Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 — George Mikan

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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#81 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:50 pm

trex_8063 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
trex_8063 wrote:

Some good observations. This is one of the more striking features of these super-early pro games. I've said it before [elsewhere]: the degree to which the game changed going from pre-shotclock to the mid-late 60s is probably larger than the change that has happened since (or at least larger then what transpired over the next 35 years).


My opinion is that a big part of why they didn't improve [more rapidly] on shot mechanics and selection is simply this: they didn't have to to be competitive with their peers at the time.

Sort of as research for something I'm trying to write, I recently re-read that famous novel for teens/pre-teens, Hatchet by Gary Paulson.

There's a scene in it where the main character [Brian?] is trying to spear some fish in the lake, but can't get them. Even after he figures out how the water bends the light, so that he knows where to aim, as soon as he moves his arm the fish are too fast. He realizes he needs something like a bow and arrow, where he can have the tip of the projectile IN the water to start and the mechanism [bow-string] drawn back (no need for a large lead-distance for the projectile to gain momentum: all the force is contained in the drawn bow-string).

He realizes he needs to "invent" the bow and arrow to catch the fish.
He then ambiently wonders if early Man had similar realizations in similar circumstance, speculating that perhaps ALL inventions happened because they NEEDED to happen. ("Necessity is the mother of all invention", basically)


Players didn't immediately develop better ways of shooting because they frankly didn't NEED to take better quality shots to be competitive in this league environment (not because they were incapable of doing so, as some posters [not you] have seemed to insinuate).


So, I think the thoughts here are important, but I'd push back against the cause described as "they didn't have to shoot better in order to compete" even though I think there's a kernel of truth here.

The thing is, in a winner-take-all environment like this, everybody but the champs surely feels like if they could only find a way to make more shots and miss less they'd be the champs instead.



Sure, and I'm not suggesting total complacency by the players of the day (that's why the game progressed so quickly through the 50s and early 60s).
But nonetheless, what I said is essentially true when looking at this year (or those immediately around it) in isolation: these guys weren't going to be run out of the league for not being able to make 40% [or even 35-36%] of their FGA's because.......well, relatively few of their peers were either. i.e. They were still competitive even with these shots.

It's like the narratives of how Wilt/Russell pushed each other to greatness; ditto Bird/Magic, and other sports rivalries. Competition and true challenges spur better development (and this is true in any field outside of sport, too).
At this time, there were just very few players challenging the notion that a shot-diet which was netting ~34-35% from the field was good enough.

Minor tweaks were no doubt happening all the time, but pressure to entirely re-tool/re-invent the skillset [even though it was clearly very poor at the time] just wasn't there.


So I'm with you on the "rivals spurring each other to greatness", but would quibble with the idea that this happened with Wilt/Russell & Bird/Magic, but wasn't happening in earlier eras. The key thing in all cases is that you really have to look across years in order to see it.

And when you look year-by-year for signs of improvement, well, the leagues from this era were shifting considerably faster than later eras, and it was pushing guys out of stardom back to the sidelines who were of an age that we'd think should go in the opposite direction.

I think, incidentally, that this is always one of the key things to look at when evaluating the competitive level of a sport over time: When are the players peaking? If they are peaking at a younger age than we'd expect, this is often a sign that an influx of talent & technique are making guys obsolete. (Older than expected? Either the opposite or something is driving longevity that didn't always exist to the same degree.)

trex_8063 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
The data available to players and coaches back in the day was sorely lacking, and that made it far harder to tell what was working and what wasn't. And practically speaking this means that even changes that don't require a massive change in skill generation took longer to take hold.


Also sorely lacking in this time period is a WAY for information, mentorship, and visual models to disseminate. Games were not televised, internet didn't exist, live attendance was still pretty low. If someone DID suddenly come up with a far greater way of doing things, very few people would see or notice it (at first).
I'm actually surprised the game advanced as fast as it did given the limitations in terms of media for skills to spread.


