All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Meta Thread

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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#801 » by Doctor MJ » Fri May 13, 2016 2:39 am

Dr Spaceman wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
I'm less interesting in examples as effective as Hakeem - because we know Hakeem is special - and more interested in examples that were seriously committed to running the same type of scheme. Regardless of quality:

When was the last great offense to use a big man who volume scored with post up moves?
When was the last great offense that used a true hub & spoke model like Houston as the basis for their scheme?

Obviously we still have guys post up and we still have guys post up and kick it out to a 3, but if it isn't done so often in games that it can truly be claimed to be the team's scheme the way we describe Rudy T's scheme around Hakeem, then what are we debating?


I think the Dallas Mavs under Rick Carlisle were quite clearly built that way.

Not saying this changes anything regarding Ewing, as Dirk is the far superior talent- but it does exist and has succeeded in modern defensive times. You could argue Miami adopted a similar scheme after Bosh went down in 2012 and they moved James to the 4 (I actually started using the term "orbit" to describe that offense and still do to some degree today although it changed in 13 and 14)


Good guy to bring up, but of course, Dirk is a very different player in type.
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#802 » by ElGee » Fri May 13, 2016 4:05 am

Awesome idea -- I played with some of the remaining "free agents" and you can come up with some pretty interesting teams:

Turkish Drug Lords
81 Parish
10 Okur
04 Prince
80 Ray Richardson
97 KJ
07 Hedo
99 Camby
11 Redick

OR

The Spacers
81 Parish
76 Cowens
04 Prince
05 Miller
97 KJ
99 Camby
07 Hedo
92 Hodges

OR

Knicks Redux
89 Ewing
99 Camby
04 Prince
91 Drexler
97 KJ
96 R. Brown
10 Okur
05 Miller

That 85 FGA limit was lower than I thought before going through the exercise. Pretty cool idea and some great drafting. I really love what Doc said about the "shape" of a league like this -- we'd absolutely see some guys do better, some do worse, and most settle into pretty defined roles...roles that could be different than what we're used to seeing. With that said, I see ego/BBIQ as a huge factor in determining synergy, which is then governed by the key skills like passing, shooting, etc. I probably like the Spacers the best of those above groups in general, although I think the last team could be like some supercharged version of the 93 Knicks.

Question: When commenting in the matchup threads, what is fair game? As a drive-by-commentator, I don't want to influence a poster's "coaching," so to speak, by raising certain questions that could influence strategy...
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#803 » by E-Balla » Fri May 13, 2016 4:38 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
E-Balla wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Top BBIQ players adapt with age as they lose their physicality.

So was he supposed to defer to Allan Houston when he was better than him? Even in 99 when Ewing was a 49 TS guy Allan was only a 51.5 TS guy and Ward/LJ were the only guys over league average TS% (and neither can create much of anything consistently - yes Pat couldn't either at that point). The offensive talent he was surrounded with in his career was abysmal.


What I'm saying is that I'd feel better about Ewing if that abysmal offensive talent around him didn't seem to be able to do fine without him. Defer or don't defer, but find away to be valuable.

Of course he WAS certainly valuable on defense all through that time, but I don't see an argument to say his lack of offensive impact came because of his deference.

They did do fine without him but its not like they got any better though. Ewing was 36 years old in 99 and it was the beginning of the end. In 98 when he got hurt the team definitely felt it (they had an 8 SRS in the 26 games he played and a 1 SRS the rest of the way). A broken down Ewing just wasn't a valuable offensive player like that. Some guys aren't no matter what role they're in.

E-Balla wrote:
Howard's teams won with defense and their absolute peak on offense came in '09-10 with Howard shooting 10.2 FGA per game while 3 other guys shot more FGA than him. So no, I doubt see the evidence for it being 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. In one era you had plenty of big man volume scorers, and now it basically doesn't exist.

But hey, that's the debate I figured people would have. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but I do expect anyone seriously trying to use a big man to volume score should have focused first and foremost on explaining to us how they'll plan to deal with the changes that scare the actual NBA form using this approach nowadays.

