What impact metrics show MJ as a GOAT candidate?

[Heej]

Lol @ "2 All Stars, 2 All Stars, 2 All Stars" versus "one man band" cause Terry Porter happened to have his only non-all star pick between 91 and 93. Way to show your knowledge of the Blazers begins and ends with the Shrug Game.

Oh ok my fault. 18ppg Terry Porter now makes them an elite finals contender . Here We have a weak MVP candidate and a weak all star, surely this is a team that dominates in the modern era.

Shrug game or not 25ppg on 40% shooting from your best player is highly indicative of a weak finals contender. People act like it's a meme when we say Jordan faced below average competition and this is the type of team they try to prop up

[70sFan]

2022 Celtics - 2 20ppg scorers, DPOY, and overall deep roster. Started off slow and went 33-10 to end the season. I'd put them at about average. JT+JB probably play Clyde and Terry Porter to a relative standstill but the Celtics had a better rotation

Do they have a better rotation? Portland wasn't known for being a two-stars team, it was a very deep and talented roster with excellent bench. I'd say these two are on similar level.

2021 Suns - 2 All Stars, deep roster, nuff said. Actually was a fairly dominant team then choked.

Again, this description suits 1992 Blazers perfectly as well.

2019 Warriors - LOL at actually comparing that squad to the Blazers even without KD. Still had 2 all stars and championship continuity

No KD, injured Klay - it's closer to 1991 Lakers than 1992 Blazers to me.

2018 Cavs - Weak Finals contender but LeBron was literally playing at GOAT level. I'd still barely take the Cavs here but that series could go either way

2018 Cavs are horrible outside of James. It would be the weakest MJ opponent except for injured Lakers.

Only team Portland might be better than there is the 2018 Cavs and even then Bron probably dominates them and likely takes it if they get late in the series.

You also forgot about 2020 Heat of course, which is one of the weakest finalists in the last 40 years.

Now comparing the rest of the decade. I'm taking 2011 Heat, 2012 Thunder, 2013 Spurs, 2014 Heat over them. With 2015 Cavs playing out similar to 2018 except better defensively and worse offensively.

2015 Cavs with no Kyrie and Love? Seriously?
2014 Heat that collapsed in the finals due to injuries and age?

You are not objective here...

So the blazers would be in like the bottom 3 in like a decade+ of runner ups? Yeah, I think summing up their one man band with defensive role players and Terry Porter being Clyde's 2nd option as weak sounds about right.

This team was way better than that. They had Kersey, Williams, Robinson and Ainge who were all legit impact players.

I'd take them over 2014 Heat, 2015 injured Cavs, 2018 Cavs, 2019 injured Warriors and 2020 Heat. 2012 Thunder, 2021 Suns and 2022 Celtics are on similar level. 2011 Heat, 2013 Spurs, 2016 Warriors, 2017 Cavs are likely better. That makes them in 5-7 range, which is average.

[70sFan]

Lol @ "2 All Stars, 2 All Stars, 2 All Stars" versus "one man band" cause peak Terry Porter happened to have his only non-all star pick between 1991 and 1993. Way to show your knowledge of the Blazers begins and ends with the Shrug Game.

Not to mention that he fails to mention that Blazers was full of good players at that time. It wasn't just a two stars duo carrying weak roster.

[Jaivl]

Lol @ "2 All Stars, 2 All Stars, 2 All Stars" versus "one man band" cause peak Terry Porter happened to have his only non-all star pick between 1991 and 1993. Way to show your knowledge of the Blazers begins and ends with the Shrug Game.

Not to mention that he fails to mention that Blazers was full of good players at that time. It wasn't just a two stars duo carrying weak roster.

Two stars, a perennial All-D guy, deep bench... The more I think about it the more it sounds like a stronger (relative to era) 2021 Suns.