Oh it's amazing, and I think the key thing to understand here is that is that the YMCA had amazing influence across the world in this era.

Naismith was working at the YMCA International Training School in Springfield, MA when he invented basketball in 1891.
Meanwhile, in 1895, a YMCA instructor (William Morgan) in Holyoak, MA invented a sport he called "mintonette", which then got rechristened "volleyball" when the new sport was demonstrated at - you guessed it - the YMCA International Training School in Springfield, MA.

There's also the game of "netball" that arose from a different interpretation of basketball rules in England in 1895. How did that person (Clara Gregory Baer) have the opportunity to have any interpretation at all? Well, the YMCA had printed publications that they were using to try to spread games like these across the globe as part of the Muscular Christianity movement.

And then there's Albert Spaulding, who Naismith asked to manufacture basketball to a specification. Spaulding would fill the same role for volleyball, and then look to promote the hell out of both sports.

And all of this happening at a time where basically every town has a high school gymnasium ripe for team sports like basketball & volleyball, and at a time where outdoor city design found it easy to reserve some rectangular space where courts could be placed (which I think served basketball better than volleyball given the relative flimsiness of the volleyball net compared to a metal hoop).

Truly, this was the era where sports were able to emerge from nothing to ubiquity like no other.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#82 » by homecourtloss » Thu Jul 11, 2024 7:55 pm

It’s amazing to see 5 pages worth of discussion for this first project thread. I’m really looking forward to see the rest
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#83 » by eminence » Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:37 pm

Tim Lehrbach wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:
Djoker wrote:I think Mikan being #1 in both OPOY and DPOY (which he definitely is) just speaks to what a revolutionary player he was for his time. He was tall, strong and well coordinated which gave him a huge leg up over the competition. Players in future eras just don't have that same physical advantage over their opposition, not even the likes of Wilt.

Saying he is and explaining factors that could lead to him being the opoy and dpoy is not really a coherent response to the question posited here: "if he is this dominant, why was there such little team seperation"?

Also not sure "definitely" makes much sense for the 50's when we are working with very little to go off


This is obviously the struggle at the beginning: in the absence of film, firsthand accounts, or complete stats, what counts as good evidence? There have been excellent contributions to this thread, truly, but if I had one wish for these early-year threads it would be more discussion on that question. It will always be the case, for any year including the present, that different folks bring different sources of wisdom to the table. Here, though, I think it would be good to be as explicit and transparent as possible what the basis for one's evaluations is. Not saying every source needs to be cited, but the more freely flowing the information, the better.

Again, not a criticism of anybody's good work here. But some meta-discussion about what the numbers, footage, articles, or anecdotes can tell us (and what they cannot definitively tell us) might (or might not) raise the analysis to an even higher level.


Things I feel confident assessing:
-Overall measures of team goodness (Win%/MOV/SRS) are great.
-Which side of the ball those teams are focused on, not as confident as current tracking data of course, but I'm pretty confident in my basic offense/defense splits.
-That Mikan's broad WOWY type numbers are top of the line. Others have positive/negative signals, but not nearly as strong, Mikan looks like the only 'MVP' type guy of the era - sub MVP guys can get lost in WOWY signals at small sample sizes.

Things I have some confidence in:
-Who the best scorers of the era are, FGA and TS% can really take you a long way here.
-Which offenses are most centered around one particular player - some product of FGA x Ast pretty strongly points towards who is making most of the decisions on any particular offense.
-With the above two and my O/D splits, I feel reasonably confident in identifying who I think the best overall offensive players are.
-When a player looks like a standout athlete on film (Mikan/Pollard/Davies/Schayes all in different ways).
-That the tallest players are generally having the most impact on defense (history, and the quick takeover of the league by taller players in spite of middling offensive statistics/skillsets relative to shorter players). Leading to some confidence in guessing who the best help defenders were (big guys who played a lot on good defenses). Rebounding/minutes played being tracked in coming seasons makes this much easier.
-Contemporary accounts of general goodness - folks usually figure out which players are 'good' and 'not' pretty reliably.

