RealGM Top 100 All-Time List

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm surprised to see Wilt fall to the 4th spot. But at the same time, I am pleased to see that Bill Russell is getting the love that he deserves.

[NikeAir]

I like to participate too

[noido]

im in if i still can

[XTC]

I'd also like to participate if I can.

[Baller 24]

Sure, I'm cutting it off at 35.

[semi-sentient]

Man... Magic at #5?

That seems rather low for the best PG to ever play the game. Centers are slightly overrated in the rankings. I'm not saying that some of them don't deserve those rankings, but damn. Personally I'd weigh how well they dominated their position compared to their peers in addition to achievements, in which case I believe that the best at each position (ever) deserves to be rated higher. Oh well. I can see the justification for having those 3 guys over Magic because it's debatable who the best center was, but I'd still have Magic in the top 3 over Russel and Wilt.

Bleh.

[Traveldude50]

if any spots left ill participate

[kooldude]

Man... Magic at #5?

That seems rather low for the best PG to ever play the game. Centers are slightly overrated in the rankings. I'm not saying that some of them don't deserve those rankings, but damn. Personally I'd weigh how well they dominated their position compared to their peers in addition to achievements, in which case I believe that the best at each position (ever) deserves to be rated higher. Oh well. I can see the justification for having those 3 guys over Magic because it's debatable who the best center was, but I'd still have Magic in the top 3 over Russel and Wilt.

Bleh.

a great center has more impact in the game than a great X

[tclg]

I'd like to thank all of you for giving me something really interesting to read during the offseason. I have really enjoyed this project so far.

[prolificpasser]

What a great list so far. it looks to be on target so far.

[writerman]

but I knew it would turn into just another round of kissing Jordan's ass.

But seeing that the people voting think there were two other players better than Chamberlain as well just solidifies my conviction that I did the right thing by avoiding the absurd charade.

Put Wilt one-on-one with the three who people here rank as better, and those three get destroyed. Not just beaten--destroyed.

The man knew it in his own time: "Nobody loves Goliath." He knew he'd never get the respect he deserved.

It's also interesting and curious to see how little respect Oscar Robertson gets--accounted by his peers as the best "little man" in the game by his peers. Guess he accomplished all he accomplished with mirrors...

The problem with this vote is that it is (though through no fault of the panel) dominated by posters under thirty, at the oldest under forty. No matter how smart or perceptive they are (again, I'll cite tsherkin) they never saw the Wests, the Chamberlains, the Robertson, the Fraziers, the Havliceks actually play. There's a real difference between seeing players on the court than seeing them in old clips. That creates an insurmountable bias in the voting, and makes any such list essentially worthless.

Not disrespecting you guys--most of you are pretty savvy--just stating a fact.

[JordansBulls]

but I knew it would turn into just another round of kissing Jordan's ass.

But seeing that the people voting think there were two other players better than Chamberlain as well just solidifies my conviction that I did the right thing by avoiding the absurd charade.

Put Wilt one-on-one with the three who people here rank as better, and those three get destroyed. Not just beaten--destroyed.

The man knew it in his own time: "Nobody loves Goliath." He knew he'd never get the respect he deserved.

It's also interesting and curious to see how little respect Oscar Robertson gets--accounted by his peers as the best "little man" in the game by his peers. Guess he accomplished all he accomplished with mirrors...

The problem with this vote is that it is (though through no fault of the panel) dominated by posters under thirty, at the oldest under forty. No matter how smart or perceptive they are (again, I'll cite tsherkin) they never saw the Wests, the Chamberlains, the Robertson, the Fraziers, the Havliceks actually play. There's a real difference between seeing players on the court than seeing them in old clips. That creates an insurmountable bias in the voting, and makes any such list essentially worthless.

Not disrespecting you guys--most of you are pretty savvy--just stating a fact.

Wilt averaged 11.7 ppg in the finals and had a guy who averaged nearly 40 ppg and still lost the series with HC Advantage and despite being heavily favored.

