt
- handles
- post scoring
- midrange jumper
- FT
- off-ball play
- transition offense
- overall offensive impact
- man defense
- help defense
- transition defense
- PnR defense
- overall defensive impact


Let's see...

peak Jordan: scoring - 10, playmaking - 8 (due to gravity effect); slashing - 10 (what makes Michael the GOAT here is he was already making the move before even getting the ball, or he knew what to do with it; he rarely hesitated with the ball; he is probably the player in NBA history who took the least time thinking whether to shoot, post-up, drive or do something else with it); iso scoring - 10; gravity - 10, finishing - 9, clutch - 10; 3 pt - 7 (if he played in a more modern setting with more of an emphasis on the 3-point shot, he would have the volume to make younger fans realize he was not a "poor 3-point shooter"); handles - 9 (only PGs have better handles, I seriously consider changing this to a 10 but I am worried it will look like I'm mindlessly giving him 10s all across the board); post scoring - 10; midrange jumper - 10 (best ever, like in so many categories); FT - 9; off the ball - 10 (seriously, young fans just don't get this part of Jordan's game - he could play like Harden and average 37/7/7, but he was the best off-the-ball wing ever, and that version of him became the GOAT); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 10; man defense - 10; help defense - 10; transition defense - 9, PnR - 10; defensive impact - 9.

peak LeBron: scoring - 9 (splitting hairs - he deserves to be a 10 even though he's significantly below Jordan and he had years that people consider "peak" where he was clearly below 10); playmaking - 9 (see note below); slashing - 10 (what I don't like here is him as an off the ball slasher but I feel this will be shown in the off the ball category); iso scoring - 9; gravity - 8, finishing - 10, clutch - 9 (I would never rank young LeBron 9 in this category which shows once again how much he developed as a player; for all the talk how sometimes the pass was the right play, he literally passed on every chance to shoot; however, he expanded his game and got in the mentality that he was asked to score, not to run some elaborate play); 3pt - 8; handles - 9; post scoring - 8 (for all the improvement he underwent in this category, his post game is still too rudimentary, he doesn't have all the counters and various moves that made Jordan and Kobe for instance able to live almost exclusively in this area); midrange jumper - 8 (somewhat surprisingly, his stand-still 3-point shot is better than his mid-range, that's why he gets such a high score in the 3pt category); FT - 7, off the ball - 7 (one of the biggest knocks on LeBron's game, and I don't even know if 7 is too high, I just don't wanna look like a hater); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 9,5 ; man defense - 9; help defense - 10; transition - 10, PnR - 8; defensive impact - 9.

Note on LeBron's playmaking: Despite him being special because of his playmaking (of course on top of all the other attributes), I can't put him on the same level as Magic, or Chris Paul, or John Stockton, or the few select god-tier playmakers. LeBron's playmaking was one of the features of the so-called "LeBron ball". He would make passes to shooters and basically make his teams play his offense. I would like to point out that since he leaded (quite comfortably and honestly, unexpectedly) the league in assists this season, the most important addition he's made to his passing game is the "touchdown pass" over the length of the court which is in fact a huge weapon as the Lakers score so many points in transition and most importantly, create additional transition opportunities that are naturally not there. Still, this is not enough for me to call LeBron a fully-rounded playmaker and thus, give him a 10.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Once again just for initiate discussion about peak Jordan vs LeBron I post some thoughts on this comparison/

If we compare peak MJ and peak LeBron in there areas (give each of them scores from 1 to 10):

- scoring overall
- playmaking overall
- passing
- slashing
- iso-scoring
- gravity and creating own shot
- finishing
- "clutch" play
- 3pt
- handles
- post scoring
- midrange jumper
- FT
- off-ball play
- transition offense
- overall offensive impact
- man defense
- help defense
- transition defense
- PnR defense
- overall defensive impact


Let's see...

peak Jordan: scoring - 10, playmaking - 8 (due to gravity effect); slashing - 10 (what makes Michael the GOAT here is he was already making the move before even getting the ball, or he knew what to do with it; he rarely hesitated with the ball; he is probably the player in NBA history who took the least time thinking whether to shoot, post-up, drive or do something else with it); iso scoring - 10; gravity - 10, finishing - 9, clutch - 10; 3 pt - 7 (if he played in a more modern setting with more of an emphasis on the 3-point shot, he would have the volume to make younger fans realize he was not a "poor 3-point shooter"); handles - 9 (only PGs have better handles, I seriously consider changing this to a 10 but I am worried it will look like I'm mindlessly giving him 10s all across the board); post scoring - 10; midrange jumper - 10 (best ever, like in so many categories); FT - 9; off the ball - 10 (seriously, young fans just don't get this part of Jordan's game - he could play like Harden and average 37/7/7, but he was the best off-the-ball wing ever, and that version of him became the GOAT); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 10; man defense - 10; help defense - 10; transition defense - 9, PnR - 10; defensive impact - 9.

