RealGM 2025 Greatest Peaks Project #1 — 2013 LeBron James

[ReggiesKnicks]

I'd have Bobby's peak defensively as '77. But anywho, no version of either touch prime Draymond. LeBron has never replicated Draymonds role, the volume difference in shots challenged all over the court is gargantuan.

I won't disagree about volume. I will push back on effectiveness, understand volume is important.

Draymond 2016 DFGA/G: 19.0
Draymond 2016 DFG% Diff: -7.8%

LeBron 2016 DFGA/G: 10.1
LeBron 2016 DFG% Diff: -13.5%

No player with LeBron's volume contests ever approached -13.5% FG% in the 2010s in the postseason.

I view Draymond Green as a generation defender, FWIW.

RE Bobby Jones:

I think any year through 1978 has an argument as his peak defensively, he started losing some juice after 1978, and it is hard to pinpoint defensive effectiveness from the ABA to the NBA merger.

-7.8% on 19.0 attempts saves more points than -13.5% on 10.1 attempts assuming the shot distribution is the same.

Just thought I'd point that out.

This is true at a base level, assuming all shots defended are the same shots.

Of course, as I pointed out in my original post, LeBron had many shots defended, which were high-percentage shots like transition opportunities.

[Djoker]

I won't disagree about volume. I will push back on effectiveness, understand volume is important.

Draymond 2016 DFGA/G: 19.0
Draymond 2016 DFG% Diff: -7.8%

LeBron 2016 DFGA/G: 10.1
LeBron 2016 DFG% Diff: -13.5%

No player with LeBron's volume contests ever approached -13.5% FG% in the 2010s in the postseason.

I view Draymond Green as a generation defender, FWIW.

RE Bobby Jones:

I think any year through 1978 has an argument as his peak defensively, he started losing some juice after 1978, and it is hard to pinpoint defensive effectiveness from the ABA to the NBA merger.

-7.8% on 19.0 attempts saves more points than -13.5% on 10.1 attempts assuming the shot distribution is the same.

Just thought I'd point that out.

This is true at a base level, assuming all shots defended are the same shots.

Of course, as I pointed out in my original post, LeBron had many shots defended, which were high-percentage shots like transition opportunities.

In the 2016 PS, Draymond contested 7.3 shots per game within 6 feet and Lebron contested 3.1 shots per game within 6 feet of the basket. Despite Lebron's superior %, Draymond actually saved more points from these high leverage situations.

[ReggiesKnicks]

-7.8% on 19.0 attempts saves more points than -13.5% on 10.1 attempts assuming the shot distribution is the same.

Just thought I'd point that out.

This is true at a base level, assuming all shots defended are the same shots.

Of course, as I pointed out in my original post, LeBron had many shots defended, which were high-percentage shots like transition opportunities.

In the 2016 PS, Draymond contested 7.3 shots per game within 6 feet and Lebron contested 3.1 shots per game within 6 feet of the basket. Despite Lebron's superior %, Draymond actually saved more points from these high leverage situations.

There is no doubt Draymond defended more shots than LeBron

Draymond is a Top 10 defender of all-time, which is a Top 10 made up of all Centers and a couple Power Forwards who were capable of playing Center like Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett.

[f4p]

If being neck and neck with Magic is amazing for you (with a good chance of falling behind), you might want to reassess where you rate Jordan as a basketball player.

(and to be clear, at this point, Magic is the only player where a comparison with Jordan means anything as it pertains to Squared's RAPM)

Depending on the day, I have magic 4th or 5th on my all time list. And given that RAPM is noisy on a good day and even noisier given that Squared isn't a robot who can track an infinite number of 80s games, if Jordan is neck and neck with magic then it would certainly place his error bars well into GOAT territory and given that the actual tracked on/off is now literally #1 in the playoffs, that seems good enough.

First time seeing a fellow Magic enjoyer. Where do you have him in term of peak all time? Is it also top 5 range

Peak, probably a little lower. I want to say last time I started talking about him around 8 or 9. Don't think I could get him above Lebron or Jordan or 2000 Shaq or 2003 Duncan and then there's still a 1974/77 Kareem and 1967 Wilt and 1993/4 Hakeem that I'd probably put ahead. But it starts getting close once we're in that range.