Things I generally don't have confidence in, perhaps in some special cases:
-How most players are accumulating their statistics - Is Cervi getting to the line by driving a lot, by flopping, by some other way? I don't know. Not enough film on the majority of players from the era. I've seen enough of the Lakers in particular to feel pretty good describing (the stars at least), and enough of a guy like Schayes who played into the 60s.
-Contemporary accounts of why players are how good they are. 95% of fans would talk about Wilt's scoring first when talking about his game/impact. Komenich as an example from '50 - I seriously doubt the 83 EFG+ guy had an unstoppable hook shot at any point in his career.
-Tied to the above - I have very limited confidence in contemporary accounts of who the best man defenders (and thus overall defenders to many fans) were. Hustle goes a long ways in visual assessments on this front, but doesn't correlate all that well with goodness (imo). A little bit of love for guys lauded by their fellow players.

I'm sure some other things I'm not thinking of now.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#84 » by Tim Lehrbach » Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:48 pm

Doctor MJ wrote:Truly, this was the era where sports were able to emerge from nothing to ubiquity like no other.


The historical context is fascinating indeed!

I'd add that professional sports, while not novel by 1950, were still far from guaranteed acceptance by the masses. It took a long time to peel back the elitism that attended 19th Century sport, particularly following from Victorian amateurism and the Muscular Christianity you mentioned, eventually culminating in the Olympic movement. Sport, at least among the upper classes (key because they have the purchasing power), was for human excellence or for leisure, not for earning a living or gambling.

Boxing and baseball took hold in the USA and captured the public imagination, but initially even these were not considered elite sport in the way that we commonly associate with professionalism today. They had to become, as you say, ubiquitous before the big investments arrived. And there was no assurance that there was room for more professional sports. That basketball, having spotted those sports (and, I suppose, American football, hockey, tennis, golf, others?) such a substantial lead in participation, let alone professionalism, eventually drew the great athletes it needed to have a prayer at retaining a paying audience is a feat unto itself.

As I have said previously, I do not know the early "proto-professional" stages of basketball's development and always enjoy it when you provide some of that history. But it is striking to me that out of several upstart leagues, barnstorming teams, etc. we arrived at the NBA in as impressive a form as it took in 1950.

"Not basketball..." perhaps not as we recognize it. I laugh at some elements of it, too. (See: all my talk about shot selection.) But the professional game could not have exploded in popularity if not for the legitimacy of the athletes and the refinement of the game from its previous iterations. I guess I'm just saying it's great (and a testament to these early titans of the game) that the NBA got off the ground at all.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#85 » by Tim Lehrbach » Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:02 pm

eminence wrote:
Tim Lehrbach wrote:
OhayoKD wrote:Saying he is and explaining factors that could lead to him being the opoy and dpoy is not really a coherent response to the question posited here: "if he is this dominant, why was there such little team seperation"?

Also not sure "definitely" makes much sense for the 50's when we are working with very little to go off


This is obviously the struggle at the beginning: in the absence of film, firsthand accounts, or complete stats, what counts as good evidence? There have been excellent contributions to this thread, truly, but if I had one wish for these early-year threads it would be more discussion on that question. It will always be the case, for any year including the present, that different folks bring different sources of wisdom to the table. Here, though, I think it would be good to be as explicit and transparent as possible what the basis for one's evaluations is. Not saying every source needs to be cited, but the more freely flowing the information, the better.

Again, not a criticism of anybody's good work here. But some meta-discussion about what the numbers, footage, articles, or anecdotes can tell us (and what they cannot definitively tell us) might (or might not) raise the analysis to an even higher level.