peak LeBron: scoring - 9 (splitting hairs - he deserves to be a 10 even though he's significantly below Jordan and he had years that people consider "peak" where he was clearly below 10); playmaking - 9 (see note below); slashing - 10 (what I don't like here is him as an off the ball slasher but I feel this will be shown in the off the ball category); iso scoring - 9; gravity - 8, finishing - 10, clutch - 9 (I would never rank young LeBron 9 in this category which shows once again how much he developed as a player; for all the talk how sometimes the pass was the right play, he literally passed on every chance to shoot; however, he expanded his game and got in the mentality that he was asked to score, not to run some elaborate play); 3pt - 8; handles - 9; post scoring - 8 (for all the improvement he underwent in this category, his post game is still too rudimentary, he doesn't have all the counters and various moves that made Jordan and Kobe for instance able to live almost exclusively in this area); midrange jumper - 8 (somewhat surprisingly, his stand-still 3-point shot is better than his mid-range, that's why he gets such a high score in the 3pt category); FT - 7, off the ball - 7 (one of the biggest knocks on LeBron's game, and I don't even know if 7 is too high, I just don't wanna look like a hater); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 9,5 ; man defense - 9; help defense - 10; transition - 10, PnR - 8; defensive impact - 9.

Note on LeBron's playmaking: Despite him being special because of his playmaking (of course on top of all the other attributes), I can't put him on the same level as Magic, or Chris Paul, or John Stockton, or the few select god-tier playmakers. LeBron's playmaking was one of the features of the so-called "LeBron ball". He would make passes to shooters and basically make his teams play his offense. I would like to point out that since he leaded (quite comfortably and honestly, unexpectedly) the league in assists this season, the most important addition he's made to his passing game is the "touchdown pass" over the length of the court which is in fact a huge weapon as the Lakers score so many points in transition and most importantly, create additional transition opportunities that are naturally not there. Still, this is not enough for me to call LeBron a fully-rounded playmaker and thus, give him a 10.

Did you see my intitial response to your post on them?

I think lebron probably didn’t make the grade A connections at the same consistency that Nash did but I do think come playoff time he managed the floor/positioned people better as a floor general vs running the offense and making the right reads


My issues still come with the defense here though

[MyUniBroDavis]

I guess another issue I have is, so we define peak as which player was the best, or which season was the best?

[Proxy]

Question for people choosing MJ -

If we had data demonstrating that MJ at his best had a comparable defensive impact (in terms of DRAPM, or defense on/off the court, or other data) to Kobe, how would it impact your selection of his early 90s seasons as GOAT peak?

A great question to be asked.

So first, broadly: You better believe I take this data seriously when I get access to it. Getting access to the 76er dataset (thank to you I believe!) was eye-opening about Dr. J, and it has lowered his standing on my lists.

I will zag back in the other direction to emphasize that such data doesn't remove the end-accomplishments of the players involved. If the team just keeps winning when you're out there running the show all the way to the chip, well, that's your job. Beating the other team by as many points as possible, by contrast, is not the goal

But lastly:

I'm a bit surprised people (because someone else mentioned this possibility recently) are talking as if we have no data along these lines. It's not a question, for example, whether Jordan ever had a regular season +/- north of Kobe's best, because we have data from Jordan's last 2 years in Chicago, and that already settles the matter.

We also have access to regular season +/- data back through '93-94, and that gives us enough so that we already know that Jordan led his team in +/- at least as many times as Kobe did - Kobe did it 3 times in his career, Jordan did it in '95-96, '96-97 & '97-98.

So yeah, while it's within the realm of possibility that Kobe-like tendencies will result in +/- data underrating Jordan's total contribution, there's nothing like the "Whoa, Kobe really doesn't look that impactful by these metrics?" thing I detect for Jordan.

Great points! Using CORP +/- (not perfect but an easily accessible and stable metric with offensive/defensive splits), we find: peak defense MJ had +1.25 on defense, overall peak MJ had +1 on defense, peak defense Kobe had +1–0.5 on defense, and overall peak Kobe had +0.25 on defense. Dropping peak MJ from +1 on defense to +0.5 or +0.25 would be a loss of 0.5–0.75 points of value, which would take him beneath LeBron, Shaq, and possibly Hakeem into the next tier of players in that metric.

Also, re: the discussion on early RAPM estimates pre-97, it's certainly possible that there's systematic bias in the games saved and sampled, but at the bottom of each RAPM article they do include how the team performed in that sample relative to the season, which gives us at least a little more context.

For example, in the 1991 RAPM estimates (https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/), we have 38 regular season games where the Bulls were on pace to underperform their full-season results by ~3 games. That's a small difference, though it's hard to know how MJ's individual performance in these games compares to his full season performance. Perhaps someone could try finding some other estimate (BPM, win shares, whatever we have) for these games to compare to the full season? FWIW, the Celtics in 85 greatly underperformed in the games sampled for RAPM (they were on pace for 10 more loses in the sampled games vs their true regular season record), the Lakers in 85 also slightly underperformed, and the samples measured for superstars in 1970 so far are absolutely too small to take anything away from them.