[f4p]

1. '09 LeBron James (2010, 2012, 2013, 2016)

2. '91 Michael Jordan (1989, 1990)

In 2009, LeBron produced, for my money, the most impressive individual season in the history of the sport. It's hard for me to imagine a more valuable season across both sides of the ball through the regular season and postseason. I do not think it was the best version of him as a player - that would probably be 2016, so it really depends on how I want to approach the question.

Yeah that's the question for me. 2009 is probably the most dominant basketball ever put on a court but I'm not certain it wasn't just LeBron on a heater in the playoffs and avoiding a Celtics or 2011 Mavs defense vs something he could have done 100 times out of 100, whereas I think Jordan basically repeats 1991 every time.

This is a bit odd to me of an argument cause we know jordan mostly didnt replicate his 91 playoffs scoring in previous or later years and we know his efficiency went lower against top end defense (knicks 92, knicks 93, seattle 96, detroit 88-90)

well if we're just looking at surrounding years, Jordan's overall playoff numbers in 1991 don't look that different. his TS% was basically between 59-60% from 88-91, with the pistons not really being the pistons any more in '91. his PER from his 2nd year on was like 28-30 and then basically 32 for both 1990 and 1991. his WS48 does take a nice leap in '91 but that's arguably just because the bulls were so dominant. he still went 0.270 and 0.284 before the 2nd highest number ever at 0.333 WS48 in 1991. and BPM he was eclipsing 12 regularly and was over 13 in 1990 so the 14.6 in 1991 doesn't look that crazy. it just looks like a typical peak, the best year in a series of years. whereas for lebron, we're talking a guy at 23-24 PER for his first 3 playoffs who shoots up to 37.4. then falls back to 29 and 24 again. his WS48 is a ludicrous 0.399 but it had never been above 0.200 before that and only 0.242 the next season (and then lower in 2011). BPM, same massive outlier. now starting in 2012, lebron just started stringing together unending all-time playoff runs, but 2009 is so far away from everything before that (and far away from everybody else in history).

now to be clear, when i say lebron was on a heater, i wasn't really trying to take that into account when i said the 100 out of 100 thing. lebron shot very well. that happened. it's part of what makes it his peak level of play. i think if he faces, chicago/atlanta/orlando 100 times, he basically does the same thing over and over. my 100 out of 100 comment is more that i don't know if lebron got a different set of opponents, which i think wondering how someone would do in other circumstances is fair to consider if we're evaluating someone's actual peak play and not just who they got to face. and from that perspective, i largely think of lebron's career as pre-2012 (up to the 2011 finals) and then everything after.

early career lebron was not as comfortable with his jump shot. and arguably for good reason, because he wasn't that great at shooting. he shot 35% in the 2007 finals. he shot 35% or so in the 2008 series against the celtics and had a 2-18 game with 10 turnovers. he collapsed against the 2011 mavs defense that forced him (to an extreme degree) to be a jumpshooter. i don't think that person necessarily disappeared for 6 weeks in the 2009 playoffs. maybe he was so on that if he faced the 2011 mavs, he just breaks them in the first few games and they have to go back to a more traditional defense. but i'm not sure. maybe he just avoided some kryptonite.

whereas i don't think there was an answer for 1991 jordan to anything like that degree. he put up basically the 2nd best playoff numbers ever (to be fair, way way behind 2009 lebron) and i'm not sure any set of opponents is knocking that down much below "all-time playoff run" like say 30 PER/0.300 WS48/11 BPM. even in something like the 1993 knicks series, jordan still put up 32/6/7 with a miniscule 2.3 TO/G. and that's certainly an all-time defense. and in 1990 against the pistons he actually put up 32/7/6 on a respectable TS%.

whereas maybe lebron gets got in the wrong matchup. i also think the fact that cleveland blew a 20 point lead in game 1 against orlando and then was a lebron buzzer-beater from blowing another 20 point lead in game 2 speak to the fact that lebron just wasn't the game managing maestro he would be for most of the rest of his career. i don't think 2013 or 2016 lebron are letting those comebacks happen as easily. and not 1991 jordan.

but like i said, i'm still somewhat on the fence. 2009 lebron is the greatest floor-raising regular season ever followed by basically shattering every playoff stat record you can. like i said, in terms of the actual people he faced, including the #1 defense orlando, it's the most dominant anyone has ever been. but as many other votes in this very thread show, it's not even necessarily considered better than other lebron seasons when people pick his peak.

