RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #13 (Kobe Bryant)

[therealbig3]

Some really revisionist history regarding Kobe here...yes, he clashed with teammates...or more accurately, one teammate in particular...Shaq. Is Shaq some model teammate/franchise piece now? Or are we going to pretend he didn't cause significant locker room issues and wore out his welcome very quickly on pretty much every team he was on? Or that he was someone that recovered on "company time", refused to play defense unless he was force-fed the ball, didn't practice or keep himself in shape nearly to the degree that he should have, and that he dumped the majority of the responsibility of regular season success on Kobe because he was too unmotivated? Or that even in the playoffs when he was giving it his all, Kobe was still the best #2 option in the league and was actually even the better player in certain matchups more often than people want to admit?

Kobe was much like Jordan in terms of how he dealt with teammates (he was a jerk, let's be real), but that's because he was a perfectionist who demanded the same from everyone else...he didn't have any significant issues other than with Shaq to my knowledge (which still resulted in 3 straight titles and 4 Finals, of which he played a significant role, way bigger role than Durant did for GS for example). Gasol and MWP and Odom loved the guy.

This whole narrative of Kobe being a bad teammate or uber selfish or a chucker is just a really bad take, because they can all be dubunked pretty quickly, or you have to be consistent and apply the exact same criticism to someone like Jordan, because they were wired the exact same way. Except, I'd say that Kobe seems more liked by his teammates than Jordan was. None of his former teammates (including Shaq) talk **** about him the way Jordan's teammates do now, even when Kobe was alive and would have been an easy thing to do.

Also, pretty sure impact data would have Kobe and Dirk pretty similarly ranked during their primes, with an edge to Dirk later on in his prime (2011 mainly). Kobe has a strong argument here, and his playoff resiliency was just better than Dirk's up through 07 or so, and then simply put, was just much more impressive especially in the playoffs than Dirk from 08-10. A lot of that is just opportunity, as he got to play for a title contender and Dirk didn't, but them's the breaks sometimes. Kobe came through in a monster way with the opportunity he got. But sure, let's ignore all of this and point to ONE series in 2011 in which Dirk had the superior team, Kobe had a clear dropoff from his previous seasons, and Dirk got the better of him. Makes sense.

EDIT: There's also no shame in being outplayed by Dirk at the top of his game, since Dirk was an exceptional player, and I personally have him pretty solidly in my top 15 all time. Players at this level can all get the better of each other and it doesn't really prove anything.

[penbeast0]

I actually ding Jordan for being a major league jerk far more than I do Kobe.

[therealbig3]

Furthermore, in terms of team offenses, particularly in the playoffs, with a little bit extra context, I did put together a spreadsheet of the best playoff offenses with a team's best offensive player on the court, so that they aren't punished when comparing relative offenses to each other based on when they were on the bench. I looked at teams that made at least the conference finals since 2001 (since we have on/off data in the playoffs since then on basketball reference), so we have teams that are typically contenders and went deep in the playoffs and played a variety of teams. I used the average regular season Drating of their opponent's teams and weighed them by games played to come up with the average Drating the team faced in the playoffs, and compared that to the on-court ORating for the team with the best player on the court, to come up with the relative Orating. I've posted this before, and Kobe looks really good relative to his contemporaries and more modern competition in terms of being able to anchor a strong postseason offense.

The average relative Orating for all conference finalists and beyond from 01-20 (that's when I stopped checking honestly, will update in the near future) was +6.0.

Here's how Curry, Durant, Kobe, LeBron, Nash, Shaq, and Dirk look for reference:

15 Curry: +3.3
16 Curry: +5.7
17 Curry: +18.4
18 Curry: +8.0
19 Curry: +7.6

11 Durant: +2.7
14 Durant: +4.8
12 Durant: +8.5
16 Durant: +9.9

08 Kobe: +8.1
09 Kobe: +8.4
10 Kobe: +8.4

07 LeBron: -1.5
09 LeBron: +9.8
11 LeBron: +4.7
12 LeBron: +10.7
13 LeBron: +9.9
14 LeBron: +9.6
15 LeBron: +4.1
16 LeBron: +14.1
17 LeBron: +16.9
18 LeBron: +5.6
20 LeBron: +6.8

05 Nash: +16.7
06 Nash: +11.7
10 Nash: +15.4

01 Shaq: +11.4
02 Shaq: +9.0
04 Shaq: +7.0

03 Dirk: +11.0
06 Dirk: +7.8
11 Dirk: +9.4


Keep in mind that 03 Dirk's playoff run got cut short vs the Spurs, the best defensive team in the league. And if I use Kobe as the best player for the 01 run, the relative Orating is actually BETTER than Shaq's. And in fact, the on/off for Shaq on offense in the 01 playoffs is a negative (they played better offense with Shaq off the court in the playoffs...I wonder how they were able to accomplish that?)