The offense/defense values in CORP are actually just Elgee's opinions based on APM/g data(he's changed his MJ evals recently too btw for his GOAT peak series) and they are pretty arbitrary which is why he mostly emphasizes pretty broad ranges based on the data we have. I don't think they should be used in this way even tho I do somewhat agree with that conclusion if you do view him that way

[TheGOATRises007]

A great question to be asked.

So first, broadly: You better believe I take this data seriously when I get access to it. Getting access to the 76er dataset (thank to you I believe!) was eye-opening about Dr. J, and it has lowered his standing on my lists.

I will zag back in the other direction to emphasize that such data doesn't remove the end-accomplishments of the players involved. If the team just keeps winning when you're out there running the show all the way to the chip, well, that's your job. Beating the other team by as many points as possible, by contrast, is not the goal

But lastly:

I'm a bit surprised people (because someone else mentioned this possibility recently) are talking as if we have no data along these lines. It's not a question, for example, whether Jordan ever had a regular season +/- north of Kobe's best, because we have data from Jordan's last 2 years in Chicago, and that already settles the matter.

We also have access to regular season +/- data back through '93-94, and that gives us enough so that we already know that Jordan led his team in +/- at least as many times as Kobe did - Kobe did it 3 times in his career, Jordan did it in '95-96, '96-97 & '97-98.

So yeah, while it's within the realm of possibility that Kobe-like tendencies will result in +/- data underrating Jordan's total contribution, there's nothing like the "Whoa, Kobe really doesn't look that impactful by these metrics?" thing I detect for Jordan.

Great points! Using CORP +/- (not perfect but an easily accessible and stable metric with offensive/defensive splits), we find: peak defense MJ had +1.25 on defense, overall peak MJ had +1 on defense, peak defense Kobe had +1–0.5 on defense, and overall peak Kobe had +0.25 on defense. Dropping peak MJ from +1 on defense to +0.5 or +0.25 would be a loss of 0.5–0.75 points of value, which would take him beneath LeBron, Shaq, and possibly Hakeem into the next tier of players in that metric.

Also, re: the discussion on early RAPM estimates pre-97, it's certainly possible that there's systematic bias in the games saved and sampled, but at the bottom of each RAPM article they do include how the team performed in that sample relative to the season, which gives us at least a little more context.

For example, in the 1991 RAPM estimates (https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/), we have 38 regular season games where the Bulls were on pace to underperform their full-season results by ~3 games. That's a small difference, though it's hard to know how MJ's individual performance in these games compares to his full season performance. Perhaps someone could try finding some other estimate (BPM, win shares, whatever we have) for these games to compare to the full season? FWIW, the Celtics in 85 greatly underperformed in the games sampled for RAPM (they were on pace for 10 more loses in the sampled games vs their true regular season record), the Lakers in 85 also slightly underperformed, and the samples measured for superstars in 1970 so far are absolutely too small to take anything away from them.

The offense/defense values in CORP are actually just Elgee's opinions based on APM/g data(he's changed his MJ evals recently too btw for his GOAT peak series) and they are pretty arbitrary which is why he mostly emphasizes pretty broad ranges based on the data we have. I don't think they should be used in this way even tho I do somewhat agree with that conclusion if you do view him that way

He has a new GOAT peaks list?

[Proxy]

Great points! Using CORP +/- (not perfect but an easily accessible and stable metric with offensive/defensive splits), we find: peak defense MJ had +1.25 on defense, overall peak MJ had +1 on defense, peak defense Kobe had +1–0.5 on defense, and overall peak Kobe had +0.25 on defense. Dropping peak MJ from +1 on defense to +0.5 or +0.25 would be a loss of 0.5–0.75 points of value, which would take him beneath LeBron, Shaq, and possibly Hakeem into the next tier of players in that metric.

Also, re: the discussion on early RAPM estimates pre-97, it's certainly possible that there's systematic bias in the games saved and sampled, but at the bottom of each RAPM article they do include how the team performed in that sample relative to the season, which gives us at least a little more context.

For example, in the 1991 RAPM estimates (https://squared2020.com/2021/09/11/1990-1991-nba-rapm/), we have 38 regular season games where the Bulls were on pace to underperform their full-season results by ~3 games. That's a small difference, though it's hard to know how MJ's individual performance in these games compares to his full season performance. Perhaps someone could try finding some other estimate (BPM, win shares, whatever we have) for these games to compare to the full season? FWIW, the Celtics in 85 greatly underperformed in the games sampled for RAPM (they were on pace for 10 more loses in the sampled games vs their true regular season record), the Lakers in 85 also slightly underperformed, and the samples measured for superstars in 1970 so far are absolutely too small to take anything away from them.

The offense/defense values in CORP are actually just Elgee's opinions based on APM/g data(he's changed his MJ evals recently too btw for his GOAT peak series) and they are pretty arbitrary which is why he mostly emphasizes pretty broad ranges based on the data we have. I don't think they should be used in this way even tho I do somewhat agree with that conclusion if you do view him that way

He has a new GOAT peaks list?