[70sFan]

Lol @ "2 All Stars, 2 All Stars, 2 All Stars" versus "one man band" cause peak Terry Porter happened to have his only non-all star pick between 1991 and 1993. Way to show your knowledge of the Blazers begins and ends with the Shrug Game.

Not to mention that he fails to mention that Blazers was full of good players at that time. It wasn't just a two stars duo carrying weak roster.

Two stars, a perennial All-D guy, deep bench... The more I think about it the more it sounds like a stronger (relative to era) 2021 Suns.

Yeah, I think that's fair evaluation. I don't view Suns as some kind of amazing finals opponents but they were certainly solid and Blazers deserves the same treatment.

It's one thing to say that Jordan never faced superteams like 2014 Spurs or 2017 Warriors, but this is too much. Jordan opponents are not weak on average, they are what you should expect to see in the finals.

[HeartBreakKid]

The description of the 2022+21 Celtics and Suns sound like the Blazers.

And Terry Porter would be the 2nd best player on every team Heej mentioned and he'd probably be the best player on the Suns. I don't think Jayson Tatum (last year) is clearly all that much better than Terry Porter either.

Terry Porter is the most underrated player of all time considering he's not from an "obscure" era and still overlooked like he's Kenny Smith or something.

Guy really said he'd "barely" take the 2018 Cavs over the Blazers. Come on man...the Cavs were so bad they nearly got routed by a insanely green Celtics team that didn't even have their two star players.

[Heej]

Do they have a better rotation? Portland wasn't known for being a two-stars team, it was a very deep and talented roster with excellent bench. I'd say these two are on similar level.

Deep and talented is dragging it. Their main playmakers underperformed, and the rest of their team was glorified defensive hustle players lmao.

2021 Suns - 2 All Stars, deep roster, nuff said. Actually was a fairly dominant team then choked.

Again, this description suits 1992 Blazers perfectly as well. Yeah except for the fact that Chris Paul was twice as good as Terry Porter and didn't just completely disappear and become a non-factor like Porter did during the Bulls series

No KD, injured Klay - it's closer to 1991 Lakers than 1992 Blazers to me.

Wow. Aren't you even a little bit embarrassed at how disingenuous you're being with that statement? Klay literally hurt himself in the 3rd quarter of Game 6. He was ballin fine the rest of the Finals, and in fact was playing so good in that Game 6 people thought Curry was going to get the FMVP snatched from him. Don't try and compare these two to the choke show that Drexler and Porter put on lmao.

2018 Cavs are horrible outside of James. It would be the weakest MJ opponent except for injured Lakers.

Horrible enough to sweep the best team in their conference in the second round and win multiple crucial road games lmao. LeBron would be the best opponent MJ ever faced, and unless you're transposing him punching a whiteboard to a hypothetical 1992 matchup with either team, he's not significantly underperforming in the Finals like the Drexler did.

You also forgot about 2020 Heat of course, which is one of the weakest finalists in the last 40 years.

Took out the MVP did they not? Bam and Jimmy both had good years too. Definitely forgot because I was naming the remaining 2010s teams but sure, I'd put the Blazers around here. Jimmy Butler also did the exact opposite of Drexler and went supernova in the Finals putting on his best MJ impersonation, so there's that. Doubt the Blazers even beat this version of the Heat, especially given that Spoelstra would be one of the best coaches Adelman or Jackson would've ever had to go up against.

2015 Cavs with no Kyrie and Love? Seriously?
2014 Heat that collapsed in the finals due to injuries and age?

You are not objective here...

I'm not gonna lie, it did slip my mind how bad that Heat team was in the Finals. But they also ran into a buzzsaw Spurs team playing the most dominant offensive team basketball we'd ever witnessed until arguably the Warriors. That Cavs team in the Finals without Love and Kyrie is a bit underrated for now their identity shifted into a monstrous defensive team. Enough to flummox a dominant 67 win warrior squad. Given how the Blazers shrank to the occasion vs the Bulls, that's not the cakewalk you think it is.