Well Howard still lead the team in TSA (he averaged 10 FTA a game too) but I get your point. To that all I have to say is that if Dwight Howard did that with his mediocre (at best) back to basket game and his bad (at best) passing ability imagine what someone with the actual ability to post up could do. The reason we've gone away from that style of offense is that no big is good enough to command touches liek that consistently and the ones that are shoot too much (looking at you Boogie). It's a fundamental difference in how people see the sport but when I look at the league today the number 3 offense in the league is San Antonio and they're also the most post happy team in the league. It can work you just need the right hub (Portland made it work too).


Good point on the TSA, but regardless this quite clearly isn't volume scoring.

Your point about "imagine if he could post up", let me make the following analogy:

In olden days doctors do it all themselves.
Nowadays we have much more success with doctors who are limited specialists because of existing knowledge and technology.
Can you imagine if you could combine those two things? Wouldn't be wonderful to have a doctor whose hands went straight from the morgue to the wombs of pregnant woman while having great modern knowledge of disease transmission?

Not saying it's a perfect analogy, but I think people need to consider whether had the success he had despite his limit skillset precisely because the skills he have are the ones that translate best to the current era.

I don't think that analogy is even remotely accurate to this situation. Maybe Dwight had the success he had because he couldnt shoot freethrows too right? Dwight got his success despite not having a good post game not because he didn't have a good post game. He still tried to post up often, fumbled the ball often, and turned it over often. If he had a post game they probably could've scored against Boston in 2010.

E-Balla wrote:
1. I wasn't aware that it was considered normal for alpha scoring big men to have weak rebounding numbers.
2. Fair enough, and really I'm glad you put it like that because I feel like I'm getting more chippy than I want. Ewing's great and could easily have been drafted early here for good reason.
3 & 4. Interesting.

1. It's not really considered normal because bigs usually don't shoot that much but look at Sabonis, KAT, or Dirk's OREB numbers. Pat shot the ball a lot compared to all other alpha Cs before KAT. Also Zo was a weaker rebounder than Pat was.


Could you elaborate on why you say Zo is a worse rebounder than Ewing after I showed rebounding numbers giving Zo an edge?

Not saying those numbers should have clinched the argument, but I figure you have reasoning you could share.

Ewing has 7 seasons with a higher TRB% than Zo's 2nd best (despite not being as good on the offensive boards) and 3 seasons higher than Zo's highest TRB%. He's just statistically better on the boards.

E-Balla wrote:But I wouldn't say we haven't seen it in 20 years. We saw variations of it plenty of times in the last 10 years. None as effective as Hakeem but none lead by players as good as Hakeem either. Personally seeing Dwight able to lead a good offense with PNRs and postups despite his limited game is enough for me. I definitely agree that with plenty of posters it's a sell and I agree not focusing on one player works best.


I'm less interesting in examples as effective as Hakeem - because we know Hakeem is special - and more interested in examples that were seriously committed to running the same type of scheme. Regardless of quality:

When was the last great offense to use a big man who volume scored with post up moves?
When was the last great offense that used a true hub & spoke model like Houston as the basis for their scheme?

Obviously we still have guys post up and we still have guys post up and kick it out to a 3, but if it isn't done so often in games that it can truly be claimed to be the team's scheme the way we describe Rudy T's scheme around Hakeem, then what are we debating?

Well Dirk was already mentioned but Portland the year they had the 2nd best offense would be up there too (LMA was the center of everything that year - Dame took the ball some more the year after and they got worse). Like I said it's not common but we've seen it done twice by Terry Stotts now. And if you want to count it the Spurs offense is definitely post based but it runs too many motion sets for me to really count it here.
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#804 » by GSP » Fri May 13, 2016 9:20 am

I gotta say i like to love all these teams. Really goes to show the quality of the posters we have here. Would have loved to judge but work schedule is starting to get crazy. I look forward to hearing the debates and how these teams matchup. All the best fellas!
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#805 » by Quotatious » Fri May 13, 2016 9:45 am

Just to make it clear, since E-Balla asked (it should be posted in the main thread, not in anybody's matchup thread, so I'll put it here):

Dr Spaceman wrote:
E-Balla wrote:Question for Q: Am I allowed to rebute his post before making my first one or are we only allowed to rebute what they originally post just once and then let the voters at it. I have my post ready but it's completely ignoring his post and I want to know if that's how it's supposed to go.