[homecourtloss]

-7.8% on 19.0 attempts saves more points than -13.5% on 10.1 attempts assuming the shot distribution is the same.

Just thought I'd point that out.

This is true at a base level, assuming all shots defended are the same shots.

Of course, as I pointed out in my original post, LeBron had many shots defended, which were high-percentage shots like transition opportunities.

In the 2016 PS, Draymond contested 7.3 shots per game within 6 feet and Lebron contested 3.1 shots per game within 6 feet of the basket. Despite Lebron's superior %, Draymond actually saved more points from these high leverage situations.

I don’t think anyone is contesting that James is a better defender than Draymond as Draymond is an ATG defender. What people are saying is that James could provide incredible defense lift and versatility WHILE being an all time great offensive engine who scores and creates which somewhat pencils him into a category all his own.

Take a look at this 2016 run and the defense he’s playing while running an offense in which he was +13 to +14 rORtg while on or a +9 rORtg while on in 2013 (+23 without Wade). It’s ridiculous.

[Djoker]

This is true at a base level, assuming all shots defended are the same shots.

Of course, as I pointed out in my original post, LeBron had many shots defended, which were high-percentage shots like transition opportunities.

In the 2016 PS, Draymond contested 7.3 shots per game within 6 feet and Lebron contested 3.1 shots per game within 6 feet of the basket. Despite Lebron's superior %, Draymond actually saved more points from these high leverage situations.

I don’t think anyone is contesting that James is a better defender than Draymond as Draymond is an ATG defender. What people are saying is that James could provide incredible defense lift and versatility WHILE being an all time great offensive engine who scores and creates which somewhat pencils him into a category all his own.

Take a look at this 2016 run and the defense he’s playing while running an offense in which he was +13 to +14 rORtg while on or a +9 rORtg while on in 2013 (+23 without Wade). It’s ridiculous.

Those Lebron-led offenses while ON court were also significantly worse against the two really good teams he faced in those runs: the 2013 Spurs (+6.4) and 2016 Warriors (+5.9).

But yea 2016 Lebron is an all-time great non-big defender in the playoffs. Have no problem with that statement.

[Special_Puppy]

1. '09 LeBron James (2010, 2012, 2013, 2016)

2. '91 Michael Jordan (1989, 1990)

In 2009, LeBron produced, for my money, the most impressive individual season in the history of the sport. It's hard for me to imagine a more valuable season across both sides of the ball through the regular season and postseason. I do not think it was the best version of him as a player - that would probably be 2016, so it really depends on how I want to approach the question.

Yeah that's the question for me. 2009 is probably the most dominant basketball ever put on a court but I'm not certain it wasn't just LeBron on a heater in the playoffs and avoiding a Celtics or 2011 Mavs defense vs something he could have done 100 times out of 100, whereas I think Jordan basically repeats 1991 every time.

Just want to add to this. Here's how 2009 LeBron did in the playoffs in various metrics with his 2nd best showing in parathesis

BBRef BPM: 17.5 (12.7 in 2018)
Backpicks BPM: 12 (9.5 in 2016)
RAPTOR: 16.1 (13.1 in 2021)

And here's 1991 Jordan

BBRef BPM: 14.6 (13.7 in 1990)
Backpicks BPM 12.1 (9.4 in 1990)
RAPTOR 13.9 (12.1 in 1990)

Thing to note is that the difference between 1991 and his 2nd best season is smaller than the difference between 2009 and LeBron's 2nd best season. The fact that Jordan's 2nd best post-season outing was only a year prior means that you could interpret 1991 as MJ simply building on top of his fantastic 1990 campaign.

Overall if you simulated the 1991+2009 post-seasons 100 times, I think both do worse than they did in reality but LeBron drops off somewhat more than Jordan did.

[homecourtloss]

What an interesting way to phrase "gets torched by Lebron's 09 run per rate in all numbers I like". So much so, your only real retort is arguing it doesn't count

I'm not saying it doesn't count. I'm saying it's a pretty damn obvious outlier.