He might've been referencing the new evals already actually, I didn't realize he gave 1989 MJ a +1.25 - I thought he changed it to 1.12(wtf really even is the difference lol) but 'new' as in the youtube project he started in like 2020 yeah

Evals are here:
https://backpicks.com/2021/06/04/scalability-curves-and-greatest-peaks-corp/#easy-footnote-bottom-8-10868

[TheGOATRises007]

The offense/defense values in CORP are actually just Elgee's opinions based on APM/g data(he's changed his MJ evals recently too btw for his GOAT peak series) and they are pretty arbitrary which is why he mostly emphasizes pretty broad ranges based on the data we have. I don't think they should be used in this way even tho I do somewhat agree with that conclusion if you do view him that way

He has a new GOAT peaks list?

He might've been referencing the new evals already actually, I didn't realize he gave 1989 MJ a +1.25 - I thought he changed it to 1.12(wtf really even is the difference lol) but 'new' as in the youtube project he started in like 2020 yeah

Evals are here:
https://backpicks.com/2021/06/04/scalability-curves-and-greatest-peaks-corp/#easy-footnote-bottom-8-10868

Isn't it the same as his YouTube series? It's around the same date.

[ardee]

You did a monster post on 2016 LeBron's defense... how much worse do you think he was in 2017 on that end?

[ardee]

Once again just for initiate discussion about peak Jordan vs LeBron I post some thoughts on this comparison/

If we compare peak MJ and peak LeBron in there areas (give each of them scores from 1 to 10):

- scoring overall
- playmaking overall
- passing
- slashing
- iso-scoring
- gravity and creating own shot
- finishing
- "clutch" play
- 3pt
- handles
- post scoring
- midrange jumper
- FT
- off-ball play
- transition offense
- overall offensive impact
- man defense
- help defense
- transition defense
- PnR defense
- overall defensive impact


Let's see...

peak Jordan: scoring - 10, playmaking - 8 (due to gravity effect); slashing - 10 (what makes Michael the GOAT here is he was already making the move before even getting the ball, or he knew what to do with it; he rarely hesitated with the ball; he is probably the player in NBA history who took the least time thinking whether to shoot, post-up, drive or do something else with it); iso scoring - 10; gravity - 10, finishing - 9, clutch - 10; 3 pt - 7 (if he played in a more modern setting with more of an emphasis on the 3-point shot, he would have the volume to make younger fans realize he was not a "poor 3-point shooter"); handles - 9 (only PGs have better handles, I seriously consider changing this to a 10 but I am worried it will look like I'm mindlessly giving him 10s all across the board); post scoring - 10; midrange jumper - 10 (best ever, like in so many categories); FT - 9; off the ball - 10 (seriously, young fans just don't get this part of Jordan's game - he could play like Harden and average 37/7/7, but he was the best off-the-ball wing ever, and that version of him became the GOAT); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 10; man defense - 10; help defense - 10; transition defense - 9, PnR - 10; defensive impact - 9.

peak LeBron: scoring - 9 (splitting hairs - he deserves to be a 10 even though he's significantly below Jordan and he had years that people consider "peak" where he was clearly below 10); playmaking - 9 (see note below); slashing - 10 (what I don't like here is him as an off the ball slasher but I feel this will be shown in the off the ball category); iso scoring - 9; gravity - 8, finishing - 10, clutch - 9 (I would never rank young LeBron 9 in this category which shows once again how much he developed as a player; for all the talk how sometimes the pass was the right play, he literally passed on every chance to shoot; however, he expanded his game and got in the mentality that he was asked to score, not to run some elaborate play); 3pt - 8; handles - 9; post scoring - 8 (for all the improvement he underwent in this category, his post game is still too rudimentary, he doesn't have all the counters and various moves that made Jordan and Kobe for instance able to live almost exclusively in this area); midrange jumper - 8 (somewhat surprisingly, his stand-still 3-point shot is better than his mid-range, that's why he gets such a high score in the 3pt category); FT - 7, off the ball - 7 (one of the biggest knocks on LeBron's game, and I don't even know if 7 is too high, I just don't wanna look like a hater); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 9,5 ; man defense - 9; help defense - 10; transition - 10, PnR - 8; defensive impact - 9.

Note on LeBron's playmaking: Despite him being special because of his playmaking (of course on top of all the other attributes), I can't put him on the same level as Magic, or Chris Paul, or John Stockton, or the few select god-tier playmakers. LeBron's playmaking was one of the features of the so-called "LeBron ball". He would make passes to shooters and basically make his teams play his offense. I would like to point out that since he leaded (quite comfortably and honestly, unexpectedly) the league in assists this season, the most important addition he's made to his passing game is the "touchdown pass" over the length of the court which is in fact a huge weapon as the Lakers score so many points in transition and most importantly, create additional transition opportunities that are naturally not there. Still, this is not enough for me to call LeBron a fully-rounded playmaker and thus, give him a 10.

LeBron's offensive ratings here only make sense if you are choosing a Miami year as his peak. In 2017 and 2018 he was absolutely a 10 on scoring, just as good as Jordan. He was basically a 34 ppg on 63.5% TS guy in the Playoffs that year... His 3pt should be a 9-9.5 as well, he shot over 41% in the 2017 Playoffs.