This team was way better than that. They had Kersey, Williams, Robinson and Ainge who were all legit impact players.

Aka glorified defensive hustle players

I'd take them over 2014 Heat, 2015 injured Cavs, 2018 Cavs, 2019 injured Warriors and 2020 Heat. 2012 Thunder, 2021 Suns and 2022 Celtics are on similar level. 2011 Heat, 2013 Spurs, 2016 Warriors, 2017 Cavs are likely better. That makes them in 5-7 range, which is average.

Only teams I'd entertain taking them over are maybe 2014 Heat, 2015, 2018 Cavs. Maybe equal to 2020 Heat but realistically they get beat too with Butler going super Saiyan. And they're not doing a damn thing with LeBron on either of those Cavs team. He's babying their whole squad lmao, Jerome Kersey would do ok on him but he was no Iguodala or Kawhi although he was a really good defender for his era but any of those versions of Lebron is matching most of what a choking Drexler and Porter produced combined when accounting for both sides of the floor and his all around game.lmao. Puts them in the 8-12 range. Weak.

[Jaivl]

Your typical defensive hustle players, 2-4 years removed from 21 ppg and all-star / 19 ppg / league-leading in 3 pointers, all-star seasons.

[ImissJordan]

Too many prisoners of the moment (which is typical).

Today’s generation *really* needs to believe they are seeing the greatest player ever for some reason but it simply isn’t true - of course, it doesn’t help that the player they’re arguing for in question is openly campaigning for this “title” (who even does that?)

Greatest *talent* ever perhaps, but even that is arguable.

Just enjoy what you’re seeing. These kinds of threads are embarrassing and revealing, both.

[ImissJordan]

Your typical defensive hustle players, 2-4 years removed from 21 ppg and all-star / 19 ppg / league-leading in 3 pointers, all-star seasons.

It’s better not getting into this kind of argument with children who don’t know any better.

[LukaTheGOAT]

Lol @ "2 All Stars, 2 All Stars, 2 All Stars" versus "one man band" cause peak Terry Porter happened to have his only non-all star pick between 1991 and 1993. Way to show your knowledge of the Blazers begins and ends with the Shrug Game.

Not to mention that he fails to mention that Blazers was full of good players at that time. It wasn't just a two stars duo carrying weak roster.

There is a good argument at his peak, he was a better player in the PS than the RS.

Terry Porter in the playoffs from 1990-92 (Inflation Adjusted per 75):

•) 20.0 points
•) 3.4 rebounds
•) 6.9 assists (2.4 tov)
•) 1.2 steals
•) +9.7 opp. adjusted rTS%
•) 41.4 3P% (3.9 3PAs)

Also you don't want to over-index on matched, but he performed REALLY well against John Stockton, one of the premier PGs of his era.

Probably more of an all-nba level guy than he an actual fringe all-star.

[70sFan]

Do they have a better rotation? Portland wasn't known for being a two-stars team, it was a very deep and talented roster with excellent bench. I'd say these two are on similar level.

Deep and talented is dragging it. Their main playmakers underperformed, and the rest of their team was glorified defensive hustle players lmao.

2021 Suns - 2 All Stars, deep roster, nuff said. Actually was a fairly dominant team then choked.

Again, this description suits 1992 Blazers perfectly as well. Yeah except for the fact that Chris Paul was twice as good as Terry Porter and didn't just completely disappear and become a non-factor like Porter did during the Bulls series

No KD, injured Klay - it's closer to 1991 Lakers than 1992 Blazers to me.

Wow. Aren't you even a little bit embarrassed at how disingenuous you're being with that statement? Klay literally hurt himself in the 3rd quarter of Game 6. He was ballin fine the rest of the Finals, and in fact was playing so good in that Game 6 people thought Curry was going to get the FMVP snatched from him. Don't try and compare these two to the choke show that Drexler and Porter put on lmao.