It doesn't get much clearer than that when he doesn't ever come close to that 14-game stretch again.

Let's add 2020 + 2021 Donovan Mitchell as a GOAT level scorer while we're at it. Peak 33.9 ppg on +7.1 rTS across 17 playoff games.

Only irrational people can actually believe that Lebron is anywhere close as a scorer. Your argument is comedy as always.

He was that playoff run...unless you are talking...hypothetically.

Ignoring of course Lebron was en-route to a better year (by common box-score) next season before he injured his elbow

Nobody cares about hypotheticals.

Unless it's Lebron's scoring lol.

What an interesting way to phrase "gets torched by Lebron's 09 run per rate in all numbers I like". So much so, your only real retort is arguing it doesn't count

I'm not saying it doesn't count. I'm saying it's a pretty damn obvious outlier.

It doesn't get much clearer than that when he doesn't ever come close to that 14-game stretch again.

Let's add 2020 + 2021 Donovan Mitchell as a GOAT level scorer while we're at it. Peak 33.9 ppg on +7.1 rTS across 17 playoff games.

Only irrational people can actually believe that Lebron is anywhere close as a scorer. Your argument is comedy as always.

He was that playoff run...unless you are talking...hypothetically.

Ignoring of course Lebron was en-route to a better year (by common box-score) next season before he injured his elbow

Nobody cares about hypotheticals.

Unless it's Lebron's scoring lol.

Before the elbow injury in 2010, LeBron was scoring just as well 66% TS, 61% eFG, 56/49 shooting splits, +15 BPM. It’s funny when the “outlier,” “didn’t come close to this again,” comments come up because nobody else including a certain favorite has come close to 2009. Why didn’t he have an “outlier” playoff run above all his other runs?

On that note, the entire “outlier” discussion is silly when labeling any player’s peak playoff run as an “outlier” when discussing the best peaks in NBA history. These players’ careers are outliers, their best seasons outliers, etc.

But, again, by definition, 2009 LeBron’s scoring and turnover % aren’t technical outliers. If we’re going to say we’re speaking colloquially, well, I don’t what to say when we’ve spent hours trying to calculate on court ratings for retired players.

47.5 points per 100 possessions is not an outlier by the IQR definition nor by the modified z-score method. Some would consider it a mild outlier by the standard z-score method.

The 8.7 turnover percentage is not an outlier by the IQR definition nor by the modified z-score method. Some might consider it a mild outlier by the standard z-score method.

[Top10alltime]

But yea 2016 Lebron is an all-time great non-big defender in the playoffs. Have no problem with that statement.

GOAT level, actually.

[ReggiesKnicks]

But yea 2016 Lebron is an all-time great non-big defender in the playoffs. Have no problem with that statement.

GOAT level, actually.

GOAT level non-big defender, absolutely.

GOAL level compared to guys like Russell, Duncan, Garnett and Draymond? I can't get there.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Yeah that's the question for me. 2009 is probably the most dominant basketball ever put on a court but I'm not certain it wasn't just LeBron on a heater in the playoffs and avoiding a Celtics or 2011 Mavs defense vs something he could have done 100 times out of 100, whereas I think Jordan basically repeats 1991 every time.

This is a bit odd to me of an argument cause we know jordan mostly didnt replicate his 91 playoffs scoring in previous or later years and we know his efficiency went lower against top end defense (knicks 92, knicks 93, seattle 96, detroit 88-90)

well if we're just looking at surrounding years, Jordan's overall playoff numbers in 1991 don't look that different. his TS% was basically between 59-60% from 88-91, with the pistons not really being the pistons any more in '91. his PER from his 2nd year on was like 28-30 and then basically 32 for both 1990 and 1991. his WS48 does take a nice leap in '91 but that's arguably just because the bulls were so dominant. he still went 0.270 and 0.284 before the 2nd highest number ever at 0.333 WS48 in 1991. and BPM he was eclipsing 12 regularly and was over 13 in 1990 so the 14.6 in 1991 doesn't look that crazy. it just looks like a typical peak, the best year in a series of years. whereas for lebron, we're talking a guy at 23-24 PER for his first 3 playoffs who shoots up to 37.4. then falls back to 29 and 24 again. his WS48 is a ludicrous 0.399 but it had never been above 0.200 before that and only 0.242 the next season (and then lower in 2011). BPM, same massive outlier. now starting in 2012, lebron just started stringing together unending all-time playoff runs, but 2009 is so far away from everything before that (and far away from everybody else in history).

