Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast"..

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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#81 » by ronnymac2 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:21 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:Trade Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Fisher for Ilgauskas/Wallace/Varejao/Wally/Williams. Any takers, Laker fans? Thought not.


You can't really do that though. The Cavs are built around LBJ and the Lakers are built around Kobe, so the play to the strengths and weaknesses of their star players. You switch them and I think both teams do worse (marginally worse, but worse), though the Lakers may stay the same because although the makeup would change, LBJ is better than Kobe imo (not insanely better, but more effective imo), so that could counter the team make-up issue.


For the thread....the Lakers cast is clearly more talented. The Cavs supporting cast around LBJ is imo better suited to do some things (rebound and defend and play physical), and they really play very well together on defense. That doesn't make up for the disparity in talent though, because it's not like the Lakers are mismatched with each other or have chemistry issues. The Lakers play together pretty well. So Kobe clearly has the better supporting cast (not by a lot, but it should be pretty clear).
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#82 » by Dat Pass » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:24 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:Trade Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Fisher for Ilgauskas/Wallace/Varejao/Wally/Williams. Any takers, Laker fans? Thought not.


This means nothing... First off, you have to factor in age and potential, which means nothing to an actual players performance DURING a season. Perfect example is Bynum and Z, they put up almsot identical stats, but obviously because one is 14yrs or so younger than the other.. You would be dumb to trade Bynum. But PRODUCTION-wise, they have been very similar this season.

And besides, Bynum has only played half the season.

And the original question was "Without Bynum, do you think Kobe and LeBron's supporting casts are similar?" So to show it more accurately, it would be Farmar/Fisher/Ariza/Odom/Gasol and then Ilguaskas/Varejao/West/Wally/Mo Williams...
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#83 » by Lakers05 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:30 pm

Well, even taking into account age, Big Ben and Big Z are 34, whereas Gasol and Odom are 28 and 29, so before the season started, you'd still have to overwhelmingly pick the Lakers cast. Just because they've performed better than expected(which must have to do with the factors above), doesn't mean that their talent has changed.

I mean, I'm not just suddenly going to say Mo Williams is better than Odom, just because his "supporting cast" is good enough to where the shots he makes are now while his team is tied or 2-4 points ahead(which has more emphasis because his team ends up winning), instead of 8-10 points behind.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#84 » by Jordan23Forever » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:31 pm

No, my friend, it means EVERYTHING. Even just for this season, would you make that trade? Exactly. But feel free to keep obfuscating.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#85 » by Bgil » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:31 pm

TheOUTLAW wrote:Wally has a completely different roll with the Cavs than he does with Seattle. Heck, he really plays most of his minutes without LeBron on the floor.



That's kinda my point. Wally stopped playing well the minute he got to Cleveland. There was no injury or anything else that happened between Cleveland and Seattle but most people here don't want to admit that the Cavs (and by extention Lebron) isn't making him better but much worse. Wally is a quality player and has proven so everywhere he's gone EXCEPT Cleveland.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#86 » by Bgil » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:34 pm

E min differnces a that the Lakrs talent is mostly bigs and the Cavs talent is mostly smalls. The Lakers alsodo a much better job of hiding their weaknesses. For instance, the triangle makes the lack of a true PG a very small issue.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#87 » by sp6r=underrated » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:35 pm

Ball Boy wrote:This means nothing... First off, you have to factor in age and potential, which means nothing to an actual players performance DURING a season. Perfect example is Bynum and Z, they put up almsot identical stats, but obviously because one is 14yrs or so younger than the other.. You would be dumb to trade Bynum. But PRODUCTION-wise, they have been very similar this season.

And besides, Bynum has only played half the season.

And the original question was "Without Bynum, do you think Kobe and LeBron's supporting casts are similar?" So to show it more accurately, it would be Farmar/Fisher/Ariza/Odom/Gasol and then Ilguaskas/Varejao/West/Wally/Mo Williams...