Quotatious wrote:Not that it matters he's dead meat anyway.


I'm not Q but I always pictured it being more just a conversation. I imagine the judges will ask questions and make comments as well. I made a long post already but it wasn't my final write up so I'm hoping that's how it works

Yes, you guys can discuss until Sunday evening, then the judges will step in on Monday.
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#806 » by Square » Fri May 13, 2016 12:11 pm

Are we GM's judging matchups (other than our own of course)? Or is there a select panel of judges? (In other words, who do I have to bribe?)
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#807 » by Quotatious » Fri May 13, 2016 12:51 pm

Square wrote:Are we GM's judging matchups (other than our own of course)? Or is there a select panel of judges? (In other words, who do I have to bribe?)

Look at the OP on the first page of this thread, there's a panel of 12 judges. :)
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#808 » by Dr Spaceman » Fri May 13, 2016 1:06 pm

Some quick principles about guys I targeted/how I attacked the draft process and envisioned my team:

1. Quickness of mind

One of my main guiding principles was that I didn't want the ball to stick anywhere. Basically I was trying to maximize positive outcome per time of possession. In a league like this, everyone on the team is so dynamic and so skilled that the opportunity cost of not having instantaneous decision-makers was too high for me. The guy that embodies this best was my second pick, Anthony Davis, who legitimately is the best off-ball mover I've ever seen among big men, and is clearly smart enough to either catch & go or keep the ball moving, given that's the way he actually plays in the real NBA. I was shying away from volume scorers who needed lots of on_ball time to do their thing, and Davis was essentially perfect in that he can grab his buckets playing off my guards and his scoring won't interfere with Magic's playmaking (as a matter of fact, I believe it enhances it given how terrifying Davis is near the rim).

The other big scorer on my team is Klay Thompson, and obviously he works by all the same principles. Loves his screens away from the ball and if he doesn't have a route to immediately finish the play he's more than fine with making a smart pass and keeping that thing moving.

All 4 of the guys around Magic are top flight off-ball players for their positions, plus shooters and smart movers who are good at some very specific things and are cool with being part of a hierarchy.

2. Length & athleticism

As this team started to come together, I realized how much of an edge I had in terms of positional size. While Magic is technically playing small forward on my team, he's a perimeter player who,s quick enough to force other teams to put a small guard on him, who he can abuse in the post. All the rest of the guys have elite size, length, or both for their position, in addition to being extremely active and high-motor. This is especially useful on the defensive end, where I've picked guys who are going to throw their limbs around, be disruptive, force turnovers and apply pressure. I've seen Anthony Davis strip point guards on the perimeter, and he's a terror against big men who try to dribble in his space or post him up, able to concede room and still get a hand on the shot without fouling because he's got tree branch arms. I have a team full of elite ball thieves who are also mo-nester athletes on the break, and the constant motion on both ends of the floor is going to tire the crap out of opposing teams. With the ball moving at wicked speeds in the half court, the constant transition attacks, the defensive applied pressure, and just the stress of guarding these freakish athletes, my team is going to be just EXHAUSTING to play against.

My team is young, they are freakish, they are long, they are athletic, and they are relentless. They will come after you and come after you until you break.

3. No place to hide

Although I kind of ran into trouble with this philosophy as I started drafting my bench, I don't regret this decision at all. When people started picking very limited and one-dimensional players, I took advantage of a market inefficiency for guys who had more tools at the expense of higher FGA. I called Klay Thompson a luxury when I picked him, but he was a very high target of mine as the draft went along because I wanted guys who couldn't be taken advantage of. He's the best defending shooting specialist I know of, and you're not going to take him out of his game no matter what you do. He can post up smaller guys if need be, he can attack off the dribble, and there's no perimeter player he can't guard.

I made sure everyone in my starting lineup was a true positive on both ends of the floor, even if that meant playing them out of position (Magic). I knew I could absorb the FGA troubles if I scouted really well in the last 3 round (and I think I did). There's no one on my team where you can hide a poor defender, no one who can't punish opposing teams in isolation or in the post, no non-offensive threats, and no one to attack defensively without totally giving upl your offensive scheme. When I look at other teams, there are a lot of specialists, and while that's not a bad thing it is a vulnerability and I tried my damndest to make sure that wasn't an option against my team.
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#809 » by wojoaderge » Fri May 13, 2016 2:51 pm

OrlandoTill wrote:3 ABA players piqued my interest for my final spots all fit my team but the 2 I saw didn't translate as well as I thought they could and had trouble for me making their arguments.