As an offensive anchor, he actually stacks up just fine to the other best offensive anchors we've seen in the last 20 years. The only ones clearly outperforming him in terms of anchoring a playoff offense are LeBron and Nash...aka two guys in the running for GOAT offensive players. Keep in mind with the amount of variance going on with these numbers, a less than 2 point difference in terms of relative Orating doesn't mean much, I would place them on the same tier. Other than 17 (which we all know had very special circumstances), Curry-led offense up through 2020 didn't outperform Kobe's, and in fact clearly underperformed them (the 15 and 16 Warriors can be called below average playoff offenses, since the average for everyone was +6.0). Dirk led two offenses in the same range as Kobe's 08-10 run, and one in 03 that I mentioned was cut short before he played against the best defensive team in the league. Shaq's offenses always had Kobe, and Kobe was leading a better offense in 01 than Shaq was actually. In 02 and 04, they're in the same range as Kobe-led offenses. Durant in 12 and 16 also at a similar level, with Westbrook deserving a lot of credit for co-leading as well.

And I've already explained that I think Kobe's teams were held back intentionally by coaching offensively more than these other guys. Lots of traditional lineups, an old offensive system that was honestly pretty obsolete, a lack of perimeter shooters...Kobe offensively could have been optimized much, much more imo.

[Owly]

Some really revisionist history regarding Kobe here...yes, he clashed with teammates...or more accurately, one teammate in particular...Shaq. Is Shaq some model teammate/franchise piece now? Or are we going to pretend he didn't cause significant locker room issues and wore out his welcome very quickly on pretty much every team he was on? Or that he was someone that recovered on "company time", refused to play defense unless he was force-fed the ball, didn't practice or keep himself in shape nearly to the degree that he should have, and that he dumped the majority of the responsibility of regular season success on Kobe because he was too unmotivated? Or that even in the playoffs when he was giving it his all, Kobe was still the best #2 option in the league and was actually even the better player in certain matchups more often than people want to admit?

Kobe was much like Jordan in terms of how he dealt with teammates (he was a jerk, let's be real), but that's because he was a perfectionist who demanded the same from everyone else...he didn't have any significant issues other than with Shaq to my knowledge (which still resulted in 3 straight titles and 4 Finals, of which he played a significant role, way bigger role than Durant did for GS for example). Gasol and MWP and Odom loved the guy.

This whole narrative of Kobe being a bad teammate or uber selfish or a chucker is just a really bad take, because they can all be dubunked pretty quickly, or you have to be consistent and apply the exact same criticism to someone like Jordan, because they were wired the exact same way. Except, I'd say that Kobe seems more liked by his teammates than Jordan was. None of his former teammates (including Shaq) talk **** about him the way Jordan's teammates do now, even when Kobe was alive and would have been an easy thing to do.

Also, pretty sure impact data would have Kobe and Dirk pretty similarly ranked during their primes, with an edge to Dirk later on in his prime (2011 mainly). Kobe has a strong argument here, and his playoff resiliency was just better than Dirk's up through 07 or so, and then simply put, was just much more impressive especially in the playoffs than Dirk from 08-10. A lot of that is just opportunity, as he got to play for a title contender and Dirk didn't, but them's the breaks sometimes. Kobe came through in a monster way with the opportunity he got. But sure, let's ignore all of this and point to ONE series in 2011 in which Dirk had the superior team, Kobe had a clear dropoff from his previous seasons, and Dirk got the better of him. Makes sense.

Sooooo...
- "chucker" would be outright wrong (apart from in those final years). Nobody that good is a chucker. He might not be as efficient as those he's often compared to but that's only one aspect of the game, shots are taken within a specific context etc. I think some have questioned his shot selection but that term just doesn't fit.
- Shaq ... and ... "one teammate in particular" ... one teammate more than any other, perhaps. But look say at Lazenby's book it talks how Del Harris and then Rambis asked him to defer to Shaq ... "West, too, had worked hard on the chemistry but would later remark that Bryant refused to defer to O'Neal in any way." He's ignoring coaching and management requests and Vaccarro says "He wouldn't defer to God Almighty". A page later '"Shaq really wanted to have this great relationsip with the kid and [have] the two of them lead this team to a championship," offered one veteran Lakers employee. "He wasn't jealous of Kobe or anything like that. He still isn't Shaq has tried to get him under control. The kid has this attitude, 'You may be Shaquille O'Neal but I'm Kobe Bryant. I'm Every bit the player you are, plus some'"' ... he thinks he's better ... this is circa 98 to 99. It mentions Reuben Patterson (2). It's clear Patterson isn't blameless but again there's a Laker staffer implying a double standard [Lazenby's words] and that "Kobe was untouchable. Kobe could do what he wanted" (all p314-316).
Back a few pages Derek Fisher "Nobody ever really came out and said that they felt Kobe's selfishness was our problem. But that's what everybody felt." p312
p303 talks about Kobe's isolation (not basketball, but within the team) and how Fisher sought to initiate a relationship (p303).
p429 "one anonymous teammate ... thought Bryant intentionally blew the game" (versus Sacramento, 2004) - at a glance it doesn't go into the 2006 Phoenix game
p479 "Jim Jackson observed that Bryant still remained basically aloof ...'He was always on the outside looking in'"
This is literally me just skimming through the book ... I think there were issues with Smush Parker (3) and an incident with Samaki Walker (4??). I haven't looked at Colorado coverage or pulling Shaq under the bush there. A public "trade player X" comment.

One doesn't have to think Shaq an angel, a "model teammate" or even really like him to see there were other clashes and enough that he's not a victim of circumstances. We're not on the inside, people can differ on different styles of leadership, being an introvert isn't necessarily bad (though I'd suggest problems were beyond the scope of mere introversion) ... I think "bad teammate" would be a very strong label to go to, not one I'd necessarily apply myself.