No Bynum has only missed 9 more games than the Big Z. You can't ignore him in this comparison The Cavs supporting cast has been hit by just as many injuries as LA's.

Repost from Page 2

Based on minutes per game, minus Kobe and Lebron, here are the Cavs and Lakers 4 best players,

Group A: Gasol, Bynum, Odom, Fisher (Games missed due to injury: 33)
Group B: Big Z, Mo Williams, West, AV (Games missed due to injury: 34)

Even without adding in the coaches to the trade, every GM in the league and every poster who does not have an agenda, would take group A in a second. Gasol was good enough to lead a team to 50 wins and they playoffs as the man on his team. Lamar Odom, was good enough to be the arguable best or at worst second best player on a playoff team.

Group A coached by Jackson makes the playoffs. Group B coached by Mike Brown is headed to the lottery.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#88 » by Dat Pass » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:38 pm

Jordan23Forever wrote:No, my friend, it means EVERYTHING. Even just for this season, would you make that trade? Exactly. But feel free to keep obfuscating.


Just for this season...

Farmar/Vujacic/Fisher/Ariza/Odom/Gasol for
Mo Williams/Gibson/West/Wally/Joe Smith/Ilguaskas/Varejao

Eh.. I dont know, I probably wouldnt. But stop and really think about those players.

I dont think the difference is nearly as great as people are making it out to be.

Mo/Gibson/West are infinitly better than Farmar/Vujacic/Fisher

Wally/Joe Smith/Varejao are a slight downgrade of Ariza/Odom/Powell

And then the main one that everyone is saying.. Gasol v. Ilgauskas.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#89 » by Lakers05 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:45 pm

Yes, it is. Gasol is very very close to Kobe(even without looking at the stats, you can tell this just by watching and "generalizing" how many games each has been the best player statistically), so you could almost replace Gasol with Kobe and say, well the difference isn't that large. Now how ridiculous would that sound?
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#90 » by b-ball forever » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:40 pm

Ball Boy wrote:
b-ball forever wrote:Gasol >> Mo Williams, Bynum = Big Z, Odom >>>> Delonte West. The other guys are pretty much equal. Kobe's supporting cast is easily better.


Why are you comparing Odom to West? Why not compare Odom to Varejao? Their numbers are very similar, and although I give the advantage to Odom, its not by a big margin. And Bynum will miss half the season... So take that, and factor in like you said, "everyone else is pretty much equal", then how do you come to the conclusion that Kobe's cast is "easily" better? Especially factoring in the Cavs play the best defense in the league...

I'm comparing Odom to West cuz Delonte is a slightly better basketball player then Varejao is, altho both are nothing more then mediocre players. Like Varejao, West is far from being anything special either, but at least he can handle the rock while being a good spot up shooter on top of being a solid perimeter defender, so even he's a bit more skilled then Varejao.

You're blatantly kidding yourself if u actually believe that Varejao is ANYWHERE NEAR as good a basketball player as Odom.
Varejao is only a good rebounder, and solid post defender that can only score garbage points off of putbacks and his man leaving him to double up on LBJ.... Odom is just as good as Varejao at rebouding/defense (except he has the advantage of being a more versatile defender), all the while being lightyears ahead of Varejao on offense, both at scoring and as a playmaker.

Odom is an extremelly gifted ballhandler for a guy his size, Varejao can't handle the rock for squat. Odom can create for teammates, Varejao can't. Odom has good court vision, Varejao doesn't. Odom is very good slasher, Varejao isn't. Odom is a dangerous threat going up the the court in transistion, Varejao isn't. Odom can take his man off the dribble, Varejao can't. Odom is a very usefull post-up option on iso plays down low when he gets the mismatch, Varejao isn't. Odom is longer then Varejao. Odom is very quick/agile for his size, Varejao is slow and unathletic.
The only thing Varejao can do that Odom can't is be good at flopping.

