Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem?

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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#81 » by 70sFan » Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:54 pm

tsherkin wrote:
70sFan wrote:[q
As I said, being a 60+ TS% 30 ppg scorer in the 1970s is different than in the 2000s. Post players have far more space, they could generate more efficient shots and they were allowed to be more physical on offensive end. Agree to disagree, but to me Kareem was clearly more efficient scorer than Shaq when you take everything into consideraiton.



Right, but Shaq only played a couple of relevant seasons in the 2000s, so this isn't a material argument where Shaq was concerned.

He was drafted in 1992. He had his peak in 2000. He had about 2 or 3 more relevant seasons as a high-volume scorer before that last season in LA with Malone and Payton, then to Miami to be #2 to Wade.

And again, "clearly more efficient" is fine. Kareem has an evident efficiency advantage because he was a legendary shot maker and a competent FT shooter. Shaq shot himself in the foot with his inability at the line, no doubt.

He was demonstrably not, however, "in a whole other world" in terms of efficiency. That's just hyperbole.

1990s could be argued as even easier for the post players due to illegal defense.

I agree, it was a hyperbole. Kareem has a clear edge to me, but he wasn't on another level, unless you interpret it as being on one tier ahead - then I guess you can say that.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#82 » by tsherkin » Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:23 am

70sFan wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
70sFan wrote:[q
As I said, being a 60+ TS% 30 ppg scorer in the 1970s is different than in the 2000s. Post players have far more space, they could generate more efficient shots and they were allowed to be more physical on offensive end. Agree to disagree, but to me Kareem was clearly more efficient scorer than Shaq when you take everything into consideraiton.



Right, but Shaq only played a couple of relevant seasons in the 2000s, so this isn't a material argument where Shaq was concerned.

He was drafted in 1992. He had his peak in 2000. He had about 2 or 3 more relevant seasons as a high-volume scorer before that last season in LA with Malone and Payton, then to Miami to be #2 to Wade.

And again, "clearly more efficient" is fine. Kareem has an evident efficiency advantage because he was a legendary shot maker and a competent FT shooter. Shaq shot himself in the foot with his inability at the line, no doubt.

He was demonstrably not, however, "in a whole other world" in terms of efficiency. That's just hyperbole.

1990s could be argued as even easier for the post players due to illegal defense.

I agree, it was a hyperbole. Kareem has a clear edge to me, but he wasn't on another level, unless you interpret it as being on one tier ahead - then I guess you can say that.


My entire point was that the phrasing was hyperbolic, nothing beyond that point ;)
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#83 » by falcolombardi » Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:46 am

tsherkin wrote:
70sFan wrote:
tsherkin wrote:

Right, but Shaq only played a couple of relevant seasons in the 2000s, so this isn't a material argument where Shaq was concerned.

He was drafted in 1992. He had his peak in 2000. He had about 2 or 3 more relevant seasons as a high-volume scorer before that last season in LA with Malone and Payton, then to Miami to be #2 to Wade.

And again, "clearly more efficient" is fine. Kareem has an evident efficiency advantage because he was a legendary shot maker and a competent FT shooter. Shaq shot himself in the foot with his inability at the line, no doubt.

He was demonstrably not, however, "in a whole other world" in terms of efficiency. That's just hyperbole.

1990s could be argued as even easier for the post players due to illegal defense.

I agree, it was a hyperbole. Kareem has a clear edge to me, but he wasn't on another level, unless you interpret it as being on one tier ahead - then I guess you can say that.


My entire point was that the phrasing was hyperbolic, nothing beyond that point ;)


Seems like a semantics debate tbh

At the end of the day kareem was just a significatively more efficient scorer than shaq regardless of how we call the difference
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#84 » by tsherkin » Mon Nov 28, 2022 8:53 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
Seems like a semantics debate tbh

At the end of the day kareem was just a significatively more efficient scorer than shaq regardless of how we call the difference


I can't say I agree with that. He was a little more efficient, and he looked better relative to his league environment, I'll give you that, but particularly if you look at what he was doing pre-Magic, the gap really isn't significant, as I demonstrated. You have to really sell that it was a lot harder to play in the post in the 70s compared to what he was doing in the 90s for that to come forth and I don't really agree with that either.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#85 » by 70sFan » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:09 pm

tsherkin wrote:You have to really sell that it was a lot harder to play in the post in the 70s compared to what he was doing in the 90s for that to come forth and I don't really agree with that either.