In terms of nobody talks bad ... as you allude to it's really hard now. I think Phil Jackson criticized him quite a lot whilst Kobe was alive though (I think there's criticism in 11 Rings, not just after the first run). I'd also suggest that once the mythology is locked in and you're a good guy and hero (and that makes money?) the official spin and the general direction of the weather is going to move in one direction (for instance that Bryant settled the civil case with money and in a statement at the dropping the criminal case acknowledged the other person felt they both "did not and does not" share his view it was consensual - i.e. she did not consent at the time i.e. ... - it's not as low key as the Bernard King stuff ... he was a smaller star, less established at the time in a less prominent status league; K. Malone issue wasn't big at the time maybe more now?? - I think there are worlds where Bryant is perceived more of a problematic figure than I think he is presently) and especially now it's easier to go with it.

So yeah you should call out Jordan for his stuff and yeah Shaq could be lazy. But I don't think there's a cabal of people who don't "want to admit" how good Bryant was. I wouldn't use the verbiage used. I do think there were problems with more than just Shaq.


Fwiw, on teammates against Jordan now ... I think Jordan got less savvy or cared less over time. Playing-era Jordan the persona was a diplomat and the mask rarely slipped and you were frozen out if you called him on it. I don't pay a great deal of attention but my sense is he's more self-aggrandizing now - where he mostly let the machine do it (at least in public) for him before. I could be wrong.

[therealbig3]

Some really revisionist history regarding Kobe here...yes, he clashed with teammates...or more accurately, one teammate in particular...Shaq. Is Shaq some model teammate/franchise piece now? Or are we going to pretend he didn't cause significant locker room issues and wore out his welcome very quickly on pretty much every team he was on? Or that he was someone that recovered on "company time", refused to play defense unless he was force-fed the ball, didn't practice or keep himself in shape nearly to the degree that he should have, and that he dumped the majority of the responsibility of regular season success on Kobe because he was too unmotivated? Or that even in the playoffs when he was giving it his all, Kobe was still the best #2 option in the league and was actually even the better player in certain matchups more often than people want to admit?

Kobe was much like Jordan in terms of how he dealt with teammates (he was a jerk, let's be real), but that's because he was a perfectionist who demanded the same from everyone else...he didn't have any significant issues other than with Shaq to my knowledge (which still resulted in 3 straight titles and 4 Finals, of which he played a significant role, way bigger role than Durant did for GS for example). Gasol and MWP and Odom loved the guy.

This whole narrative of Kobe being a bad teammate or uber selfish or a chucker is just a really bad take, because they can all be dubunked pretty quickly, or you have to be consistent and apply the exact same criticism to someone like Jordan, because they were wired the exact same way. Except, I'd say that Kobe seems more liked by his teammates than Jordan was. None of his former teammates (including Shaq) talk **** about him the way Jordan's teammates do now, even when Kobe was alive and would have been an easy thing to do.

Also, pretty sure impact data would have Kobe and Dirk pretty similarly ranked during their primes, with an edge to Dirk later on in his prime (2011 mainly). Kobe has a strong argument here, and his playoff resiliency was just better than Dirk's up through 07 or so, and then simply put, was just much more impressive especially in the playoffs than Dirk from 08-10. A lot of that is just opportunity, as he got to play for a title contender and Dirk didn't, but them's the breaks sometimes. Kobe came through in a monster way with the opportunity he got. But sure, let's ignore all of this and point to ONE series in 2011 in which Dirk had the superior team, Kobe had a clear dropoff from his previous seasons, and Dirk got the better of him. Makes sense.

Sooooo...
- "chucker" would be outright wrong (apart from in those final years). Nobody that good is a chucker. He might not be as efficient as those he's often compared to but that's only one aspect of the game, shots are taken within a specific context etc. I think some have questioned his shot selection but that term just doesn't fit.
- Shaq ... and ... "one teammate in particular" ... one teammate more than any other, perhaps. But look say at Lazenby's book it talks how Del Harris and then Rambis asked him to defer to Shaq ... "West, too, had worked hard on the chemistry but would later remark that Bryant refused to defer to O'Neal in any way." He's ignoring coaching and management requests and Vaccarro says "He wouldn't defer to God Almighty". A page later '"Shaq really wanted to have this great relationsip with the kid and [have] the two of them lead this team to a championship," offered one veteran Lakers employee. "He wasn't jealous of Kobe or anything like that. He still isn't Shaq has tried to get him under control. The kid has this attitude, 'You may be Shaquille O'Neal but I'm Kobe Bryant. I'm Every bit the player you are, plus some'"' ... he thinks he's better ... this is circa 98 to 99. It mentions Reuben Patterson (2). It's clear Patterson isn't blameless but again there's a Laker staffer implying a double standard [Lazenby's words] and that "Kobe was untouchable. Kobe could do what he wanted" (all p314-316).
Back a few pages Derek Fisher "Nobody ever really came out and said that they felt Kobe's selfishness was our problem. But that's what everybody felt." p312
p303 talks about Kobe's isolation (not basketball, but within the team) and how Fisher sought to initiate a relationship (p303).
p429 "one anonymous teammate ... thought Bryant intentionally blew the game" (versus Sacramento, 2004) - at a glance it doesn't go into the 2006 Phoenix game
p479 "Jim Jackson observed that Bryant still remained basically aloof ...'He was always on the outside looking in'"
This is literally me just skimming through the book ... I think there were issues with Smush Parker (3) and an incident with Samaki Walker (4??). I haven't looked at Colorado coverage or pulling Shaq under the bush there. A public "trade player X" comment.