2018 Cavs are horrible outside of James. It would be the weakest MJ opponent except for injured Lakers.

Horrible enough to sweep the best team in their conference in the second round and win multiple crucial road games lmao. LeBron would be the best opponent MJ ever faced, and unless you're transposing him punching a whiteboard to a hypothetical 1992 matchup with either team, he's not significantly underperforming in the Finals like the Drexler did.

You also forgot about 2020 Heat of course, which is one of the weakest finalists in the last 40 years.

Took out the MVP did they not? Bam and Jimmy both had good years too. Definitely forgot because I was naming the remaining 2010s teams but sure, I'd put the Blazers around here. Jimmy Butler also did the exact opposite of Drexler and went supernova in the Finals putting on his best MJ impersonation, so there's that. Doubt the Blazers even beat this version of the Heat, especially given that Spoelstra would be one of the best coaches Adelman or Jackson would've ever had to go up against.

2015 Cavs with no Kyrie and Love? Seriously?
2014 Heat that collapsed in the finals due to injuries and age?

You are not objective here...

I'm not gonna lie, it did slip my mind how bad that Heat team was in the Finals. But they also ran into a buzzsaw Spurs team playing the most dominant offensive team basketball we'd ever witnessed until arguably the Warriors. That Cavs team in the Finals without Love and Kyrie is a bit underrated for now their identity shifted into a monstrous defensive team. Enough to flummox a dominant 67 win warrior squad. Given how the Blazers shrank to the occasion vs the Bulls, that's not the cakewalk you think it is.

This team was way better than that. They had Kersey, Williams, Robinson and Ainge who were all legit impact players.

Aka glorified defensive hustle players

I'd take them over 2014 Heat, 2015 injured Cavs, 2018 Cavs, 2019 injured Warriors and 2020 Heat. 2012 Thunder, 2021 Suns and 2022 Celtics are on similar level. 2011 Heat, 2013 Spurs, 2016 Warriors, 2017 Cavs are likely better. That makes them in 5-7 range, which is average.

Only teams I'd entertain taking them over are maybe 2014 Heat, 2015, 2018 Cavs. Maybe equal to 2020 Heat but realistically they get beat too with Butler going super Saiyan. And they're not doing a damn thing with LeBron on either of those Cavs team. He's babying their whole squad lmao, Jerome Kersey would do ok on him but he was no Iguodala or Kawhi although he was a really good defender for his era but any of those versions of Lebron is matching most of what a choking Drexler and Porter produced combined when accounting for both sides of the floor and his all around game.lmao. Puts them in the 8-12 range. Weak.

I mean, you can believe whatever you want, but when so many people (most of which are not even 1990s fans) says you that you might not have the point here, I think it's reasonable to reconsider your statement.

[Heej]

Do they have a better rotation? Portland wasn't known for being a two-stars team, it was a very deep and talented roster with excellent bench. I'd say these two are on similar level.

Deep and talented is dragging it. Their main playmakers underperformed, and the rest of their team was glorified defensive hustle players lmao.

2021 Suns - 2 All Stars, deep roster, nuff said. Actually was a fairly dominant team then choked.

Again, this description suits 1992 Blazers perfectly as well. Yeah except for the fact that Chris Paul was twice as good as Terry Porter and didn't just completely disappear and become a non-factor like Porter did during the Bulls series

No KD, injured Klay - it's closer to 1991 Lakers than 1992 Blazers to me.

Wow. Aren't you even a little bit embarrassed at how disingenuous you're being with that statement? Klay literally hurt himself in the 3rd quarter of Game 6. He was ballin fine the rest of the Finals, and in fact was playing so good in that Game 6 people thought Curry was going to get the FMVP snatched from him. Don't try and compare these two to the choke show that Drexler and Porter put on lmao.

2018 Cavs are horrible outside of James. It would be the weakest MJ opponent except for injured Lakers.

Horrible enough to sweep the best team in their conference in the second round and win multiple crucial road games lmao. LeBron would be the best opponent MJ ever faced, and unless you're transposing him punching a whiteboard to a hypothetical 1992 matchup with either team, he's not significantly underperforming in the Finals like the Drexler did.