Also in 1980 Bill Russell was considered the GOAT and that was when Wilt and Russell had already retired and while Kareem was still playing and right when Magic and Bird joined and before MJ was even in college. So it seems now that all of a sudden Wilt's legacy gets greater when even 7 years after he retired he wasn't even considered the best to play the game.

[writerman]

for defending Wilt and maintaining he was the best ever. Yet I never see anyone do that to a guy like JordansBulls, who has his nose so far up Jordan's anus he can't see anything but buttcheeks.

Tell me, folks..what's the difference? I'm willing to bet he hasn't seen a third of the NBA games or plasyers in person that I've seen. Also, I've been a coach and a ref...what are his credentials? Yet I never see anyone attack HIS credibility, or that of any of the other Jordan worshippers on this board.

That's one of the big things I'm referring to when I talk about the blatant generational bias in favor of modern players in these forums.

BTW...haven't looked carefully at the current list, but a couple of guys who likely not even be considered for the list, but IMO probably should be...David Thompson and Gus Johnson.

[penbeast0]

Writerman, we voted Wilt number one last time if I remember; this time there seemed to be more a focus on winning championships and thus Russell (and MJ, and Kareem) slipped ahead of Wilt. If he slips to 5, then we have a problem but those four are all reasonable choices.

As for Honeycombs and the Skywalker, if they don't make it, it will be for their relatively short peaks not because no one has heard of them. For that matter, the Jordanites love Thompson since Jordan said he consciously modeled his game after Thompson's when he was growing up.

[JordansBulls]

for defending Wilt and maintaining he was the best ever. Yet I never see anyone do that to a guy like JordansBulls, who has his nose so far up Jordan's anus he can't see anything but buttcheeks.

Tell me, folks..what's the difference? I'm willing to bet he hasn't seen a third of the NBA games or plasyers in person that I've seen. Also, I've been a coach and a ref...what are his credentials? Yet I never see anyone attack HIS credibility, or that of any of the other Jordan worshippers on this board.

That's one of the big things I'm referring to when I talk about the blatant generational bias in favor of modern players in these forums.

Who is being bias here? You are the one who said Walt Frazier was better than Magic Johnson and then you say a guy like Nate Thurmond was better than Hakeem. So what the hell are you talking about someone being biased?

You come up with stuff on how Wilt was soo good and great, but this is the same guy who ended up having someone else on the team average nearly 40+ ppg in the finals while Wilt himself didn't even average 12 ppg and then he had the nerve to literally "cop out" as Bill Russell said with 6 minutes left in game 7 of the NBA Finals.

Now tell me, if a player in the league in the 90's and now did that they would never here the end of it and it would totally ruin their legacy. You just better be glad that many folks on here don't know about that incident.

[kooldude]

The problem with this vote is that it is (though through no fault of the panel) dominated by posters under thirty, at the oldest under forty. No matter how smart or perceptive they are (again, I'll cite tsherkin) they never saw the Wests, the Chamberlains, the Robertson, the Fraziers, the Havliceks actually play. There's a real difference between seeing players on the court than seeing them in old clips. That creates an insurmountable bias in the voting, and makes any such list essentially worthless.

Not disrespecting you guys--most of you are pretty savvy--just stating a fact.

ok, enlighten us. How many times did you actually see Wilt on the court? Oscar, West, Russell? Be specific.

Regardless, using your personal opinion, to a large extent is a bias in itself. We have supposedly credible people that think Camby is a better defender than Duncan in an age where footage of each player is not only available but with great ease. How many times did you see some of the ancient players on TV or in person? Again, be specific.

A person can see every single person and still have preferences to which player is better/greater. Did you think you're the exception? Russell was voted the GOAT in 1980 by people in your age group or close to it; are they biased too and their voting worthless?

And don't use JordansBulls as a representation of realgm because no one takes him seriously anyways. He is as much biased in worshiping MJ/hating on Kobe as you are in worshiping Wilt/hating on MJ. Most of the mods here are pretty objective in their analysis.