One doesn't have to think Shaq an angel, a "model teammate" or even really like him to see there were other clashes and enough that he's not a victim of circumstances. We're not on the inside, people can differ on different styles of leadership, being an introvert isn't necessarily bad (though I'd suggest problems were beyond the scope of mere introversion) ... I think "bad teammate" would be a very strong label to go to, not one I'd necessarily apply myself.

In terms of nobody talks bad ... as you allude to it's really hard now. I think Phil Jackson criticized him quite a lot whilst Kobe was alive though (I think there's criticism in 11 Rings, not just after the first run). I'd also suggest that once the mythology is locked in and you're a good guy and hero (and that makes money?) the official spin and the general direction of the weather is going to move in one direction (for instance that Bryant settled the civil case with money and in a statement at the dropping the criminal case acknowledged the other person felt they both "did not and does not" share his view it was consensual - i.e. she did not consent at the time i.e. ... - it's not as low key as the Bernard King stuff ... he was a smaller star, less established at the time in a less prominent status league; K. Malone issue wasn't big at the time maybe more now?? - I think there are worlds where Bryant is perceived more of a problematic figure than I think he is presently) and especially now it's easier to go with it.

So yeah you should call out Jordan for his stuff and yeah Shaq could be lazy. But I don't think there's a cabal of people who don't "want to admit" how good Bryant was. I wouldn't use the verbiage used. I do think there were problems with more than just Shaq.


Fwiw, on teammates against Jordan now ... I think Jordan got less savvy or cared less over time. Playing-era Jordan the persona was a diplomat and the mask rarely slipped and you were frozen out if you called him on it. I don't pay a great deal of attention but my sense is he's more self-aggrandizing now - where he mostly let the machine do it (at least in public) for him before. I could be wrong.

Good post.

There's obviously also growth with Kobe as a leader...Jackson and Fisher for all their criticisms came back and rejoined the Lakers and helped them win again in the Kobe-led era.

I also think throughout multiple seasons with a personality like Kobe...there's going to be strife and no shortage of conflicts arising between teammates. How much of this is normal stuff that happens in any locker room? And for sure, I don't think Kobe is blameless...I think from everything we've seen and know of him, he can be a tough guy to play with sometimes. Doesn't make him a bad teammate or even leader, but his leadership style isn't for everyone. I mean, you can find criticisms of LeBron's leadership style too, don't think there's a perfect teammate/leader unless you're Magic or Nash or something.

I do think there are some people that maybe subconsciously are following a narrative in their heads that Kobe wasn't a good teammate or was a huge ball hog to a degree way greater than other shoot first players or simply had pretty box score numbers that didn't translate as much to true impact, and they're docking him for that, even if they don't realize it. Because the +/- crowd has always been lower on Kobe than the general fans, which is totally fine...it's true, Kobe isn't as good in terms of objective data as the popular consensus is...but he's still really, really good and certainly one of the all time greats, and he compares just fine to the best players ever outside of the true GOAT/GOAT-ish candidates...nobody else is clearly superior to a player like Kobe from a career perspective. I think some people take it too far the other direction by docking him TOO much for not stacking up to LeBron or Duncan or Garnett or Shaq as far as peak impact, which isn't really a criticism to be honest.

Also, I'm not sure what it is, but it's not uncommon for people to really try to diminish what Kobe provided to the three-peat Lakers simply because he was the second option. Acting like it was all Shaq, and that Kobe's accomplishments and contributions during that time wasn't necessarily that impressive, which really doesn't make sense...they don't win without Kobe either. And if you parse through the numbers, there are series where Kobe outplayed Shaq in fact. And lineup numbers look better in the Kobe on/Shaq off minutes than vice versa (the 01 playoffs for example). This isn't really acknowledged though, and Kobe's presence is just hand-waved away and it's almost like these years don't count when comparing him to other elite players. Again, doesn't make much sense to me. Like I said, he was more valuable to the Lakers at that time than Durant was to the Warriors, and yet, it's again not uncommon to see Durant's role propped up more than Kobe's for whatever reason.

No I'm not saying everyone does this, most people are rational and are considering everything, but in this project alone, Kobe has been labeled as selfish and as a bad teammate and as someone that wouldn't work nearly as well in today's league since it's about ball movement and team play (implying that he wasn't good at that) by multiple posters. Who have also implied that he's just a supporting player, not a lead player like other guys, despite the 06-10 stretch directly disproving this, when he led bad supporting casts to the playoffs and good to great supporting casts to championships. It's unfounded and 100% selective narrative-driven.

[therealbig3]

Dirk isn't just a jumpshooting big though, he himself had a strong handles for a bigman and his scoring game was extremely versatile.

And all of that is more common now. There are several superstar bigs with stronger or comparable handles today. Bigs have seen a spike in scoring versatility.