now to be clear, when i say lebron was on a heater, i wasn't really trying to take that into account when i said the 100 out of 100 thing. lebron shot very well. that happened. it's part of what makes it his peak level of play. i think if he faces, chicago/atlanta/orlando 100 times, he basically does the same thing over and over. my 100 out of 100 comment is more that i don't know if lebron got a different set of opponents, which i think wondering how someone would do in other circumstances is fair to consider if we're evaluating someone's actual peak play and not just who they got to face. and from that perspective, i largely think of lebron's career as pre-2012 (up to the 2011 finals) and then everything after.

early career lebron was not as comfortable with his jump shot. and arguably for good reason, because he wasn't that great at shooting. he shot 35% in the 2007 finals. he shot 35% or so in the 2008 series against the celtics and had a 2-18 game with 10 turnovers. he collapsed against the 2011 mavs defense that forced him (to an extreme degree) to be a jumpshooter. i don't think that person necessarily disappeared for 6 weeks in the 2009 playoffs. maybe he was so on that if he faced the 2011 mavs, he just breaks them in the first few games and they have to go back to a more traditional defense. but i'm not sure. maybe he just avoided some kryptonite.

whereas i don't think there was an answer for 1991 jordan to anything like that degree. he put up basically the 2nd best playoff numbers ever (to be fair, way way behind 2009 lebron) and i'm not sure any set of opponents is knocking that down much below "all-time playoff run" like say 30 PER/0.300 WS48/11 BPM. even in something like the 1993 knicks series, jordan still put up 32/6/7 with a miniscule 2.3 TO/G. and that's certainly an all-time defense. and in 1990 against the pistons he actually put up 32/7/6 on a respectable TS%.

whereas maybe lebron gets got in the wrong matchup. i also think the fact that cleveland blew a 20 point lead in game 1 against orlando and then was a lebron buzzer-beater from blowing another 20 point lead in game 2 speak to the fact that lebron just wasn't the game managing maestro he would be for most of the rest of his career. i don't think 2013 or 2016 lebron are letting those comebacks happen as easily. and not 1991 jordan.

but like i said, i'm still somewhat on the fence. 2009 lebron is the greatest floor-raising regular season ever followed by basically shattering every playoff stat record you can. like i said, in terms of the actual people he faced, including the #1 defense orlando, it's the most dominant anyone has ever been. but as many other votes in this very thread show, it's not even necessarily considered better than other lebron seasons when people pick his peak.

Okay so if I TLDR

Lebron had the best rs ever. Then Lebron played way better than anyone else ever according to all these stats you use but you're on the fence because Lebron maybe plays worse than his "wow he's so far away from everyone else" level he played at if he meets someone else?

I'm not trying to be mean but like, do you see how lame that sounds? Like come on lol.

[Ambrose]

Lebron James - 2016

So breaking this down there’s different ways to look at peak.

One peak Game in their respective leagues: Tossup between Jordan or LeBron. LeBron is a GOAT level close-out guy, and Jordan's league was straight up worse, but Jordan was every bit the assassin people say he was.

One peak Series in their respective leagues: No clue. All have an argument.

One Peak Season in their respective leagues: Probably LeBron. GOAT floor raiser.

When it comes to current league: It's probably LeBron for all of them. Super durable, super consistent, best floor raiser, most diverse skillset. Then probably Jordan, Jokic, or Shaq.

I think the best point for Lebron is: Which one is it? It's legitimately ridiculous that LeBron has so many years that could be considered his peak.

2009 LeBron was an athletic marvel like nothing I've ever seen before. 2013 LeBron looks like he's playing 2k on the easiest difficulty. 2016 is arguably the sports greatest achievement. I lean 2016.

Michael Jordan – 91

There’s a group of 6 top tier offensive players in my mind.

LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Nikola Jokic
Steph Curry
Steve Nash

There’s two players here who have stretches of elite two way play. LeBron’s one. Jordan’s the other.