Things I feel confident assessing:
-Overall measures of team goodness (Win%/MOV/SRS) are great.
-Which side of the ball those teams are focused on, not as confident as current tracking data of course, but I'm pretty confident in my basic offense/defense splits.
-That Mikan's broad WOWY type numbers are top of the line. Others have positive/negative signals, but not nearly as strong, Mikan looks like the only 'MVP' type guy of the era - sub MVP guys can get lost in WOWY signals at small sample sizes.

Things I have some confidence in:
-Who the best scorers of the era are, FGA and TS% can really take you a long way here.
-Which offenses are most centered around one particular player - some product of FGA x Ast pretty strongly points towards who is making most of the decisions on any particular offense.
-With the above two and my O/D splits, I feel reasonably confident in identifying who I think the best overall offensive players are.
-When a player looks like a standout athlete on film (Mikan/Pollard/Davies/Schayes all in different ways).
-That the tallest players are generally having the most impact on defense (history, and the quick takeover of the league by taller players in spite of middling offensive statistics/skillsets relative to shorter players). Leading to some confidence in guessing who the best help defenders were (big guys who played a lot on good defenses). Rebounding/minutes played being tracked in coming seasons makes this much easier.
-Contemporary accounts of general goodness - folks usually figure out which players are 'good' and 'not' pretty reliably.

Things I generally don't have confidence in, perhaps in some special cases:
-How most players are accumulating their statistics - Is Cervi getting to the line by driving a lot, by flopping, by some other way? I don't know. Not enough film on the majority of players from the era. I've seen enough of the Lakers in particular to feel pretty good describing (the stars at least), and enough of a guy like Schayes who played into the 60s.
-Contemporary accounts of why players are how good they are. 95% of fans would talk about Wilt's scoring first when talking about his game/impact. Komenich as an example from '50 - I seriously doubt the 83 EFG+ guy had an unstoppable hook shot at any point in his career.
-Tied to the above - I have very limited confidence in contemporary accounts of who the best man defenders (and thus overall defenders to many fans) were. Hustle goes a long ways in visual assessments on this front, but doesn't correlate all that well with goodness (imo). A little bit of love for guys lauded by their fellow players.

I'm sure some other things I'm not thinking of now.


Great stuff, thank you! It may seem elementary or second-nature to those of you who are both more adept with statistics and versed in history than I am, but this kind of exposition is super helpful.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#86 » by eminence » Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:45 pm

It’s imperfect, but I’ve gone through looking at a modern team pretending I only have stats from the 50s before - maybe that I have 1 or 2 games of film. And seeing where my real thoughts would differ from my 50’s thoughts to see if there were any ways I could tweak my analysis (honestly haven’t found a ton, but it was still a fun exercise).

I did the ‘24 Wolves recently - I think my main difference was splitting defensive credit more evenly between Gobert/KAT( still favoring Gobert), and also giving KAT a bit more offensive credit (I think his offensive inconsistency is difficult to capture in a box-score and a game or two of film). Basically 50s me was higher on KAT and thought they were a big 3 sort of team with KAT at the head.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#87 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:57 pm

eminence wrote:It’s imperfect, but I’ve gone through looking at a modern team pretending I only have stats from the 50s before - maybe that I have 1 or 2 games of film. And seeing where my real thoughts would differ from my 50’s thoughts to see if there were any ways I could tweak my analysis (honestly haven’t found a ton, but it was still a fun exercise).

I did the ‘24 Wolves recently - I think my main difference was splitting defensive credit more evenly between Gobert/KAT( still favoring Gobert), and also giving KAT a bit more offensive credit (I think his offensive inconsistency is difficult to capture in a box-score and a game or two of film). Basically 50s me was higher on KAT and thought they were a big 3 sort of team with KAT at the head.


Just wanted to say I'm a fan of this approach.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#88 » by Tim Lehrbach » Thu Jul 11, 2024 9:58 pm

eminence wrote:It’s imperfect, but I’ve gone through looking at a modern team pretending I only have stats from the 50s before - maybe that I have 1 or 2 games of film. And seeing where my real thoughts would differ from my 50’s thoughts to see if there were any ways I could tweak my analysis (honestly haven’t found a ton, but it was still a fun exercise).