And if you're picking 2012 or 2013, then his defense was head and shoulders above Jordan, so having them both at 9 for overall defensive impact doesn't make sense to me.

[Gregoire]

Once again just for initiate discussion about peak Jordan vs LeBron I post some thoughts on this comparison/

If we compare peak MJ and peak LeBron in there areas (give each of them scores from 1 to 10):

- scoring overall
- playmaking overall
- passing
- slashing
- iso-scoring
- gravity and creating own shot
- finishing
- "clutch" play
- 3pt
- handles
- post scoring
- midrange jumper
- FT
- off-ball play
- transition offense
- overall offensive impact
- man defense
- help defense
- transition defense
- PnR defense
- overall defensive impact


Let's see...

peak Jordan: scoring - 10, playmaking - 8 (due to gravity effect); slashing - 10 (what makes Michael the GOAT here is he was already making the move before even getting the ball, or he knew what to do with it; he rarely hesitated with the ball; he is probably the player in NBA history who took the least time thinking whether to shoot, post-up, drive or do something else with it); iso scoring - 10; gravity - 10, finishing - 9, clutch - 10; 3 pt - 7 (if he played in a more modern setting with more of an emphasis on the 3-point shot, he would have the volume to make younger fans realize he was not a "poor 3-point shooter"); handles - 9 (only PGs have better handles, I seriously consider changing this to a 10 but I am worried it will look like I'm mindlessly giving him 10s all across the board); post scoring - 10; midrange jumper - 10 (best ever, like in so many categories); FT - 9; off the ball - 10 (seriously, young fans just don't get this part of Jordan's game - he could play like Harden and average 37/7/7, but he was the best off-the-ball wing ever, and that version of him became the GOAT); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 10; man defense - 10; help defense - 10; transition defense - 9, PnR - 10; defensive impact - 9.

peak LeBron: scoring - 9 (splitting hairs - he deserves to be a 10 even though he's significantly below Jordan and he had years that people consider "peak" where he was clearly below 10); playmaking - 9 (see note below); slashing - 10 (what I don't like here is him as an off the ball slasher but I feel this will be shown in the off the ball category); iso scoring - 9; gravity - 8, finishing - 10, clutch - 9 (I would never rank young LeBron 9 in this category which shows once again how much he developed as a player; for all the talk how sometimes the pass was the right play, he literally passed on every chance to shoot; however, he expanded his game and got in the mentality that he was asked to score, not to run some elaborate play); 3pt - 8; handles - 9; post scoring - 8 (for all the improvement he underwent in this category, his post game is still too rudimentary, he doesn't have all the counters and various moves that made Jordan and Kobe for instance able to live almost exclusively in this area); midrange jumper - 8 (somewhat surprisingly, his stand-still 3-point shot is better than his mid-range, that's why he gets such a high score in the 3pt category); FT - 7, off the ball - 7 (one of the biggest knocks on LeBron's game, and I don't even know if 7 is too high, I just don't wanna look like a hater); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 9,5 ; man defense - 9; help defense - 10; transition - 10, PnR - 8; defensive impact - 9.

Note on LeBron's playmaking: Despite him being special because of his playmaking (of course on top of all the other attributes), I can't put him on the same level as Magic, or Chris Paul, or John Stockton, or the few select god-tier playmakers. LeBron's playmaking was one of the features of the so-called "LeBron ball". He would make passes to shooters and basically make his teams play his offense. I would like to point out that since he leaded (quite comfortably and honestly, unexpectedly) the league in assists this season, the most important addition he's made to his passing game is the "touchdown pass" over the length of the court which is in fact a huge weapon as the Lakers score so many points in transition and most importantly, create additional transition opportunities that are naturally not there. Still, this is not enough for me to call LeBron a fully-rounded playmaker and thus, give him a 10.

LeBron's offensive ratings here only make sense if you are choosing a Miami year as his peak. In 2017 and 2018 he was absolutely a 10 on scoring, just as good as Jordan. He was basically a 34 ppg on 63.5% TS guy in the Playoffs that year... His 3pt should be a 9-9.5 as well, he shot over 41% in the 2017 Playoffs.

And if you're picking 2012 or 2013, then his defense was head and shoulders above Jordan, so having them both at 9 for overall defensive impact doesn't make sense to me.

Strongly disagree about:

1. In 2018 and 2017 LeBron wasnt nearly as good as peak MJ in scoring overall. I even dont need to mention that in current era its much easier to score and overall make offense.

2. No way 2013 LeBron is head and shoulders above MJ in defense. Maybe slightly and Im even not sure about it.

Overall this numbers are about 2012 and 2013 Lebron, youre right.

[Max123]

I guess another issue I have is, so we define peak as which player was the best, or which season was the best?

I personally tend to try and estimate the former which often leads to confusion in discussions with people who lean towards the latter.