Nikola Jokic - 23

I wanted to go Shaq here, but the more I thought about it, the more I came up with more reasons I'd pick Jokic over him. The playmaking gap is so much bigger than any other part of their games and he's so remarkably reliable.

[Top10alltime]

But yea 2016 Lebron is an all-time great non-big defender in the playoffs. Have no problem with that statement.

GOAT level, actually.

GOAT level non-big defender, absolutely.

GOAL level compared to guys like Russell, Duncan, Garnett and Draymond? I can't get there.

I know much more than enough basketball, to know this.

[ReggiesKnicks]

GOAT level, actually.

GOAT level non-big defender, absolutely.

GOAL level compared to guys like Russell, Duncan, Garnett and Draymond? I can't get there.

I know much more than enough basketball, to know this.

I assume everyone participating in this project has spent an umpteenth amount of time analyzing, watching, and consuming basketball.

In no way was I attempting to undermine you; rather, I was providing clarity as I wasn't clear in my original post.

[parapooper]

1. '09 LeBron James (2010, 2012, 2013, 2016)

2. '91 Michael Jordan (1989, 1990)

In 2009, LeBron produced, for my money, the most impressive individual season in the history of the sport. It's hard for me to imagine a more valuable season across both sides of the ball through the regular season and postseason. I do not think it was the best version of him as a player - that would probably be 2016, so it really depends on how I want to approach the question.

Yeah that's the question for me. 2009 is probably the most dominant basketball ever put on a court but I'm not certain it wasn't just LeBron on a heater in the playoffs and avoiding a Celtics or 2011 Mavs defense vs something he could have done 100 times out of 100, whereas I think Jordan basically repeats 1991 every time.

Just want to add to this. Here's how 2009 LeBron did in the playoffs in various metrics with his 2nd best showing in parathesis

BBRef BPM: 17.5 (12.7 in 2018)
Backpicks BPM: 12 (9.5 in 2016)
RAPTOR: 16.1 (13.1 in 2021)

And here's 1991 Jordan

BBRef BPM: 14.6 (13.7 in 1990)
Backpicks BPM 12.1 (9.4 in 1990)
RAPTOR 13.9 (12.1 in 1990)

Thing to note is that the difference between 1991 and his 2nd best season is smaller than the difference between 2009 and LeBron's 2nd best season. The fact that Jordan's 2nd best post-season outing was only a year prior means that you could interpret 1991 as MJ simply building on top of his fantastic 1990 campaign.

Overall if you simulated the 1991+2009 post-seasons 100 times, I think both do worse than they did in reality but LeBron drops off somewhat more than Jordan did.

If we take 2009-18 as Lebron's prime and 1989-98 as Jordan's then Lebron had 2 playoffs when he was healthy and didn't have to play around two high-usage co-stars who needed the ball to be effective (2009 + 2018) - while Jordan had 8 such seasons.
In 2009 Lebron had by far the best per-minutes stats for a significant playoff run and in 2018 at the ripe age of 33 he had the highest playoff VORP of all time and the best per-minutes stats for a significant playoff run in ones 30s
So Lebron pretty much had a 100% success rate at putting up the best playoff stats ever when circumstances were favorable
But yes, if you re-rolled it Lebron's rate of achieving that would go down from 100% and MJ's would go up from 0%

[emn_010]

69 Russell—
Look. Idk if he would be good today. There’s someone I know who keeps calling him Bagless Bam but I’m just tryna rate who was making it work and I been convinced Russ was like that over the last couple weeks. And I think if someone averaging 25 a night did what he did before he stopped, everyone here is putting him somewhere 1, 2, or 3.
You’re the coach. You’re on a team that isn’t that good. You got Jerry West and Wilt. And you got the Knicks who end up winning 2 chips right after you leave. Let’s be real now. If Lebron beats that. If MJ beats that. If Hakeem beats that. If Duncan beats that. We’re calling them the GOAT.
If they can be the GOAT for winning that. Then when Russell does that shi let’s give him proper respect.
—16 Lebron—
I know this isn’t the stat peak but this gets as close as it gets to Russell ****. Best RS team ever. Best team ever maybe if they get you. Your best teammate is Kyrie Irving who we all know isn’t like that by now. 3-1 down. You lead every stat to complete the first 3-1 comeback to beat the team about to be best ever. Steph Curry could have been in GOAT talks if Bron didn’t do Bron things. But Lebron got in the way.
I know most people pick another year but that’s GOAT shi right there. Great thing about Bron though is you can pick alot though. For all the stats I say 09 Lebron 2nd best year.
—94 Hakeem—
This ones one of those I had no one and won but I’m going all out to defend my man Hakeem here. Big thanks to all of you watching games:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2415142
I always liked Hakeem’s game but it was just a vibe if I’m real with it. Wouldn’t be tryn to push this without ppl here supplying me all this ammo on and off this site.
First wow he’s great on defense