Odom was a 17/10/4 guy when used as a primary option on the Heat, and is a career 15/9/4.3/1/1 guy. The only reason he hasn't been scoring or setting up teammates as much as usual this year is cuz he hasn't been relied upon to do so for most the season.
Put Odom on a lower caliber team that uses him properly and he easily goes back to the old 16/9/4, put Varejao on a lower caliber team and production doesn't budge (except his offensive efficiency goes WAY down). Same thing with West, I mean Delonte was nothing more then a 7/3 guy on the frickin Sonics prior to joining the Cavs.

Seriously, it's laughable the way so many Laker fans blatantly undervalue Odom like he's some sorta scrub, hopefully he'll sign with a new team so his team's fanbase can appreciate his talent instead of bashing him to make their superhero look better.

The Lakers cast is easily better cuz Gasol is much better then Mo Will (Gasol was able lead the Griz to playoffs with a bad suporting cast 3 times while putting up 19/9/3/1.8, Mo Williams was a 17/6.4/3.5/1.2 guy on Bucks team that didn't go anywhere), Bynum is as good (or prolly better nowdays) as Ilgauskas, and Odom is a hell lot better then any other guy on the Cavs' roster.
No GM in their right mind would ever take the LBJ' cast over Kobe's.

The only argument that can be made for Kobe's cast is if ya take Bynum out, but it's not like LBJ's cast has been healthy either. Big Z has been battered up most the year and clearly isn't at 100% phsically, same goes for Delonte West. Ben Wallace and Wally are out, and Pavlovic has had injuries too... Meantime Bynum played most the season so far, and will prolly be back in time for the playoffs anyways.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#91 » by Dat Pass » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:46 pm

b-ball forever wrote:The only argument that can be made for Kobe's cast is if ya take Bynum out


Which is my entire argument in the first place.. Because Bynum hasnt played now for 2 entire months. And still people continue to blabber on about how much better Kobe's cast was.. So my entire argument is "if ya take Bynum out"..

b-ball forever wrote:Meantime Bynum played most the season so far


:lol: By the time the playoffs role around.. Bynum will miss about 48% of the season.

"Most" and "Half" are quite different.. But I guess thats just my opinion.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#92 » by b-ball forever » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:53 pm

And your argument is stupid

b-ball forever wrote:The only argument that can be made for Kobe's cast is if ya take Bynum out, but it's not like LBJ's cast has been healthy either. Big Z has been battered up most the year and clearly isn't at 100% phsically, same goes for Delonte West. Ben Wallace and Wally are out, and Pavlovic has had injuries too... Meantime Bynum played most the season so far, and will prolly be back in time for the playoffs anyways
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#93 » by TheOUTLAW » Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:58 pm

I don't think people are taking into consideration that Delonte was not getting any playing time in Seattle and Smith wasn't getting any playing either (and that was on a bad team). These guys are part of the main rotation in Cleveland. I also love how people are claiming that it is LeBron who is at fault for Wally's shooting woe's (although he's actually played pretty well the last half of the season) while they aren't really saying anything about the fact that Odom is playing worse with the Lakers than he did with Miami.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#94 » by Dat Pass » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:11 pm

TheOUTLAW wrote:I also love how people are claiming that it is LeBron who is at fault for Wally's shooting woe's (although he's actually played pretty well the last half of the season) while they aren't really saying anything about the fact that Odom is playing worse with the Lakers than he did with Miami.


How is Odom playing worse now than when he was with Miami?

03-04 in Miami - 37.5mpg - 17.1ppg, 9.7rpg, 4.1apg (43% fg, 30% 3fg)

04-09 in LA - 36.6mpg - 14.8ppg, 10.1rpg, 3.9apg (48% fg, 31% 3fg)

In a reduced role, his numbers are basically the same, but on a much higher fg%.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#95 » by WadeKnicks2010 » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:26 pm

The problem with threads like this is that people tend to assume the player with the worst cast is the better player.. Its a stupid correlation. Is Kobe worse than Kevin Durant because Kobe has a better supporting cast than him right now?
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#96 » by semi-sentient » Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:38 pm

TheOUTLAW wrote:I also love how people are claiming that it is LeBron who is at fault for Wally's shooting woe's (although he's actually played pretty well the last half of the season) while they aren't really saying anything about the fact that Odom is playing worse with the Lakers than he did with Miami.