I did the ‘24 Wolves recently - I think my main difference was splitting defensive credit more evenly between Gobert/KAT( still favoring Gobert), and also giving KAT a bit more offensive credit (I think his offensive inconsistency is difficult to capture in a box-score and a game or two of film). Basically 50s me was higher on KAT and thought they were a big 3 sort of team with KAT at the head.


Now that's super interesting. Not just as a test of methods for studying and evaluating 50s players, but also potentially flipping it on its head to ask what we might learn from taking a broader look at the present with only basic data. It's always possible we bring too much -- we can be too close and have an overload of information to confirm a wide range of judgments -- to some of our conclusions about the present. In other words, any mismatch between your ideas about the Timberwolves using all current information, on one hand, and the conclusions drawn by applying a simpler "50s" lens to it, on the other, can be instructive in both directions. Great exercise. I might recommend we try it intermittently as a check on our consistency.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#89 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jul 11, 2024 10:21 pm

Tim Lehrbach wrote:
eminence wrote:It’s imperfect, but I’ve gone through looking at a modern team pretending I only have stats from the 50s before - maybe that I have 1 or 2 games of film. And seeing where my real thoughts would differ from my 50’s thoughts to see if there were any ways I could tweak my analysis (honestly haven’t found a ton, but it was still a fun exercise).

I did the ‘24 Wolves recently - I think my main difference was splitting defensive credit more evenly between Gobert/KAT( still favoring Gobert), and also giving KAT a bit more offensive credit (I think his offensive inconsistency is difficult to capture in a box-score and a game or two of film). Basically 50s me was higher on KAT and thought they were a big 3 sort of team with KAT at the head.


Now that's super interesting. Not just as a test of methods for studying and evaluating 50s players, but also potentially flipping it on its head to ask what we might learn from taking a broader look at the present with only basic data. It's always possible we bring too much -- we can be too close and have an overload of information to confirm a wide range of judgments -- to some of our conclusions about the present. In other words, any mismatch between your ideas about the Timberwolves using all current information, on one hand, and the conclusions drawn by applying a simpler "50s" lens to it, on the other, can be instructive in both directions. Great exercise. I might recommend we try it intermittently as a check on our consistency.


Indeed.

For me personally with our last iteration of the Top 100 I went with an approach that veered further away from "best at basketball" so that I could have an approach that was more consistent across era.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#90 » by ZeppelinPage » Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:25 pm

POY:
1. George Mikan
2. Alex Groza
3. Jim Pollard
4. Dolph Schayes
5. Bob Davies

Not too many surprises. It's going to be Mikan for the next few years here. I think Pollard is quite underrated in general. Some players, coaches, and executives (even the Lakers own GM) believed that Pollard was just as good as Mikan, but was forced to sacrifice more of his offensive game in order to fit in around the team. Regardless, he was the best passer on the team, an elite defender, an elite rebounder for his size, and was still a threat to score. He likely had a triple double (probably one of the first in NBA history) in the deciding game of the Finals. Pollard was such a valuable Swiss army knife type of player that it's hard to keep him out of the top five.

OPOY:
1. George Mikan
2. Alex Groza
3. Bob Davies

Pretty straightforward. Mikan and Groza were hyper-efficient scorers like no one else in the league. Davies led his team in points and assists, and was no doubt valuable being able to create for teammates, even if the Royals tended to share the ball more between their stars. I'm giving him a pass in the playoffs because he was playing injured.

DPOY:
1. George Mikan
2. Jim Pollard
3. George Senesky

Mikan was just too valuable during the early 50s to not regularly receive DPOY. Pollard's ability to do everything on defense, as well as rebound, certainly makes him a contender though. The last spot was difficult, but Senesky is still in his prime and can lock down star players. I think having a physical defender of his caliber in a full-court press is valuable in an era where dribbling was so difficult.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#91 » by eminence » Thu Jul 11, 2024 11:44 pm

Zeppelin - Do you know what injury issue Davies had?
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#92 » by ZeppelinPage » Fri Jul 12, 2024 1:17 am

eminence wrote:Zeppelin - Do you know what injury issue Davies had?