[Max123]

i actually dont feel completely qualified either but i am gonna be voting the picks i feel more confident on and the pkayers i feel more knowledgeable and sure about

Wanted to continue this thread of conversation.

I don't want to claim to know what all you feel about this project, but I'll share some of my thoughts on the matter:

It's easier to judge basketball careers, and even basketball seasons, than it is the quality of actual basketball play - particularly when we do so cross-era back to eras none of us were able to witness to the level we could claim to be experts.

When we do Peak conversations like we do, we're doing an obviously imperfect job and putting out limited understandings of basketball's subtle things potentially on full display.

It can really inhibit us - particularly if people are being confrontational.

But as with other projects we do on this board, I believe the process of thinking through something like this to the best of our ability is worthwhile for us and those who may read our thoughts and use them to develop their own ideas.

Additionally, I think we have to reckon with the fact that when it comes to fervent historical basketball analysis, the people we really want to defer to are all either a) dead or b) temporarily not dead. While we need to be able to laugh at ourselves in recognition of how much we know we'll always be missing, I think we also need to cut ourselves some slack as we recognize that there are very few communities out there that have learned as much about the history of the game as we have, and while it can be argued that we're silly for our ranking-based approach, if it means that stars of yesteryear gets discussed in ways they otherwise would not, I think there's something poignant about that.

This to say: I don't actually think being too knowledge-less should be a reason to DQ someone from the voter pool. The important thing is just that they are sincere in trying (researching and thinking), and trying to be sincere (positive, curious, etc).

I didn’t realize it was a qualification thing lol

I feel there’s been less discussion than like the year I joined (2015 I think lol) vs more kind of place a ballot and dip kind of thing now, but maybe I’m just tripping

It feels like most of it early on was which lebron year is his peak lol

On a side note, I do think there’s a bit of a kind of, general consensuses on the site that I think are a result of just the general discussion that has been had, which of course is normal but a large deviation feels weird to say in projects like these sometimes (I think people would barf on my thoughts on Kawhi lol)

Do you have your thoughts on Kawhi written out somewhere? I would be very interested in hearing them.

[MyUniBroDavis]

You did a monster post on 2016 LeBron's defense... how much worse do you think he was in 2017 on that end?

Idk I wasn’t paying as much attention that year, he seemed a tad bit slower, Curry was blowing by him a bit even tho obv it’s Curry

I’d still say he was quite decent, his rapm, how the team did without him, playoff team defense pre Warriors and his on/off there all imply he was good

I’d assume lebrons playoff defense that year was still solid, but I’d have his 2016 finals over his 2017 finals because of defense for sure even tho no one can guard Durant ofc.

If I were to put it

Jordan 91
+8 offense/+1 defense
Playoff lebron 16
+6.5 offense/+3.5 defense
Playoff lebron 17
+9 offense/+1.5 defense

Probably something like that. He was definately still physically capable of good defense, his 2020 defensive impact in the RS was probably his best, in the playoffs it was up there too

[MyUniBroDavis]

Once again just for initiate discussion about peak Jordan vs LeBron I post some thoughts on this comparison/

If we compare peak MJ and peak LeBron in there areas (give each of them scores from 1 to 10):

- scoring overall
- playmaking overall
- passing
- slashing
- iso-scoring
- gravity and creating own shot
- finishing
- "clutch" play
- 3pt
- handles
- post scoring
- midrange jumper
- FT
- off-ball play
- transition offense
- overall offensive impact
- man defense
- help defense
- transition defense
- PnR defense
- overall defensive impact


Let's see...

peak Jordan: scoring - 10, playmaking - 8 (due to gravity effect); slashing - 10 (what makes Michael the GOAT here is he was already making the move before even getting the ball, or he knew what to do with it; he rarely hesitated with the ball; he is probably the player in NBA history who took the least time thinking whether to shoot, post-up, drive or do something else with it); iso scoring - 10; gravity - 10, finishing - 9, clutch - 10; 3 pt - 7 (if he played in a more modern setting with more of an emphasis on the 3-point shot, he would have the volume to make younger fans realize he was not a "poor 3-point shooter"); handles - 9 (only PGs have better handles, I seriously consider changing this to a 10 but I am worried it will look like I'm mindlessly giving him 10s all across the board); post scoring - 10; midrange jumper - 10 (best ever, like in so many categories); FT - 9; off the ball - 10 (seriously, young fans just don't get this part of Jordan's game - he could play like Harden and average 37/7/7, but he was the best off-the-ball wing ever, and that version of him became the GOAT); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 10; man defense - 10; help defense - 10; transition defense - 9, PnR - 10; defensive impact - 9.