I think that's very defensible statement - less space, lack of illegal defense, more allowance of physicality from offensive players. 1990s rules look like they were created for post players, that's not the case for the 1970s basketball at all.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#86 » by falcolombardi » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:20 pm

tsherkin wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Seems like a semantics debate tbh

At the end of the day kareem was just a significatively more efficient scorer than shaq regardless of how we call the difference


I can't say I agree with that. He was a little more efficient, and he looked better relative to his league environment, I'll give you that, but particularly if you look at what he was doing pre-Magic, the gap really isn't significant, as I demonstrated. You have to really sell that it was a lot harder to play in the post in the 70s compared to what he was doing in the 90s for that to come forth and I don't really agree with that either.


I think you are not adding these two thinghs up.

That small 1.5%~ true shooting gap is a lot bigger when you remember kareem (pre-magic) prime happened in a tougher to score league with even less spacing and no illegal D rules to help him out like they did for most of shaq prime

Shaq scoring prime was from 1994 to 2003

28 points on 58.5 true shooting (+6) over league average on the regular season

28 points on 57.0 true shooting (+4.5) in the playoffs

Kareem scoring prime from 71-80

28 points on 59.0 ts% (+9) over league average in reg season

30 points on 56.5 ts% (+6.5) in the playoffs

Is a significant gap regardless of what terms we use to describe it
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#87 » by tsherkin » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:23 pm

falcolombardi wrote:That small 1.5%~ true shooting gap is a lot bigger when you remember kareem (pre-magic) prime happened in a tougher to score league with even less spacing and no illegal D rules to help him out like they did for most of shaq prime


Having watched a pretty decent number of games with Kareem and Shaq both, I can't really agree that it looked a lot more challenging for him to get to his shot or face help defense than it did for Shaq, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#88 » by falcolombardi » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:27 pm

tsherkin wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:That small 1.5%~ true shooting gap is a lot bigger when you remember kareem (pre-magic) prime happened in a tougher to score league with even less spacing and no illegal D rules to help him out like they did for most of shaq prime


Having watched a pretty decent number of games with Kareem and Shaq both, I can't really agree that it looked a lot more challenging for him to get to his shot or face help defense than it did for Shaq, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


Shaq had more spacing to work with than kareem, i dont see how that is arguable or subjective

Shaq had an advantage over kareem when posting up because teams had to be more careful when crowding and needed commit to hard doubles because of illegal D rules

Again i dont see how that is even close to subjective
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#89 » by 70sFan » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:27 pm

tsherkin wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:That small 1.5%~ true shooting gap is a lot bigger when you remember kareem (pre-magic) prime happened in a tougher to score league with even less spacing and no illegal D rules to help him out like they did for most of shaq prime


Having watched a pretty decent number of games with Kareem and Shaq both, I can't really agree that it looked a lot more challenging for him to get to his shot or face help defense than it did for Shaq, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Well, I haven't seen Shaq being soft doubled in the 1990s, because it was impossible to do so back then. Kareem faced plenty of soft doubles and triples.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#90 » by 70sFan » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:32 pm

falcolombardi wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:That small 1.5%~ true shooting gap is a lot bigger when you remember kareem (pre-magic) prime happened in a tougher to score league with even less spacing and no illegal D rules to help him out like they did for most of shaq prime


Having watched a pretty decent number of games with Kareem and Shaq both, I can't really agree that it looked a lot more challenging for him to get to his shot or face help defense than it did for Shaq, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.