Dirk's strengths are less of an outlier. So, even assuming talent plays no factor, Dirk either is scaling up his raw production/effeciency significantly or he's worse.

We have seen a spike in scoring versatility, but it's not like we see dozens of Dirk-esque scorers in the league right now. How many of them can be found - Jokic, Embiid and Towns? I wouldn't say Towns is really comparable and Embiid has clear postseason issues.

I don't support Dirk here, I think he belongs closer to the bottom of top 20, but I don't think that Dirk archetype is common now. Dirk isn't a stretch big, he's a 7 feet tall iso scorer with extremely resilient package, who also happened to be one of the best shooters ever.

Just curious, who do you rank above Dirk all time if you had to give a list? I have him top 15 I think, was just curious who you would have that I don't.

[iggymcfrack]

I find it pretty bizarre to hear that Dirk is 'less good in today's league' than Kobe, when in their most recent match up in 2011 Dirk cooked Kobe in a sweep. Kobe was either in his prime or close to in 2011, and Dirk looked like the better player.

It's Kobe whose play style doesn't work today. Even if we accepted the premise Dirk's style would be less valuable, and I don't, clearly that would be even moreso for Kobe.

Kobe would be better today only because now that people value impact, efficiency, and team ball over PPG, he wouldn't play such a selfish style. Now, when he tried to play for stats, the stats he played for would actually help the team win. He doesn't get a retroactive bonus for that though.

This is not a serious take...

Why not? Kobe’s Jordan worship was his Achilles heel. He thought he needed to take the last shot every close game which led to him having one of the worst clutch shooting percentages of any superstar. He thought he needed to score the most points every Finals which cost the Lakers the 2004 title. He tried so hard to carry the team’s scoring in between Shaq and Pau that he barely played defense at all.

If he’d grown up worshipping LeBron instead, he would have focused much more on passing and making the right basketball play. If he’d lived in this era where even casuals pay more attention to advanced stats than PPG, he would have been a much more efficient scorer. I think if he came into the league in 2017 instead of 1997, he would have played a much more well-rounded team game, and he would have ended up as a top 15 player, probably had a better career than any of these nominees except for Robinson.

[iggymcfrack]

Some really revisionist history regarding Kobe here...yes, he clashed with teammates...or more accurately, one teammate in particular...Shaq. Is Shaq some model teammate/franchise piece now? Or are we going to pretend he didn't cause significant locker room issues and wore out his welcome very quickly on pretty much every team he was on? Or that he was someone that recovered on "company time", refused to play defense unless he was force-fed the ball, didn't practice or keep himself in shape nearly to the degree that he should have, and that he dumped the majority of the responsibility of regular season success on Kobe because he was too unmotivated? Or that even in the playoffs when he was giving it his all, Kobe was still the best #2 option in the league and was actually even the better player in certain matchups more often than people want to admit?

Kobe was much like Jordan in terms of how he dealt with teammates (he was a jerk, let's be real), but that's because he was a perfectionist who demanded the same from everyone else...he didn't have any significant issues other than with Shaq to my knowledge (which still resulted in 3 straight titles and 4 Finals, of which he played a significant role, way bigger role than Durant did for GS for example). Gasol and MWP and Odom loved the guy.

This whole narrative of Kobe being a bad teammate or uber selfish or a chucker is just a really bad take, because they can all be dubunked pretty quickly, or you have to be consistent and apply the exact same criticism to someone like Jordan, because they were wired the exact same way. Except, I'd say that Kobe seems more liked by his teammates than Jordan was. None of his former teammates (including Shaq) talk **** about him the way Jordan's teammates do now, even when Kobe was alive and would have been an easy thing to do.

Also, pretty sure impact data would have Kobe and Dirk pretty similarly ranked during their primes, with an edge to Dirk later on in his prime (2011 mainly). Kobe has a strong argument here, and his playoff resiliency was just better than Dirk's up through 07 or so, and then simply put, was just much more impressive especially in the playoffs than Dirk from 08-10. A lot of that is just opportunity, as he got to play for a title contender and Dirk didn't, but them's the breaks sometimes. Kobe came through in a monster way with the opportunity he got. But sure, let's ignore all of this and point to ONE series in 2011 in which Dirk had the superior team, Kobe had a clear dropoff from his previous seasons, and Dirk got the better of him. Makes sense.

EDIT: There's also no shame in being outplayed by Dirk at the top of his game, since Dirk was an exceptional player, and I personally have him pretty solidly in my top 15 all time. Players at this level can all get the better of each other and it doesn't really prove anything.

It’s not just the clashing with Shaq and refusing to feed him in the Finals when Shaq was red hot and Kobe was ice cold. He was a dick to Kwame too when Kwame was playing pretty well and hurt his confidence. He abandoned his team at halftime of a Game 7 to make a point to the media. He went 3.5 years without playing defense when he didn’t have another superstar to play next to because he didn’t trust his teammates to make a shot. He was one of the worst teammates in the history of the NBA his first 11.5 seasons until Pau joined the team and Phil finally got it though his head he had to try to play team ball to get more rings.

[70sFan]

And all of that is more common now. There are several superstar bigs with stronger or comparable handles today. Bigs have seen a spike in scoring versatility.

Dirk's strengths are less of an outlier. So, even assuming talent plays no factor, Dirk either is scaling up his raw production/effeciency significantly or he's worse.