You repeat the same "I saw them play, you didn't" cop-out as much as JordanBulls reposts his own threads.

[writerman]

Saw Oscar Robertson and Jerry Lucas maybe 8-10 times, maybe as many as a dozen, when dad would make business trips to Cincinnati. Saw Nate Thurmond twice in college (live close to Bowling Green, where he went to school) and maybe once or twice in the pros. Wilt I think I saw maybe 3-5 times, all at Cincinnati, and IMO none of what his admirers have said about him are exaggerated. West and Baylor once, Russell I think twice. Saw Jerry Lucas and John Havlicek once in college at Ohio State, and lots of times on TV...Havlicek and Frazier maybe twice as pros...hard to remember where for sure in each of these cases, or the exact number of times. If I remember right I saw Wilt go for well over fifty once against the Royals and block maybe a dozen shots or more. Saw Oscar hit 30 about every time I saw him play. Lucas was a rebounding machine, even against the real bigs (he was 6'8", though he'd measure bigger in shoes in today's NBA.) Had an uncanny knack for knowing exactly how the ball would come of the board or iron, and being in the exact spot to coral it in. Rodman's style without Rodman's stupidity, and had a genuine offensive game besides--including three-point range, even though they didn't have the trey back then, of course.

Saw Moses Malone when he was in HS when I was in the army (1966-68) and stationed at Fort Lee near Petersburg, Virginia. Also Louie Dampier, star guard for the old ABA Kentucky Colonels. I have his autograph somewhere

Saw a lot of NBA old timers many times on live TV. It was a Saturday regular thing for quite a while on one of the Toledo, Ohio stations back then.

Just wondering..am I right in thinking Ohio is the only state to ever have two teams play for the NCAA title? (Ohio State and Cincinnati, 1961, 1962) Those were banner years for the game in Ohio--Lucas, Havlicek, Wayne Embry, Nate Thurmond, Gus Johnson, Howie Komives all playing college ball in the state around the same time period...also a reserve guard named Bobby Knight on that OSU team with Lucas and Havlicek...Larry Siegfried from that same team played some pro ball too...

[kooldude]

haha omg, you're basing your "objective" criteria on 8-10 times of seeing Oscar, 5 times of Wilt, once of West, and twice of Russell? Man, if I happened to only see Kobe during his 60 and 81pt performances, I would think he's the GOAT then? dear lord.

By the way you arrogantly praised the old-timers, I thought you were a NBA representative or a reporter for sports and have seen them play constantly.

[writerman]

haha omg, you're basing your "objective" criteria on 8-10 times of seeing Oscar, 5 times of Wilt, once of West, and twice of Russell? Man, if I happened to only see Kobe during his 60 and 81pt performances, I would think he's the GOAT then? dear lord.

By the way you arrogantly praised the old-timers, I thought you were a NBA representative or a reporter for sports and have seen them play constantly.

We're talking live performances here--Cincinnati and Detroit are quite a ways from where we lived at the time, but I imagine for 5-6 years, I saw 5-6 pro games a year live. Even at what tickets cost then--much less than now (you could buy a top of the lline Cadillac then for under $4,000) that's a lot of games to attend driving that far.

In addition, I missed very few games on TV, either pro or college. Seeing these guys play in person then on the tube gives you a pretty accurate perspective about them.

I guess we didn't have the kind of money or time (my dad had a job--don't know about you...independently wealthy, maybe?) to drive 100+ miles 25-30 times a year like you evidently do.

And, I'll point out the obvious--I saw them live more than YOU ever did...

[JordansBulls]

And don't use JordansBulls as a representation of realgm because no one takes him seriously anyways. He is as much biased in worshiping MJ/hating on Kobe as you are in worshiping Wilt/hating on MJ. Most of the mods here are pretty objective in their analysis.

Actually I am not. I base my analysis on actual results and not on "what if" scenarios when judging players. If someone is being ranked unjustily higher than they should be without a legit case then you have to prove why they shouldn't be ranked that high.