Probably should have verified it before I posted, as I was going off the top of my head, but I mixed up the 1949 and 1950 seasons, as Davies was actually quite sick in the 1949 Western Division Finals.

Davies did suffer a "badly sprained ankle" in early March of 1950 and missed the next two weeks. He came back to play the final two games and then went straight into the tiebreaker against the Lakers (where he scored 26 points and performed very well). He ended the season with a poor series against the Pistons, who were a very physical team that led the league in fouls. The series was foul-heavy and rough on the players, which probably impacted Davies' performance. There is no mention of him playing injured or any ankle issues still lingering.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#93 » by ShaqAttac » Fri Jul 12, 2024 6:28 am

VOTE

POY


1. MIKAN
I wanna vote MIKAN for 2 but imma keep my vote in case i need to use it for bron.

This is also p simple. He was waay better than everyone else in a waay no one else was, was the best on o and d, and won 7 rings.
DoctorMJ wrote:George Mikan (1924) "Mr. Basketball", 6'10" center, the first true big man, 7 total pro titles with Chicago Gears & Lakers

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Origin: Illinois
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Series Wins: 23
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POY wins: 8, POY shares: 8.0
OPOY wins: 3, OPOY shares: 3.8
DPOY wins: 6, DPOY shares: 6.2


The obvious top player from the era so maybe not a ton to be gleaned from going into further detail, but some observations:

- Mikan appears to have been the best offensive player in pro basketball basically from the time he turned pro. Eventually others arrive in the league to top him, but he remains elite until the rule change of 1951 that widened the key from 6 to 12 feet specifically to stop him. From that point onward, while Mikan likely remained the best rebounder in the world, it seems that the rule change did have the desired effect.

- Mikan almost certainly would have been an even more impactful defender from the jump if not for the banning of goaltending. As it was, it seems like it took Mikan some time to re-optimize his defensive play. He had a recurring issue of foul trouble that was often the Achilles heel for his teams win the lost.

- So far as I can tell, Mikan's defensive dominance in the NBA was less about shotblocking and more about rebounding. Certainly the shotblocking threat was there to a degree, but in a league with such weak shooting percentage, rebounding was arguably king.

ik we dont got data, but he won the 2nd most and he was way better than every1 else. Seems like a simple 2 to me.


Mikan's team won and he was the MVP and everyone thought he was the best. Idk why he wouldn't be number 1 tbh. Em said he also had the best WOWY but i dont know where that is. Eni made a good arg his team was stacked but 11-2 is pretty dominant and no one's tried arguing for someone else. Scoring leader on +7 ts also sounds pretty good.

SCHAYES

He was the best player on the runner-up. I don't know what his impact was but he was top 5 in scoring and assists and rebounds and everyone thought he was the best player on the 2nd best team so I'll take him 2nd.

3. GORZA

Also put up big numbers but his team didn't win as much as the other two. Also didn't do good without Beard. +13 and +20 shooting is also pretty crazy though and he probably was a big help on defense.

MAX[/b\]

22 points on crazy ts and won 2 playoff rounds before losing to the champs. Eni also pointed out how his team improved alot on d when he joined and won the year before. Also made all-nba first team.