peak LeBron: scoring - 9 (splitting hairs - he deserves to be a 10 even though he's significantly below Jordan and he had years that people consider "peak" where he was clearly below 10); playmaking - 9 (see note below); slashing - 10 (what I don't like here is him as an off the ball slasher but I feel this will be shown in the off the ball category); iso scoring - 9; gravity - 8, finishing - 10, clutch - 9 (I would never rank young LeBron 9 in this category which shows once again how much he developed as a player; for all the talk how sometimes the pass was the right play, he literally passed on every chance to shoot; however, he expanded his game and got in the mentality that he was asked to score, not to run some elaborate play); 3pt - 8; handles - 9; post scoring - 8 (for all the improvement he underwent in this category, his post game is still too rudimentary, he doesn't have all the counters and various moves that made Jordan and Kobe for instance able to live almost exclusively in this area); midrange jumper - 8 (somewhat surprisingly, his stand-still 3-point shot is better than his mid-range, that's why he gets such a high score in the 3pt category); FT - 7, off the ball - 7 (one of the biggest knocks on LeBron's game, and I don't even know if 7 is too high, I just don't wanna look like a hater); transition offense - 10; offensive impact - 9,5 ; man defense - 9; help defense - 10; transition - 10, PnR - 8; defensive impact - 9.

Note on LeBron's playmaking: Despite him being special because of his playmaking (of course on top of all the other attributes), I can't put him on the same level as Magic, or Chris Paul, or John Stockton, or the few select god-tier playmakers. LeBron's playmaking was one of the features of the so-called "LeBron ball". He would make passes to shooters and basically make his teams play his offense. I would like to point out that since he leaded (quite comfortably and honestly, unexpectedly) the league in assists this season, the most important addition he's made to his passing game is the "touchdown pass" over the length of the court which is in fact a huge weapon as the Lakers score so many points in transition and most importantly, create additional transition opportunities that are naturally not there. Still, this is not enough for me to call LeBron a fully-rounded playmaker and thus, give him a 10.

LeBron's offensive ratings here only make sense if you are choosing a Miami year as his peak. In 2017 and 2018 he was absolutely a 10 on scoring, just as good as Jordan. He was basically a 34 ppg on 63.5% TS guy in the Playoffs that year... His 3pt should be a 9-9.5 as well, he shot over 41% in the 2017 Playoffs.

And if you're picking 2012 or 2013, then his defense was head and shoulders above Jordan, so having them both at 9 for overall defensive impact doesn't make sense to me.

Strongly disagree about:

1. In 2018 and 2017 LeBron wasnt nearly as good as peak MJ in scoring overall. I even dont need to mention that in current era its much easier to score and overall make offense.

2. No way 2013 LeBron is head and shoulders above MJ in defense. Maybe slightly and Im even not sure about it.

Overall this numbers are about 2012 and 2013 Lebron, youre right.

Again, 2016 lebrons defense is probably head and shoulders above MJs, there isn’t really much supporting MJ having anywhere near the defensive impact youre describing

Did we get into an argument and you blocked me or something lol I’m not asking out of spite I’m genuinely curious because I feel I’m being ignored rn lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

Wanted to continue this thread of conversation.

I don't want to claim to know what all you feel about this project, but I'll share some of my thoughts on the matter:

It's easier to judge basketball careers, and even basketball seasons, than it is the quality of actual basketball play - particularly when we do so cross-era back to eras none of us were able to witness to the level we could claim to be experts.

When we do Peak conversations like we do, we're doing an obviously imperfect job and putting out limited understandings of basketball's subtle things potentially on full display.

It can really inhibit us - particularly if people are being confrontational.

But as with other projects we do on this board, I believe the process of thinking through something like this to the best of our ability is worthwhile for us and those who may read our thoughts and use them to develop their own ideas.

Additionally, I think we have to reckon with the fact that when it comes to fervent historical basketball analysis, the people we really want to defer to are all either a) dead or b) temporarily not dead. While we need to be able to laugh at ourselves in recognition of how much we know we'll always be missing, I think we also need to cut ourselves some slack as we recognize that there are very few communities out there that have learned as much about the history of the game as we have, and while it can be argued that we're silly for our ranking-based approach, if it means that stars of yesteryear gets discussed in ways they otherwise would not, I think there's something poignant about that.

This to say: I don't actually think being too knowledge-less should be a reason to DQ someone from the voter pool. The important thing is just that they are sincere in trying (researching and thinking), and trying to be sincere (positive, curious, etc).

I didn’t realize it was a qualification thing lol

I feel there’s been less discussion than like the year I joined (2015 I think lol) vs more kind of place a ballot and dip kind of thing now, but maybe I’m just tripping

It feels like most of it early on was which lebron year is his peak lol

On a side note, I do think there’s a bit of a kind of, general consensuses on the site that I think are a result of just the general discussion that has been had, which of course is normal but a large deviation feels weird to say in projects like these sometimes (I think people would barf on my thoughts on Kawhi lol)

Do you have your thoughts on Kawhi written out somewhere? I would be very interested in hearing them.

I will fully admit that I have an intrinsic fear of my team Kawhi than anyone else

I probably have Curry and Jokic higher peaks wise, but I would way rather play either of them vs Kawhi if he’s healthy if that makes sense

I’m not really sure what I’d say though, in terms of how I view him.