You also forgot about 2020 Heat of course, which is one of the weakest finalists in the last 40 years.

Took out the MVP did they not? Bam and Jimmy both had good years too. Definitely forgot because I was naming the remaining 2010s teams but sure, I'd put the Blazers around here. Jimmy Butler also did the exact opposite of Drexler and went supernova in the Finals putting on his best MJ impersonation, so there's that. Doubt the Blazers even beat this version of the Heat, especially given that Spoelstra would be one of the best coaches Adelman or Jackson would've ever had to go up against.

2015 Cavs with no Kyrie and Love? Seriously?
2014 Heat that collapsed in the finals due to injuries and age?

You are not objective here...

I'm not gonna lie, it did slip my mind how bad that Heat team was in the Finals. But they also ran into a buzzsaw Spurs team playing the most dominant offensive team basketball we'd ever witnessed until arguably the Warriors. That Cavs team in the Finals without Love and Kyrie is a bit underrated for now their identity shifted into a monstrous defensive team. Enough to flummox a dominant 67 win warrior squad. Given how the Blazers shrank to the occasion vs the Bulls, that's not the cakewalk you think it is.

This team was way better than that. They had Kersey, Williams, Robinson and Ainge who were all legit impact players.

Aka glorified defensive hustle players

I'd take them over 2014 Heat, 2015 injured Cavs, 2018 Cavs, 2019 injured Warriors and 2020 Heat. 2012 Thunder, 2021 Suns and 2022 Celtics are on similar level. 2011 Heat, 2013 Spurs, 2016 Warriors, 2017 Cavs are likely better. That makes them in 5-7 range, which is average.

Only teams I'd entertain taking them over are maybe 2014 Heat, 2015, 2018 Cavs. Maybe equal to 2020 Heat but realistically they get beat too with Butler going super Saiyan. And they're not doing a damn thing with LeBron on either of those Cavs team. He's babying their whole squad lmao, Jerome Kersey would do ok on him but he was no Iguodala or Kawhi although he was a really good defender for his era but any of those versions of Lebron is matching most of what a choking Drexler and Porter produced combined when accounting for both sides of the floor and his all around game.lmao. Puts them in the 8-12 range. Weak.

I mean, you can believe whatever you want, but when so many people (most of which are not even 1990s fans) says you that you might not have the point here, I think it's reasonable to reconsider your statement.

That's fair. But the majority is often wrong about a lot of things and you know this lol seeing the biases against players from your favorite eras. I genuinely just think the 90s were a nadir in talent alongside the 70s and 50s

[70sFan]

Deep and talented is dragging it. Their main playmakers underperformed, and the rest of their team was glorified defensive hustle players lmao.


Again, this description suits 1992 Blazers perfectly as well. Yeah except for the fact that Chris Paul was twice as good as Terry Porter and didn't just completely disappear and become a non-factor like Porter did during the Bulls series


Wow. Aren't you even a little bit embarrassed at how disingenuous you're being with that statement? Klay literally hurt himself in the 3rd quarter of Game 6. He was ballin fine the rest of the Finals, and in fact was playing so good in that Game 6 people thought Curry was going to get the FMVP snatched from him. Don't try and compare these two to the choke show that Drexler and Porter put on lmao.


Horrible enough to sweep the best team in their conference in the second round and win multiple crucial road games lmao. LeBron would be the best opponent MJ ever faced, and unless you're transposing him punching a whiteboard to a hypothetical 1992 matchup with either team, he's not significantly underperforming in the Finals like the Drexler did.


Took out the MVP did they not? Bam and Jimmy both had good years too. Definitely forgot because I was naming the remaining 2010s teams but sure, I'd put the Blazers around here. Jimmy Butler also did the exact opposite of Drexler and went supernova in the Finals putting on his best MJ impersonation, so there's that. Doubt the Blazers even beat this version of the Heat, especially given that Spoelstra would be one of the best coaches Adelman or Jackson would've ever had to go up against.