Who were they?
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#810 » by Quotatious » Fri May 13, 2016 7:00 pm

Not sure if you guys noticed, but we have a pretty big group of judges (they are listed in the OP of this thread). I'm extremely glad I was able to get all those guys to participate. Almost every well-known and respected PC board poster is involved in this project, either as a GM or judge. I'm proud of that. :)

13 is a good number because assuming all of them cast their votes (which I don't think is gonna happen everytime, but let's leave that for a moment), there's no chance of a tie, it'll always be decided one way or another, even if by just one vote.
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#811 » by Square » Fri May 13, 2016 7:03 pm

I'm really enjoying the writeups I've seen so far. (Although if I never have to read the acronym "GOAT" again it will be too soon...)
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#812 » by Quotatious » Fri May 13, 2016 7:16 pm

Square wrote:I'm really enjoying the writeups I've seen so far. (Although if I never have to read the acronym "GOAT" again it will be too soon...)

Yup, especially the back-and-forth between E-Balla and eminence has been great.

I'll echo Doctor MJ's comment - I also really like your writing style. Very impressive for someone who just joined this board two weeks ago. :)
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#813 » by Statlanta » Fri May 13, 2016 10:18 pm

wojoaderge wrote:
OrlandoTill wrote:3 ABA players piqued my interest for my final spots all fit my team but the 2 I saw didn't translate as well as I thought they could and had trouble for me making their arguments.

Who were they?

Julius Erving, Rick Barry, George Gervin
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#814 » by theonlyclutch » Fri May 13, 2016 11:57 pm

OrlandoTill wrote:
wojoaderge wrote:
OrlandoTill wrote:3 ABA players piqued my interest for my final spots all fit my team but the 2 I saw didn't translate as well as I thought they could and had trouble for me making their arguments.

Who were they?

Julius Erving, Rick Barry, George Gervin


Thanks for not taking Erving before me, you had me scared for a while there...
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#815 » by 8on » Sun May 15, 2016 4:54 am

man, I want to do this! any chance this reboots? i bet there will be a lot of interested owners.
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#816 » by lorak » Sun May 15, 2016 8:47 am

Under what rules are matchups are played? 2016 season?
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#817 » by AustinCarr61 » Sun May 15, 2016 9:22 am

lorak wrote:Under what rules are matchups are played? 2016 season?


Yes, as otherwise my team would look very different....
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#818 » by SideshowBob » Sun May 15, 2016 3:00 pm

Should judges be doing write-ups as well or will the convention be to just vote?

Also when must we vote by, assuming all of the GM write-ups will be done by tonight?
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#819 » by Quotatious » Sun May 15, 2016 3:17 pm

SideshowBob wrote:Should judges be doing write-ups as well or will the convention be to just vote?

Also when must we vote by, assuming all of the GM write-ups will be done by tonight?

Votes have to be accompanied by explanations. I mean - let's be serious - if you vote, you certainly have reasons to do so - why don't share those reasons with everybody? :wink:

I'd like the judges to cast their votes on Monday and Tuesday, and then we'll proceed to the second round on Wednesday (that's assuming everybody has their write-ups done by tonight, and not everyone has done it yet - for instance Clyde Frazier hasn't).
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Re: All-Time Fantasy Draft With FGA Limit - Participant List Thread 

Post#820 » by Dr Spaceman » Wed May 18, 2016 1:42 pm

Quotatious wrote:
SideshowBob wrote:Should judges be doing write-ups as well or will the convention be to just vote?

Also when must we vote by, assuming all of the GM write-ups will be done by tonight?

Votes have to be accompanied by explanations. I mean - let's be serious - if you vote, you certainly have reasons to do so - why don't share those reasons with everybody? :wink:

I'd like the judges to cast their votes on Monday and Tuesday, and then we'll proceed to the second round on Wednesday (that's assuming everybody has their write-ups done by tonight, and not everyone has done it yet - for instance Clyde Frazier hasn't).


Hmm, so is voting done?
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