We have seen a spike in scoring versatility, but it's not like we see dozens of Dirk-esque scorers in the league right now. How many of them can be found - Jokic, Embiid and Towns? I wouldn't say Towns is really comparable and Embiid has clear postseason issues.

I don't support Dirk here, I think he belongs closer to the bottom of top 20, but I don't think that Dirk archetype is common now. Dirk isn't a stretch big, he's a 7 feet tall iso scorer with extremely resilient package, who also happened to be one of the best shooters ever.

Just curious, who do you rank above Dirk all time if you had to give a list? I have him top 15 I think, was just curious who you would have that I don't.

I think I'd have him 17th or 18th (him vs Julius). My 11-16:

11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Steph Curry
14. Karl Malone
15. Larry Bird
16. Jerry West

[HeartBreakKid]

My vote goes to Oscar Robertson

I believe given the nature of their positions you often want the absolute best offense you can usually get from a point guard. I am not sure if West and Oscar are THAT close in terms of offense. I believe playmaking and floor generalship is much more underlooked than shooting these days, and even defense.

Oscar was very close to West as a scorer based on what I've seen. They both have highly resilient games, can score large in mass, and can create their own shot. West does kill Oscar as an off ball player, but given their positions I think it's not much of a big deal (extra points for West due to positional versatility though).

We have data that suggest that the Royals were the best offense pretty much every year, even when they were butt. It didn't help that their margin for error was very small because they were in the tougher conference. 1964 could have been their year but peak Celtics said "uh uh".

I have been very impressed with what I have read and seen from Jerry West defensively. I have given West my vote and nominations over Oscar up until now. But I do think fundamentally I love the "idea" of West more than what he may have actually been. There just isn't enough evidence to properly rate how powerful his defensive impact is in a direct comparison with another player of his caliber. I fully buy him being a top 3 defensive PG, but again, given what we know about the nature of point guards I find myself wondering "isn't better to just get the premium on offense?".

I use this line of thinking to often put Bill Russell over defensive giants with better scoring like Robinson and Olajuwon. I think to myself, getting a 10/10 in defense over a 9/10 is worth it if you're a center, even if you're giving up volume scoring. That's because I believe outlier capabilities that try to "break" basketball are what makes superstars, superstars (see Steph Curry who was just voted in).

However, I will be conflicted later because I often go back and forth between Nash and Paul. Nash is the better offensive player, isn't that more valuable than a sizable gap in their defense given their positions?


Not really sure about that, but for now it's Robertson time!

Alternate Vote: Jerry West

I already mentioned in prior threads, but I feel that West is essentially a slightly better version than Bryant on offense, and much better on defense. Playoff resilience is well in West's favor too, which is a big reason why I am very high on him. (Bryant's isn't bad either, just not that special)

[f4p]

I would have Dirk well ahead. Moreover, if D.Rob or West get up this round I think you'd find support for Dirk over Kobe from the same voters backing West and D.Rob. Unlike Kobe, Dirk actually plays like a modern player.

i mean slow-footed big guys have tremendous issues on defense in the modern era. very athletic wings are the prototype defenders of today. i'm much more confident kobe adapts to modern offense than dirk suddenly gets a lot faster.

[OhayoKD]

I would have Dirk well ahead. Moreover, if D.Rob or West get up this round I think you'd find support for Dirk over Kobe from the same voters backing West and D.Rob. Unlike Kobe, Dirk actually plays like a modern player.

i mean slow-footed big guys have tremendous issues on defense in the modern era. very athletic wings are the prototype defenders of today. i'm much more confident kobe adapts to modern offense than dirk suddenly gets a lot faster.

Are we classifying AD, Draymond and Giannis as wings?

Because the Kawhi's and PG's and KD's are certainly nowhere near "prototype defenders" of today

[Colbinii]

I would have Dirk well ahead. Moreover, if D.Rob or West get up this round I think you'd find support for Dirk over Kobe from the same voters backing West and D.Rob. Unlike Kobe, Dirk actually plays like a modern player.

i mean slow-footed big guys have tremendous issues on defense in the modern era. very athletic wings are the prototype defenders of today. i'm much more confident kobe adapts to modern offense than dirk suddenly gets a lot faster.

Are they?

I feel the best defenders are the PF/C hybrid's who can switch and have elite mobility [Bam, Draymond, JJJ, Mobley, Claxton] or are a GOAT-level POA defender [Caruso, Smart].

[WintaSoldier1]

I would have Dirk well ahead. Moreover, if D.Rob or West get up this round I think you'd find support for Dirk over Kobe from the same voters backing West and D.Rob. Unlike Kobe, Dirk actually plays like a modern player.

i mean slow-footed big guys have tremendous issues on defense in the modern era. very athletic wings are the prototype defenders of today. i'm much more confident kobe adapts to modern offense than dirk suddenly gets a lot faster.

Are we classifying AD, Draymond and Giannis as wings?

Because the Kawhi's and PG's and KD's are certainly nowhere near "prototype defenders" of today

What does era portability have to do with relative era peak although?

Is having the ability to transverse from era to era as a player a part of the criteria?

[OhayoKD]

i mean slow-footed big guys have tremendous issues on defense in the modern era. very athletic wings are the prototype defenders of today. i'm much more confident kobe adapts to modern offense than dirk suddenly gets a lot faster.