[b]DAVIES


Was voted on the top 100 and led one of the best teams. Alot of people said he was also the 2nd best player of the era so I guess ill go with him. Played worse in the playoffs
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#94 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jul 12, 2024 2:12 pm

This has been a very interesying thread to read through so far

I think based on what i have read so far i would have to agree with everyone else on mikan 1st

Too good on both ends and too much evidence of impact on winning

Groza vs schayes is fascinating because groza stats are eye popping yet without morr years in the nba and evidence his impact matched the gaudy efficiency is hard to know how truly valuable that hyper efficient scoring was on its own whereas schayes has a longer pro career showing he was a player who strongly aided teams winning

Is such a shame groza career went like it did

My top 5 in order

1 Mikan- slam dunk pick as a monster on both ends for the era. Probably the only center ever who may have been the best defense and offense player in the league

2 Schayes- clear impact signals in a long and succesful career, great reputation as a winning player and solid team success

3 Groza- elite outlier efficiency in volume but is unclear what else he provided to me with so few seasons and the few ones being in more mediocre teams

4 Risen- he seems to have been the anchor of a excellent scoring defense so albwit we dont have exact pace a great defensive Center goes a long way in a era with less developed offense

5 Zalofsky- he seems to be one of the best scoring guards of the era and managed to outperform the more fampus davies statistically speaking. Put him below arnie cause i thinl a scoring guard is prolly less valuable than a defensive in general in that era
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#95 » by AEnigma » Fri Jul 12, 2024 3:54 pm

ShaqAttac wrote:MAX
22 points on crazy ts and won 2 playoff rounds before losing to the champs. Eni also pointed out how his team improved alot on d when he joined and won the year before. Also made all-nba first team.

DAVIES
Was voted on the top 100 and led one of the best teams. Alot of people said he was also the 2nd best player of the era so I guess ill go with him. Played worse in the playoffs

Messaged.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#96 » by AEnigma » Fri Jul 12, 2024 4:26 pm

Votes are tallied. I recorded 11 voters: Djoker, Trex, AEnigma, Eminence, Ardee, Dutchball97, Dr. Positivity, Doctor MJ, LA Bird, ZeppelinPage, and falcolombardi. Everyone voted for RPoY; LA Bird, ardee, and falco abstained from both OPoY and DPoY, and I abstained from OPoY. Please let me know if I seem to have missed or otherwise improperly recorded a vote.

1949-50 Results

Retro Player of the Year — George Mikan (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player      1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th Pts   POY Shares
1. George Mikan  11  0   0   0   0   110   1.000
2a. Dolph Schayes  0  6  4  1  0   65   0.591
2b. Alex Groza    0   5   6   0   0  65   0.591
4. Bob Davies      0   0   0   4   1  13   0.118
5. Jim Pollard     0   0   1   0   3  8   0.073
6. Al Cervi    0   0   0   2   1   7   0.064
7. Max Zaslofsky   0   0   0   1   3   6   0.055
8. Bobby Wanzer    0   0   0   1  2   5   0.045
9. Fred Schaus    0   0   0   1   1   4   0.036
10. Arnie Risen    0   0   0   1   0   3   0.027


(Retro) Offensive Player of the Year — George Mikan

Code: Select all

Player          1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. George Mikan    5    2    0     31     0.886
2. Alex Groza    2   4   1     23     0.657
3. Dolph Schayes  0    1    4     7     0.200
4. Bob Davies    0    0    2      2     0.057


(Retro) Defensive Player of the Year — George Mikan (Unanimous)

Code: Select all

Player          1st   2nd   3rd   Points  Shares
1. George Mikan  8    0     0      40     1.000
2. Arnie Risen   0    3     0       9     0.225
3. Al Cervi       0    2     2      8     0.200
4. Milo Komenich   0    1     3      6     0.150
5. George Senesky   0    1    1     4     0.100
6. Jim Pollard    0    1     0      3     0.075
7. Kleggie Hermsen  0    0    2     2    0.050


Congratulations to George Mikan for winning all three awards, two of them unanimously.