Really, you love it? That's awesome, especially when you consider that not a single person in this thread claimed that.

BTW, what exactly makes you think Odom is playing worse? He was playing on a team without a superstar in Miami, and since coming to LA most of his numbers outside of points have improved. His points have decreased for obvious reasons, none of which has anything to do with him becoming worse.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#97 » by loserX » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:50 pm

WadeKnicks2010 wrote:The problem with threads like this is that people tend to assume the player with the worst cast is the better player.. Its a stupid correlation. Is Kobe worse than Kevin Durant because Kobe has a better supporting cast than him right now?


No, because Kobe's team is one of the best in the league while Durant's is one of the worst. Pretty clear that a comparison of Kobe's and LeBron's "supporting casts" is more relevant since both teams are very successful.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#98 » by Jordan23Forever » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:27 am

Ball Boy wrote:Just for this season...

Farmar/Vujacic/Fisher/Ariza/Odom/Gasol for
Mo Williams/Gibson/West/Wally/Joe Smith/Ilguaskas/Varejao

Eh.. I dont know, I probably wouldnt. But stop and really think about those players.

I dont think the difference is nearly as great as people are making it out to be.

Mo/Gibson/West are infinitly better than Farmar/Vujacic/Fisher

Wally/Joe Smith/Varejao are a slight downgrade of Ariza/Odom/Powell

And then the main one that everyone is saying.. Gasol v. Ilgauskas.


Why did you change the players in the trade? I specifically asked:

Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Fisher for Williams/Wally/Varejao/Wallace/Ilgauskas.

And like others have said, NO ONE without an agenda would make that trade, even for one season. No way. I'd love to see any Laker fan make that trade.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#99 » by kooldude » Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:51 am

sp6r=underrated wrote:Group A coached by Jackson makes the playoffs. Group B coached by Mike Brown is headed to the lottery.


I don't see that happening unless you think a Kobe-less Lakers team is better than the current Suns.
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Re: Comparing LeBron and Kobes "cast".. 

Post#100 » by tkb » Sat Mar 28, 2009 1:11 pm

Tim_Hardawayy wrote:Lets put up basic stats without any efficiency numbers, then list off a bunch of players with greater than or less than symbols by them to make a point.

You would think Lakers fans would be happy with having the (potentially) best team in basketball. But no, they still have to trash them just enough that Kobe can be on LeBron's level as well.


Well. Analyzing those players' efficiency numbers before they came to the Lakers to play with Kobe and after will tell a story too. Just about anyone on the Lakers have drastically improved their efficiency and shot career highs next to Kobe.

Take Lamar Odom for instance. He's been a Laker for 5 years now, and surprisingly his 5 best seasons of his entire career in FG% and TS% have been those 5 years.

Pau Gasol never hit 54% FG% in a season before coming to the Lakers. He hasn't been below 57% since. Never went over 60% TS% before coming here, but since he hasn't been below 62%. Coincidences?

Kwame Brown is shooting well this season in Detroit at 55.6% on 2.5 attempts. This is his only season other than with the Lakers he's shot over 50%. With the Lakers he never went below 50% and was at 59.1% on 5.9 attempts one year.

Chris Mihm had his 2 best shooting years of his career the first 2 years playing on the Lakers before getting injured.

Derek Fisher has set career highs in TS% both seasons after coming back from Utah to play on the Lakers.

Smush Parkers 2 highest seasons in FG% and TS% are the two seasons he played on the Lakers.

Brian Cook hasn't hit 38% in FG% over a season since leaving the Lakers, where he only once was below 45%.

Yes, we have efficient cast players, and I give Phil Jackson a lot of credit as a coach, but you also have to give Kobe credit as he's been the only big time constant on the floor next to those guys.

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