I'm not gonna lie, it did slip my mind how bad that Heat team was in the Finals. But they also ran into a buzzsaw Spurs team playing the most dominant offensive team basketball we'd ever witnessed until arguably the Warriors. That Cavs team in the Finals without Love and Kyrie is a bit underrated for now their identity shifted into a monstrous defensive team. Enough to flummox a dominant 67 win warrior squad. Given how the Blazers shrank to the occasion vs the Bulls, that's not the cakewalk you think it is.



Aka glorified defensive hustle players



Only teams I'd entertain taking them over are maybe 2014 Heat, 2015, 2018 Cavs. Maybe equal to 2020 Heat but realistically they get beat too with Butler going super Saiyan. And they're not doing a damn thing with LeBron on either of those Cavs team. He's babying their whole squad lmao, Jerome Kersey would do ok on him but he was no Iguodala or Kawhi although he was a really good defender for his era but any of those versions of Lebron is matching most of what a choking Drexler and Porter produced combined when accounting for both sides of the floor and his all around game.lmao. Puts them in the 8-12 range. Weak.

I mean, you can believe whatever you want, but when so many people (most of which are not even 1990s fans) says you that you might not have the point here, I think it's reasonable to reconsider your statement.

That's fair. But the majority is often wrong about a lot of things and you know this lol seeing the biases against players from your favorite eras. I genuinely just think the 90s were a nadir in talent alongside the 70s and 50s

It's not about the majority of basketball fans, but people here, most of which have no pro 1990s agenda.

When you call Buck Williams and Cliff Robinson random "defensive roleplayers" then you are wrong. When you don't consider Danny Ainge an elite bench guard then you are wrong. When you don't consider Porter a strong all-star guard, then you are wrong.

[Heej]

I mean, you can believe whatever you want, but when so many people (most of which are not even 1990s fans) says you that you might not have the point here, I think it's reasonable to reconsider your statement.

That's fair. But the majority is often wrong about a lot of things and you know this lol seeing the biases against players from your favorite eras. I genuinely just think the 90s were a nadir in talent alongside the 70s and 50s

It's not about the majority of basketball fans, but people here, most of which have no pro 1990s agenda.

When you call Buck Williams and Cliff Robinson random "defensive roleplayers" then you are wrong. When you don't consider Danny Ainge an elite bench guard then you are wrong. When you don't consider Porter a strong all-star guard, then you are wrong.

I'm not sure how else you'd describe two guys that averaged 7 and 10 FGA per game respectively as much more than defensive roleplayers . Danny Ainge averaged just under 10ppg on the year LMFAO, that is not an elite bench guard that is a defensive role player. Terry Porter made 2 all star teams and didn't even make it in 92, that is not a strong all-star guard lmao that is literally a weak all-star. What kinda delusional prop up job are you attempting to carry out here. It's ok to admit that MJ's competition wasn't that impressive, I promise. Either that or we are seeing some nostalgia glass direly in need of cleaning.

[70sFan]

That's fair. But the majority is often wrong about a lot of things and you know this lol seeing the biases against players from your favorite eras. I genuinely just think the 90s were a nadir in talent alongside the 70s and 50s

It's not about the majority of basketball fans, but people here, most of which have no pro 1990s agenda.

When you call Buck Williams and Cliff Robinson random "defensive roleplayers" then you are wrong. When you don't consider Danny Ainge an elite bench guard then you are wrong. When you don't consider Porter a strong all-star guard, then you are wrong.

I'm not sure how else you'd describe two guys that averaged 7 and 10 FGA per game respectively as much more than defensive roleplayers . Danny Ainge averaged just under 10ppg on the year LMFAO, that is not an elite bench guard that is a defensive role player. Terry Porter made 2 all star teams and didn't even make it in 92, that is not a strong all-star guard lmao that is literally a weak all-star. What kinda delusional prop up job are you attempting to carry out here. It's ok to admit that MJ's competition wasn't that impressive, I promise. Either that or we are seeing some nostalgia glass direly in need of cleaning.