1951 thread will open shortly.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 — George Mikan 

Post#97 » by bastillon » Sat Jul 13, 2024 11:08 am

Interesting results. As I stated before, I will not be voting on the pre-shot clock years. However, I do have concerns that the voters are more focusing on the names instead of the analysis of games and stats. Let's just remember that the NBA history tells us that generally speaking bigs have lesser impact on the offensive end compared to guards and wings. Granted, there are exceptions to this rule such as Kareem, Shaq and Joker. Moreover, pre-shot clock era is a different sport so maybe it was different back then. Nevertheless, I have serious doubts about Mikan's status as OPOY and multiple players could've been put ahead of him. Hopefully Mikan will be voted on based on analysis of his games and numbers instead of his name alone.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#98 » by bastillon » Sat Jul 13, 2024 11:15 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
bastillon wrote:I will just note that I'll vote once we get to the shot clock era. This, to me, is not really basketball yet.


Hey bastillon,

First off, good to see you here again!

But I have to say: While you're far from along in believing the above, the more historical analysis I do the less significant I see the shot clock in actually who has the advantage in the game.

Because of the timing of things, it's easy to think that bringing about the shot clock to speed things up moved the game away from Mikan, but in actuality the shot clock was a response to the stalling tactics most associated with underdog teams once they had the league. Hence, being used against Mikan's team rather than for it.

In a nutshell, because the rule was added simply because people thought watching players stall was boring, not because it was too big of an advantage, and from a Player Comparison perspective I think we overrate it's significance.

Frankly, I'd say the widening of the key in '51-52 probably had a bigger effect on what actually worked on any given possession.


Thanks Doc. Good to see you too!

You're making my point for me. Stalling tactics?! That's what you call a different sport. I'm not saying it favors Mikan or Mikan's opponents. It's just sooo different from the basketball being played in later years that those RPOY shares don't deserve the same recognition.
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 

Post#99 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 13, 2024 3:59 pm

bastillon wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
bastillon wrote:I will just note that I'll vote once we get to the shot clock era. This, to me, is not really basketball yet.


Hey bastillon,

First off, good to see you here again!

But I have to say: While you're far from along in believing the above, the more historical analysis I do the less significant I see the shot clock in actually who has the advantage in the game.

Because of the timing of things, it's easy to think that bringing about the shot clock to speed things up moved the game away from Mikan, but in actuality the shot clock was a response to the stalling tactics most associated with underdog teams once they had the league. Hence, being used against Mikan's team rather than for it.

In a nutshell, because the rule was added simply because people thought watching players stall was boring, not because it was too big of an advantage, and from a Player Comparison perspective I think we overrate it's significance.

Frankly, I'd say the widening of the key in '51-52 probably had a bigger effect on what actually worked on any given possession.


Thanks Doc. Good to see you too!

You're making my point for me. Stalling tactics?! That's what you call a different sport. I'm not saying it favors Mikan or Mikan's opponents. It's just sooo different from the basketball being played in later years that those RPOY shares don't deserve the same recognition.


If it's not much changing how you become a POY level player, then why does it matter here?

I'll add: Even today, when you grow up playing basketball at whatever court is available to you, you generally aren't playing with a shot clock because that requires actual digital technology, so the idea that you need a shot clock for it to be the same sport just doesn't make sense. No one looks at kids playing in a school yard and says "What sport is that? What? No it's not basketball. It's not basketball without a shot clock!".
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Re: Retro Player of the Year 1949-50 — George Mikan 

Post#100 » by Doctor MJ » Sat Jul 13, 2024 4:02 pm

bastillon wrote:Interesting results. As I stated before, I will not be voting on the pre-shot clock years. However, I do have concerns that the voters are more focusing on the names instead of the analysis of games and stats. Let's just remember that the NBA history tells us that generally speaking bigs have lesser impact on the offensive end compared to guards and wings. Granted, there are exceptions to this rule such as Kareem, Shaq and Joker. Moreover, pre-shot clock era is a different sport so maybe it was different back then. Nevertheless, I have serious doubts about Mikan's status as OPOY and multiple players could've been put ahead of him. Hopefully Mikan will be voted on based on analysis of his games and numbers instead of his name alone.


I would suggest that things were different back when the key looked like an actual key...

Image

and in fact that's precisely why they widened the key.
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