Shaq had more spacing to work with than kareem, i dont see how that is arguable or subjective

Shaq had an advantage over kareem when posting up because teams had to be more careful when crowding and needed commit to hard doubles because of illegal D rules

Again i dont see how that is even close to subjective

You also need to keep in mind that Kareem didn't have the same freelance to use his strength in the post as well.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#91 » by ShaqAttac » Tue Nov 29, 2022 10:36 am

70sFan wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:That small 1.5%~ true shooting gap is a lot bigger when you remember kareem (pre-magic) prime happened in a tougher to score league with even less spacing and no illegal D rules to help him out like they did for most of shaq prime


Having watched a pretty decent number of games with Kareem and Shaq both, I can't really agree that it looked a lot more challenging for him to get to his shot or face help defense than it did for Shaq, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Well, I haven't seen Shaq being soft doubled in the 1990s, because it was impossible to do so back then. Kareem faced plenty of soft doubles and triples.

but shaq peaked in 2000s

also who passes better
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#92 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:02 am

ShaqAttac wrote:
70sFan wrote:
tsherkin wrote:
Having watched a pretty decent number of games with Kareem and Shaq both, I can't really agree that it looked a lot more challenging for him to get to his shot or face help defense than it did for Shaq, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Well, I haven't seen Shaq being soft doubled in the 1990s, because it was impossible to do so back then. Kareem faced plenty of soft doubles and triples.

but shaq peaked in 2000s

also who passes better

Early 2000s was the same environment in terms of rules though.

I prefer Kareem's passing, because he could find cutters better from what I have seen, but they are both very capable passers.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#93 » by ShaqAttac » Tue Nov 29, 2022 11:04 am

70sFan wrote:
ShaqAttac wrote:
70sFan wrote:Well, I haven't seen Shaq being soft doubled in the 1990s, because it was impossible to do so back then. Kareem faced plenty of soft doubles and triples.

but shaq peaked in 2000s

also who passes better

Early 2000s was the same environment in terms of rules though.

I prefer Kareem's passing, because he could find cutters better from what I have seen, but they are both very capable passers.
so kareem defends better and passes and scores better?

why do people say shaq peaked better
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#94 » by 70sFan » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:10 pm

ShaqAttac wrote:
70sFan wrote:
ShaqAttac wrote:but shaq peaked in 2000s

also who passes better

Early 2000s was the same environment in terms of rules though.

I prefer Kareem's passing, because he could find cutters better from what I have seen, but they are both very capable passers.
so kareem defends better and passes and scores better?

why do people say shaq peaked better

Most people didn't watch peak Kareem live and haven't seen many prime Kareem games on YT either. They mostly remember him from the Showtime Lakers times when he was very old.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#95 » by AEnigma » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:14 pm

Finals ppg + threepeat + won at his peak.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#96 » by falcolombardi » Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:09 pm

70sFan wrote:
ShaqAttac wrote:
70sFan wrote:Early 2000s was the same environment in terms of rules though.

I prefer Kareem's passing, because he could find cutters better from what I have seen, but they are both very capable passers.
so kareem defends better and passes and scores better?

why do people say shaq peaked better

Most people didn't watch peak Kareem live and haven't seen many prime Kareem games on YT either. They mostly remember him from the Showtime Lakers times when he was very old.


Also a lot of people think shaq is more of a "ceiling raiser" because he had more impact off-ball

This doesnt consider kareem efficiency and defensive advantages or assumes that kareem didnt have a ton of off ball value himself

(To say nothingh of the questionable theory behind the "off-ball>>> on- all" theorycrafting when it comes to actusl results)

Shaq does have an off-ball advantage due to his offensive rebounding and all the extra possesions he got and all the fouls he forced that way. But is a bit overstated otherwise (kareem was constantly doubled too)
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#97 » by ShaqAttac » Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:49 am

falcolombardi wrote:
70sFan wrote:
ShaqAttac wrote:so kareem defends better and passes and scores better?

why do people say shaq peaked better

Most people didn't watch peak Kareem live and haven't seen many prime Kareem games on YT either. They mostly remember him from the Showtime Lakers times when he was very old.