Spoiler:

Boston
Mchale - 16
Walton - 11
Parish - 7
Bird - 6
Houston overall
Hakeem - 21
Sampson - 9
Houston pre-ejection
Hakeem - 15
Sampson - 9
Overall
Hakeem - 21
Mchale - 16
Walton - 11
Sampson - 9
Parish - 7
Bird - 6

Protecting the rim way more than anyone on this crazy defense

Spoiler:

Here’s what the ‘85—‘87 Lakers did in the playoffs:
1985 Lakers vs.Suns: +18.7 NRtg, 124.6 ORtg
1985 Lakers vs. Blazers: +10.2 NRtg, 117.9 ORtg
1985 Lakers vs. Nuggets: 10.8 NRtg, 117.4 ORtg
1985 Lakers vs. Celtics: +2.5 NRtg, 112.3 ORtg
1986 Lakers vs. Spurs: +31.4 NRtg, 122.7 ORtg
1986 Lakers vs. Mavs: +5.1 NRtg, 119.7 ORtg
1986 Lakers vs. Rockets: -3.6 NRtg, 107.4 ORtg
1987 Lakers vs. Nuggets: +25.2 NRtg, 125.1 ORtg
1987 Lakers vs. Warriors: +10.5 NRtg, 121.7 ORtg
1987 Lakers vs. Sonics: +11.4 NRtg, 117.2 ORtg
1987 Lakers vs. Celtics: +4.3 NRtg, 118.4 ORtg
NOBODY could stop that Lakers offense—the 1985 Celtics slowed them a little, but the Rockets did something pretty extraordinary in 1986 that really doesn’t get celebrated enough. 1990 Jordan was of course amazing, and played great in the playoffs (though the 1990 Pistons aren’t in the same tier as this Lakers team—1990 pistons had some of the best health ever and were still a tier below that Lakers’ juggernaut), but 82 games, 39 mpg of a player basically at his peak producing that SRS (and then playinand seems to be swept away while what 1986 Hakeem did doesn’t seem to get the fanfare it should.

Hakeem also sneaky underrated playmaker with really good scoring:

Spoiler:

Creations:
Hakeem 1986-1990: ~6
Bird 1984-1988: ~6
Jordan 1987-1993: ~10
Magic 1987-1991: ~16

Put those 2 together and you got a sophmore carrying a mid or weak team to championship level play vs historic opps as a sophmore

Spoiler:

Round 1: Chicago Bulls (-3.1), won 3-0, by +13.7 points per game (+10.6 SRS eq)
Round 2: Atlanta Hawks (+3.7), won 4-1, by +9.6 points per game (+13.3 SRS eq)
Round 3: Milwaukee Bucks (+6.7), won 4-0, by +15.0 points per game (+21.7 SRS eq)
Round 4: Houston Rockets (+7.4), won 4-2, by +6.2 points per game (+13.6 SRS eq)

Now pair this with his O going saiyan under rudy and you get some crazy overall impact. Rockets from 2-10 to 55 and i won’t say its all hakeem but it’s mostly him scoring like 5 more ppg more efficiently. 94 Hakeem is basically is 93 hakeem with a full playoff run and championship so i use him.
But the important thing is he’s improving his team as much as any 80s/90s guy in the rs, he’s rising more in the pos, and he’s doing it despite being in a way worse situation and not getting used properly until he’s 30. So I think as prob the best peak of his era he can be top 3

[Paulluxx9000]

The 69' Bill Russell has got to stop. He was not better than any form of Russell, even 67/68 have better claims as his peak. He was still an amazing player but extremely limited offensively and their playoff offense was slightly more of the reason they won. And obviously Russell was a massive portion of that, as a passer and facilitating the fast break. And if you watch 69 Russell tape you see that he's still good but there's no way you think he's better than any other year of Russell.