So we come back to evaluating players via ppg now? If so, I shouldn't bother.

[Heej]

It's not about the majority of basketball fans, but people here, most of which have no pro 1990s agenda.

When you call Buck Williams and Cliff Robinson random "defensive roleplayers" then you are wrong. When you don't consider Danny Ainge an elite bench guard then you are wrong. When you don't consider Porter a strong all-star guard, then you are wrong.

I'm not sure how else you'd describe two guys that averaged 7 and 10 FGA per game respectively as much more than defensive roleplayers . Danny Ainge averaged just under 10ppg on the year LMFAO, that is not an elite bench guard that is a defensive role player. Terry Porter made 2 all star teams and didn't even make it in 92, that is not a strong all-star guard lmao that is literally a weak all-star. What kinda delusional prop up job are you attempting to carry out here. It's ok to admit that MJ's competition wasn't that impressive, I promise. Either that or we are seeing some nostalgia glass direly in need of cleaning.

So we come back to evaluating players via ppg now? If so, I shouldn't bother.

Cope. It's an easy way to determine how much offensive primacy a player has. Their advanced stats aren't impressive either lol, and those are mostly offense based. Further supports my claims of them being defensive role players and hustle guys. Calling someone an "elite" role player isn't a phrase that should just be bandied about willy nilly. There's probably like 20 something *elite* role players in the league in any given year imo.

I'm sure they were good role players tho, but good role players, a weak MVP, and a weak all star is what gets you a weak championship contending team imo.

[Djoker]

As DraymondGold dug out, Jordan is either #1 or close to it in just about every impact metric. Of course we don't have them for the likes of Wilt, Russell, Kareem etc. but at least in the 3pt era. And of course Jordan's box score metrics both basic and advanced are just ludicrous. He's #1 in just about all of them. That's why he's the most popular choice for best peak in NBA history after all.

[70sFan]

I'm not sure how else you'd describe two guys that averaged 7 and 10 FGA per game respectively as much more than defensive roleplayers . Danny Ainge averaged just under 10ppg on the year LMFAO, that is not an elite bench guard that is a defensive role player. Terry Porter made 2 all star teams and didn't even make it in 92, that is not a strong all-star guard lmao that is literally a weak all-star. What kinda delusional prop up job are you attempting to carry out here. It's ok to admit that MJ's competition wasn't that impressive, I promise. Either that or we are seeing some nostalgia glass direly in need of cleaning.

So we come back to evaluating players via ppg now? If so, I shouldn't bother.

Cope. It's an easy way to determine how much offensive primacy a player has. Their advanced stats aren't impressive either lol, and those are mostly offense based. Further supports my claims of them being defensive role players and hustle guys. Calling someone an "elite" role player isn't a phrase that should just be bandied about willy nilly. There's probably like 20 something *elite* role players in the league in any given year imo.

I'm sure they were good role players tho, but good role players, a weak MVP, and a weak all star is what gets you a weak championship contending team imo.

What you described in your last paragraph is better than 2021 Suns or 2022 Celtics and definitely better than 2020 Heat, yet you don't have any problems with it.

You can say that not all Jordan opponents are horrible, I promise.

[HeartBreakKid]

Porter put up 20/7 on +60 TS% for 3 post seasons in a row, all deep runs.

I think the idea that a "weak" all star can do that is pretty funny. Even mid tier all-stars can't be that consistent. I don't think you realize how insanely good you have to be to do that - even today usually only MVP typer of players are cracking that and it's easier to shoot 60 TS now then in Porter's day.




Manu Ginobili? Pffft he only made two all star teams. Clearly he wasn't that good of a teammate so why did James get **** on by the Spurs?