Also a lot of people think shaq is more of a "ceiling raiser" because he had more impact off-ball

This doesnt consider kareem efficiency and defensive advantages or assumes that kareem didnt have a ton of off ball value himself

(To say nothingh of the questionable theory behind the "off-ball>>> on- all" theorycrafting when it comes to actusl results)

Shaq does have an off-ball advantage due to his offensive rebounding and all the extra possesions he got and all the fouls he forced that way. But is a bit overstated otherwise (kareem was constantly doubled too)

well enig said that kareem "impact" on great teams looks amazing too
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#98 » by falcolombardi » Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:15 pm

ShaqAttac wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
70sFan wrote:Most people didn't watch peak Kareem live and haven't seen many prime Kareem games on YT either. They mostly remember him from the Showtime Lakers times when he was very old.


Also a lot of people think shaq is more of a "ceiling raiser" because he had more impact off-ball

This doesnt consider kareem efficiency and defensive advantages or assumes that kareem didnt have a ton of off ball value himself

(To say nothingh of the questionable theory behind the "off-ball>>> on- all" theorycrafting when it comes to actusl results)

Shaq does have an off-ball advantage due to his offensive rebounding and all the extra possesions he got and all the fouls he forced that way. But is a bit overstated otherwise (kareem was constantly doubled too)

well enig said that kareem "impact" on great teams looks amazing too


For sure, kareem was a monster on both ends
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#99 » by 70sFan » Sun Dec 4, 2022 1:43 pm

70sFan wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:On the topic of peak Kareem, does anyone have any links to full quarters/halves/games for peak Kareem (1977 or 1974, preferably postseason)?

There used to be a full game on YouTube of the Lakers vs the Blazers in the 77 playoffs, but that appears to be no longer available :cry: .

I do, I will post them here tomorrow.

Sorry for being a week late :banghead:

I start with 1977 Lakers games, but if you'd like to see 1978 Lakers or even Bucks games, feel free to ask.

Game 1 vs Blazers



Game 2 vs Warriors

Spoiler:
youtu.be/rpGGQ-V8zNE
youtu.be/nQJaLTckhgA
youtu.be/r4Qa_CYJ9eo
youtu.be/rEQX2gwKqEw
youtu.be/4LIFUDFpdjg
youtu.be/fgAtXZiyd50
youtu.be/HisWiboKH6A
youtu.be/hwiKB1e1MQQ
youtu.be/IYXC9GZKhpA
youtu.be/Iy6Z4jUj_KY
youtu.be/26PaqRxHM9U
youtu.be/TvYcMXbBRgI


Game 3 vs Warriors

https://youtu.be/fZWSHszgrpw

Game 5 vs Warriors



Game 6 vs Warriors

https://youtu.be/YjWMyJUHAM8

That's for a start, if you want more just let me know.
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Re: Better in the Post: Shaq or Kareem? 

Post#100 » by falcolombardi » Sun Dec 4, 2022 6:22 pm

70sFan wrote:
70sFan wrote:
DraymondGold wrote:On the topic of peak Kareem, does anyone have any links to full quarters/halves/games for peak Kareem (1977 or 1974, preferably postseason)?

There used to be a full game on YouTube of the Lakers vs the Blazers in the 77 playoffs, but that appears to be no longer available :cry: .

I do, I will post them here tomorrow.

Sorry for being a week late :banghead:

I start with 1977 Lakers games, but if you'd like to see 1978 Lakers or even Bucks games, feel free to ask.

Game 1 vs Blazers



Game 2 vs Warriors

Spoiler:
youtu.be/rpGGQ-V8zNE
youtu.be/nQJaLTckhgA
youtu.be/r4Qa_CYJ9eo
youtu.be/rEQX2gwKqEw
youtu.be/4LIFUDFpdjg
youtu.be/fgAtXZiyd50
youtu.be/HisWiboKH6A
youtu.be/hwiKB1e1MQQ
youtu.be/IYXC9GZKhpA
youtu.be/Iy6Z4jUj_KY
youtu.be/26PaqRxHM9U
youtu.be/TvYcMXbBRgI


Game 3 vs Warriors

https://youtu.be/fZWSHszgrpw

Game 5 vs Warriors



Game 6 vs Warriors

https://youtu.be/YjWMyJUHAM8

That's for a start, if you want more just let me know.


Thanks a lot for these!

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