I’m definately higher than him than the peaks project was, I mean, I probably have him closer to too 15 than where he’s at. It’s weird because I do think Kobe’s def better, I think the offensive gap is bigger than the defensive gap the years kawhis offense has been great, even if kawhis more impactful I think Kobe’s just flat out better, so I can’t have him above Kobe, but I have him higher than people who might have higher peaks than Kobe, so it’s hard for me to think where to put them, but I usually just go with Kobe would be better today without adjusting much at all for that

[Gregoire]

You did a monster post on 2016 LeBron's defense... how much worse do you think he was in 2017 on that end?

Idk I wasn’t paying as much attention that year, he seemed a tad bit slower, Curry was blowing by him a bit even tho obv it’s Curry

I’d still say he was quite decent, his rapm, how the team did without him, playoff team defense pre Warriors and his on/off there all imply he was good

I’d assume lebrons playoff defense that year was still solid, but I’d have his 2016 finals over his 2017 finals because of defense for sure even tho no one can guard Durant ofc.

If I were to put it

Jordan 91
+8 offense/+1 defense
Playoff lebron 16
+6.5 offense/+3.5 defense
Playoff lebron 17
+9 offense/+1.5 defense

Probably something like that. He was definately still physically capable of good defense, his 2020 defensive impact in the RS was probably his best, in the playoffs it was up there too

My take:
Jordan 1991 9 of+2 def
Po Lebron 2016 7+3
PO Lebron 2017 8,5 +1,5

[MyUniBroDavis]

You did a monster post on 2016 LeBron's defense... how much worse do you think he was in 2017 on that end?

Idk I wasn’t paying as much attention that year, he seemed a tad bit slower, Curry was blowing by him a bit even tho obv it’s Curry

I’d still say he was quite decent, his rapm, how the team did without him, playoff team defense pre Warriors and his on/off there all imply he was good

I’d assume lebrons playoff defense that year was still solid, but I’d have his 2016 finals over his 2017 finals because of defense for sure even tho no one can guard Durant ofc.

If I were to put it

Jordan 91
+8 offense/+1 defense
Playoff lebron 16
+6.5 offense/+3.5 defense
Playoff lebron 17
+9 offense/+1.5 defense

Probably something like that. He was definately still physically capable of good defense, his 2020 defensive impact in the RS was probably his best, in the playoffs it was up there too

My take:
Jordan 1991 9 of+2 def
Po Lebron 2016 7+3
PO Lebron 2017 8,5 +1,5

I just don’t see the justification for Jordan’s defense being that high when the bulls got a tad bit better when he left and the additons weren’t particularly heralded on defenses as far as I know

I’d think playoff brons offense in 2016 is a bit better than that in comparison as well, and it’s hard for me to agree that Jordan was that much more successful offensively given the cavs dominance on that end with bron on the floor in their eastern conference run

The finals are weird because finals bron is probably more like a +5/+7 lol

Also why aren’t u responding when I quote you directly lol

[MyUniBroDavis]

When I’m trying to think of it in a series by series basis, which I understand might not be popular to some, I think it’s fair to look at it as

ECF

And then

Finals

Because the performance on both ends was so drastically different.

If one were to disagree with that then that’s fine, but saying the 2016 finals drags down his offense that playoffs, the alternative should be true that his defense in those finals should drag it up as well, and whilst he was inconsistent at worst offensively defensively I fully believe that throughout he was fantastic and that bounced up to like GOAT level BS in the last 3 games

In general I think offense>defense, but I think the drop in offense isn’t even close to that massive defensive performance

[LA Bird]

Voting for this round will close in under 24 hours (Tuesday 9am ET)

Just a reminder that votes for different seasons by the same player are not grouped together at the end of the round.
LeBron's peak season is currently split between six years so anyone who has LeBron on their ballot are advised to rank 09 LeBron and 13 LeBron too if they haven't done so in their vote already.

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[giordunk]

I still always think it's literally impossible for 2009 LeBron to be the best LeBron.

So, I feel compelled to ask:

What is it that makes you feel it's impossible besides the fact his team didn't win the title?

ftr, I like the arguments being made for '15-16 LeBron, and I think '12-13 LeBron has a good case too, so I'm not necessarily looking to advocate for '08-09 LeBron, but I wouldn't dismiss it lightly.

I think the fact that he's a much more well-rounded player, poise, maturity, etc., Yea this is getting into the more 'romantic' parts of basketball but basketball is a sport that isn't that easy to capture with numbers and I'd quite confidently say I have a stronger quantitative background than most people on this forum who are using RAPM, BPM, and all those yada yada stats (I read all their documentation and they are all at best, weighted sums trying to capture a dynamic game of basketball).

Even the best data science/analytics teams in the world account for marginal changes in processes that are much suited to be quantified, and it's just quite hard for anyone to be able to capture something as dynamic as basketball in one stat. So there is still a lot of space for more romantic interpretations for basketball like intensity, clutchness, will to win, leadership, killer instinct, etc., etc.,

As a diehard Warriors fan I think LeBron's 3-1 comeback is pretty much enough to solidify him as the greatest of all-time and greatest peak of all-time... When it mattered the most, against the team that many people would have claimed as the greatest team of all-time had they won the title. Ya.