Coaching a team doesn't make you a better player, its more impressive that his play was that good but, Lenny Wilkens isn't a top 10 point guard.

[homecourtloss]

Lebron James - 2016

So breaking this down there’s different ways to look at peak.

One peak Game in their respective leagues: Tossup between Jordan or LeBron. LeBron is a GOAT level close-out guy, and Jordan's league was straight up worse, but Jordan was every bit the assassin people say he was.

One peak Series in their respective leagues: No clue. All have an argument.

One Peak Season in their respective leagues: Probably LeBron. GOAT floor raiser.

When it comes to current league: It's probably LeBron for all of them. Super durable, super consistent, best floor raiser, most diverse skillset. Then probably Jordan, Jokic, or Shaq.

I think the best point for Lebron is: Which one is it? It's legitimately ridiculous that LeBron has so many years that could be considered his peak.

2009 LeBron was an athletic marvel like nothing I've ever seen before. 2013 LeBron looks like he's playing 2k on the easiest difficulty. 2016 is arguably the sports greatest achievement. I lean 2016.

Michael Jordan – 91

There’s a group of 6 top tier offensive players in my mind.

LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Nikola Jokic
Steph Curry
Steve Nash

There’s two players here who have stretches of elite two way play. LeBron’s one. Jordan’s the other.

Nikola Jokic - 23

I wanted to go Shaq here, but the more I thought about it, the more I came up with more reasons I'd pick Jokic over him. The playmaking gap is so much bigger than any other part of their games and he's so remarkably reliable.

[quote="Ambrose"]Lebron James - 2016

So breaking this down there’s different ways to look at peak.

One peak Game in their respective leagues: Tossup between Jordan or LeBron. LeBron is a GOAT level close-out guy, and Jordan's league was straight up worse, but Jordan was every bit the assassin people say he was.

One peak Series in their respective leagues: No clue. All have an argument.

One Peak Season in their respective leagues: Probably LeBron. GOAT floor raiser.

When it comes to current league: It's probably LeBron for all of them. Super durable, super consistent, best floor raiser, most diverse skillset. Then probably Jordan, Jokic, or Shaq.

I think the best point for Lebron is: Which one is it? It's legitimately ridiculous that LeBron has so many years that could be considered his peak.

2009 LeBron was an athletic marvel like nothing I've ever seen before. 2013 LeBron looks like he's playing 2k on the easiest difficulty. 2016 is arguably the sports greatest achievement. I lean 2016.

Michael Jordan – 91

There’s a group of 6 top tier offensive players in my mind.

LeBron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Nikola Jokic
Steph Curry
Steve Nash

There’s two players here who have stretches of elite two way play. LeBron’s one. Jordan’s the other.

Nikola Jokic - 23

I wanted to go Shaq here, but the more I thought about it, the more I came up with more reasons I'd pick Jokic over him. The playmaking gap is so much bigger than any other part of their games and he's so [\quote]

while it's obvious all the things that Jokić brings on the offensive end as far as efficient scoring, playmaking, offensive rebounding is concerned, his overall offensive performances in the playoffs as far as creating ATG offense hasn't been as impressive as the performances of some of the other all-time great offensive engines such as James, Nash, Magic, Jordan.

vs. SAS, -1.1 rORtg while on court, -2.3 without Murray
vs. POR, +3.1, -8.0
vs. UTA, +11.1, -21.2
vs. LAC, +5.1, +12.2
vs. LAL, +3.7, -15.8
vs. POR, +6.3, +6.3
vs. PHO, -7.2, -7.2
vs. GSW, +3.4, +3.4
vs. MIN, +7.8, +18.5
vs. PHO, +11.5, +2.0
vs. LAL, +11.4, +7.6
vs. MIA, -1.2, -19.5
vs. LAL, +1.3, -2.6
vs. MIN, +2.4, -4.6
vs. LAC, +9.5, -26.2
vs. OKC, -2.3, -19.6

Even the peak 2023 run seems a little bit pedestrian, +7.3, compared to others' peaks especially considering how he has really not faired that well creating all-time great offense without Murray on court.

[Top10alltime]

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