Are we classifying AD, Draymond and Giannis as wings?

Because the Kawhi's and PG's and KD's are certainly nowhere near "prototype defenders" of today

What does era portability have to do with relative era peak although?

Is having the ability to transverse from era to era as a player a part of the criteria?

For some. This specific comversation started with someone preferring Kobe to Dirk based on modern translation

[OhayoKD]

I would have Dirk well ahead. Moreover, if D.Rob or West get up this round I think you'd find support for Dirk over Kobe from the same voters backing West and D.Rob. Unlike Kobe, Dirk actually plays like a modern player.

i mean slow-footed big guys have tremendous issues on defense in the modern era. very athletic wings are the prototype defenders of today. i'm much more confident kobe adapts to modern offense than dirk suddenly gets a lot faster.

Are they?

I feel the best defenders are the PF/C hybrid's who can switch and have elite mobility [Bam, Draymond, JJJ, Mobley, Claxton] or are a GOAT-level POA defender [Caruso, Smart].

Smart is not even the best defender on his own team

[iggymcfrack]

We have seen a spike in scoring versatility, but it's not like we see dozens of Dirk-esque scorers in the league right now. How many of them can be found - Jokic, Embiid and Towns? I wouldn't say Towns is really comparable and Embiid has clear postseason issues.

I don't support Dirk here, I think he belongs closer to the bottom of top 20, but I don't think that Dirk archetype is common now. Dirk isn't a stretch big, he's a 7 feet tall iso scorer with extremely resilient package, who also happened to be one of the best shooters ever.

Just curious, who do you rank above Dirk all time if you had to give a list? I have him top 15 I think, was just curious who you would have that I don't.

I think I'd have him 17th or 18th (him vs Julius). My 11-16:

11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Steph Curry
14. Karl Malone
15. Larry Bird
16. Jerry West

Why do you have Kobe over Dirk? Dirk has better box stats and significantly better impact stats. Is it just the rings? I feel like Dirk has 1.5 rings as the alpha (got screwed in 2006) and so does Kobe (kinda 1a/1b with Pau in 2010). I mean, I guess you could give Kobe 1b credit in 2001 and 2003 too, but also Dirk had one of the most impressive rings of all-time sweeping Kobe and Pau, dominating KD, Westbrook, and Harden, and then pulling a massive upset against the Bron/Wade/Bosh superteam. I definitely don’t see a meaningful edge for Kobe in team playoff performance. What’s the deciding favorite for you?

[70sFan]

Just curious, who do you rank above Dirk all time if you had to give a list? I have him top 15 I think, was just curious who you would have that I don't.

I think I'd have him 17th or 18th (him vs Julius). My 11-16:

11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Steph Curry
14. Karl Malone
15. Larry Bird
16. Jerry West

Why do you have Kobe over Dirk? Dirk has better box stats and significantly better impact stats. Is it just the rings? I feel like Dirk has 1.5 rings as the alpha (got screwed in 2006) and so does Kobe (kinda 1a/1b with Pau in 2010). I mean, I guess you could give Kobe 1b credit in 2001 and 2003 too, but also Dirk had one of the most impressive rings of all-time sweeping Kobe and Pau, dominating KD, Westbrook, and Harden, and then pulling a massive upset against the Bron/Wade/Bosh superteam. I definitely don’t see a meaningful edge for Kobe in team playoff performance. What’s the deciding favorite for you?

No, it's not rings. I think that Kobe provides you more value in postseason with his versatile offensive game (less efficient scorer, but much better playmaker) and I am more skeptical about Dirk's defense than some here.

I also disagree with a lot of things you said here. Dirk doesn't have better boxscore stats (they are basically identical in all boxscore composites, even though I find them useless), I don't view Gasol as 1b at all in 2010, I don't think Dirk "got screwed" win 2006 and the only thing I can agree is that Dirk looks better in RAPM studies, but it's mostly influenced by Shaq sample. If we look at how they fared in 2006-11 period, there is not a significant difference either way:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055547/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

2006: Dirk 5th, Kobe 6th
2007: Dirk 6th, Kobe 8th
2008: Dirk 7th, Kobe 6th
2009: Dirk 13th, Kobe 5th
2010: Dirk 18th, Kobe 4th
2011: Dirk 1st, Kobe 32nd

I think that Dirk has a better longevity overall and they are quite close all things concerned, but I am not as high on Dirk's peak as some people are here. Still, I see nothing wrong with choosing Dirk over Kobe. I actually like Dirk a lot more for what it's worth.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think I'd have him 17th or 18th (him vs Julius). My 11-16:

11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Steph Curry
14. Karl Malone
15. Larry Bird
16. Jerry West

Why do you have Kobe over Dirk? Dirk has better box stats and significantly better impact stats. Is it just the rings? I feel like Dirk has 1.5 rings as the alpha (got screwed in 2006) and so does Kobe (kinda 1a/1b with Pau in 2010). I mean, I guess you could give Kobe 1b credit in 2001 and 2003 too, but also Dirk had one of the most impressive rings of all-time sweeping Kobe and Pau, dominating KD, Westbrook, and Harden, and then pulling a massive upset against the Bron/Wade/Bosh superteam. I definitely don’t see a meaningful edge for Kobe in team playoff performance. What’s the deciding favorite for you?

No, it's not rings. I think that Kobe provides you more value in postseason with his versatile offensive game (less efficient scorer, but much better playmaker) and I am more skeptical about Dirk's defense than some here.

I also disagree with a lot of things you said here. Dirk doesn't have better boxscore stats (they are basically identical in all boxscore composites, even though I find them useless), I don't view Gasol as 1b at all in 2010, I don't think Dirk "got screwed" win 2006 and the only thing I can agree is that Dirk looks better in RAPM studies, but it's mostly influenced by Shaq sample. If we look at how they fared in 2006-11 period, there is not a significant difference either way:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055547/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

2006: Dirk 5th, Kobe 6th
2007: Dirk 6th, Kobe 8th
2008: Dirk 7th, Kobe 6th
2009: Dirk 13th, Kobe 5th
2010: Dirk 18th, Kobe 4th
2011: Dirk 1st, Kobe 32nd

I think that Dirk has a better longevity overall and they are quite close all things concerned, but I am not as high on Dirk's peak as some people are here. Still, I see nothing wrong with choosing Dirk over Kobe. I actually like Dirk a lot more for what it's worth.

Out of curiosity, why don't you vote? You still participate, give an opinion and clearly have rankings. It's not like you have to commit to anything.

Just seems like it's a waste not to if you have a ranking of the available players already. The list reflects the boards opinion and you're part of the board!

[Owly]

I think I'd have him 17th or 18th (him vs Julius). My 11-16:

11. Oscar Robertson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Steph Curry
14. Karl Malone
15. Larry Bird
16. Jerry West

Why do you have Kobe over Dirk? Dirk has better box stats and significantly better impact stats. Is it just the rings? I feel like Dirk has 1.5 rings as the alpha (got screwed in 2006) and so does Kobe (kinda 1a/1b with Pau in 2010). I mean, I guess you could give Kobe 1b credit in 2001 and 2003 too, but also Dirk had one of the most impressive rings of all-time sweeping Kobe and Pau, dominating KD, Westbrook, and Harden, and then pulling a massive upset against the Bron/Wade/Bosh superteam. I definitely don’t see a meaningful edge for Kobe in team playoff performance. What’s the deciding favorite for you?

No, it's not rings. I think that Kobe provides you more value in postseason with his versatile offensive game (less efficient scorer, but much better playmaker) and I am more skeptical about Dirk's defense than some here.

I also disagree with a lot of things you said here. Dirk doesn't have better boxscore stats (they are basically identical in all boxscore composites, even though I find them useless), I don't view Gasol as 1b at all in 2010, I don't think Dirk "got screwed" win 2006 and the only thing I can agree is that Dirk looks better in RAPM studies, but it's mostly influenced by Shaq sample. If we look at how they fared in 2006-11 period, there is not a significant difference either way:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201024055547/https://sites.google.com/site/rapmstats/97-14-rapm-2

2006: Dirk 5th, Kobe 6th
2007: Dirk 6th, Kobe 8th
2008: Dirk 7th, Kobe 6th
2009: Dirk 13th, Kobe 5th
2010: Dirk 18th, Kobe 4th
2011: Dirk 1st, Kobe 32nd

I think that Dirk has a better longevity overall and they are quite close all things concerned, but I am not as high on Dirk's peak as some people are here. Still, I see nothing wrong with choosing Dirk over Kobe. I actually like Dirk a lot more for what it's worth.

Regarding box-composites mileage will vary depending on the the interpretation (e.g. RS or playoffs or both; metrics of choice; peak/career average/some VORP-y CORP=y model possibly with an exponential curve for high end seasons)
Just for simplicity (and career average can be pretty flawed - in general punishes longevity for instance, though not a large gap here)
Reference RS career: Kobe razor thin edge in BPM 4.55 to 4.54 and a fairly narow one in PER 22.90 to 22.44, Nowitzki eyeballing has a larger one in WS/48 .1928 to .1705.
I think, otoh, that might narrowly favor Dirk but only narrowly. At a glance if one grants that RS minutes edge is not circumstantial in the way a playoff minutes edge is (i.e. teammate dependent) and doesn't want to disadvantage Dirk you probably could get to a Dirk win across the board though PER is difficult to tell (you have to get Nowitzki below [though I think nearest whole season version of career total minutes to] Bryant's minutes to get the PER lead (Dirk 2000-2017). Give Dirk '18 (and a slightly larger minutes gap than Kobe had) and PER falls below. In general accounting for the minutes advantage this probably does make it a clearer Dirk win, though not a large one.

Playoffs Nowitzki does win across the board (as far as Reference all-in-ones) to varying degrees (obviously playoff competition level varies and other caveats including one below)
.1884 to .1570
23.82 to 22.40
5.93 to 5.39
eyeballing it Dirk's late career runs may also give him a larger proportion of his playoff stats out of prime than Kobe's early career runs (though this a crude binary cutoff rather than a close look at where exactly their minutes fell).

That is just boxscore stuff from one site. Iirc raw-on off looks a lot better for Kobe than Dirk though here more than ever you're looking at uneven samples against uneven opponents and making a noisy measure noisier. Fwiw, the playoff RAPM that I've seen ('98-'19) has the gap much smaller (2.46 to 2.45, functionally a tie).