2018-19 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[Timmyyy]

But Kawhi is clearly better than Jordan/Lebron have ever been on defense imo

We are in 2019, you surely mean worse? Right now he's probably closer to the worst defender on the starting lineup (!!!!) than to the best (Marc).

Kawhi at this point has been comfortably the best player in the PO. Great on offense and really good on defense too, but it seems some people want to push him to a level he flat out isn't because this year we have a bit of an underwhelming year where none of the top guys really have some sort of all time great year. Giannis and Harden with the great RS and solid but not great PO. Green and Kawhi with great PO but mediocre RS, Curry inconsistent and Jokic great all around but not really all time great.

That being said I think that this 'Kawhi is some sort of monster on D in the PO's' is largely coming from the desire to see something all time great this year. His scoring is all time great, definitely and the whole package actually too. But his defense in my eyes is not. So no need to exaggerate the good but not great parts of his game to elevate him even higher. No way for example is he better than 2016 PO LeBron on defense this year.

I want to expand a little on that topic and first of all say that I see him as the clearly best playoffs player this year and think that what he did is truly all time great. BUT I don't see it on the level some seem to see it. So the points I will bring up are more about the difference between having a great, great playoff run and having a GOAT level, Top 10 level PO run. Just that you know I don't want to talk his performance down, just give my doubts about why it isn't even greater.

The overall point actually is that the Raptors true greatness is their defense, where Kawhi is an important part of the puzzle but in my opinion not the most important, while their offense, where Kawhi is everything for the Raptors, is not really all that special.

Defense:
The Raptors are a great collection of defensiv talent. No weak spots. Looking at RPM, RAPM numbers 2 guys pretty capable of anchoring a defense together with Siakam and Gasol. In the playoffs in my opinion these 2 guys underlined that with great defensive performances. Additionally Nurse in my opinion showed up big time (was mentioned once or twice but in my opinion hugely underrated). The Raptors in every series went read and react with their defensive schemes and that is clearly on the coach. Monster performance for a rookie head coach on such a big stage.
So you have no weaknesses, guys that anchor your D and a coach that will always give the right direction. Kawhi was a important part of the defense but the key factors were the defensiv talent on the team and the coach and not Kawhi. Defensive On/Off numbers are really low in any direction for anyone on the team, showing that there is not a huge difference in their defense whoever is on the floor (funny enough all the starters have a + defensive on/off and the bench a - defensive on/off).
So I think Leonard is having good defensive playoffs but nothing special with it at all.

Offense:
Raptors have a 109.4 ortg in the PO, 114.1 with Kawhi, 95.1 without him. In the RS it was 113.1, 117.6 with Kawhi, 109.7 without him.
Drop off of the overall ortg doesn't strike me as out of line. I think facing the Sixers and Bucks explains that. The ortg's with Kawhi also look plausible. The drop of the ortg without him from RS to PO looks concerning.
The Raptors played a pretty free flowing style of offense in the RS. Kawhi sometimes disrupted it but overall they played a good team game. In the playoffs that style changed pretty drastically to Kawhi-ball admittedly with great results.
The question that raises for me is, did the Raptors supporting cast just forget how to play basketball and choked in this off minutes or has the Kawhi-style disrupting their rhythm anything to do with it (small sample might also be a problem)? We can't answer that with certainty and I guess it is a combination of both.
So from a team perspective you have two different styles resulting in roughly the same good but not great success. Admittedly the PO style is crazy resilient in the playoff environment and the RS style not, so thats why I think what Kawhi is doing this PO's is so great.
But from an GOAT, all time great perspective it seems what he is doing on offense is not really exclusively additional to the overall offense. You have to give something up to get what Kawhi gives you on O. Quite similar to the Durant situation where he gives you great resilient PO scoring but seems to hold back Curry to a degree.
Conclusion from my side is that Kawhi is the heart and soul of the Raptors offense and does a phenomenal job carrying them. But I think some opportunity costs are attached to it, which is why I don't believe he is on an all time, goat level offensive impact level no matter what his boxscore numbers are suggesting.

Put it both together and you get a great, great offensive performance paired with a good defensive one, resulting in a great playoff run we all will remember for a long time, but short of the GOAT or close to GOAT playoff runs we have seen in the past.

I hope to see some discussion about it since it is hard to quantify what I just wrote and I'm happy to see other opinions on my points.

[ardee]

If the Warriors come back Curry has to get it right?

[Johnny Firpo]

If the Warriors come back Curry has to get it right?

Easily, especially since they are not coming back, if he is not playing very well.

[ardee]

If the Warriors come back Curry has to get it right?

Easily, especially since they are not coming back, if he is not playing very well.

I can't believe I am fervently and passionately supporting GSW from hereon out.

Sent from my SM-G615F using RealGM Forums mobile app

[HeartBreakKid]

When Durant has played would you guys say he was better than Curry these playoffs?

[TheGOATRises007]

When Durant has played would you guys say he was better than Curry these playoffs?

Yes.

Curry was very poor vs the Rockets up until the closing minutes of game 5 and then game 6.

[Dr Spaceman]

When Durant has played would you guys say he was better than Curry these playoffs?

Yes.

Curry was very poor vs the Rockets up until the closing minutes of game 5 and then game 6.

Actually was still really bad for half of G6 too.

[ardee]

When Durant has played would you guys say he was better than Curry these playoffs?

When he played it was hard to argue anyone as better other than maybe Kawhi, but even that is close.

[Jaivl]

If the Warriors come back Curry has to get it right?

No

[Odinn21]

I think it's Giannis, not depending on the outcome of the Finals.

Could've beens;
- Durant's regular season wasn't that strong but he was killing it in the playoffs before going down. Missed nearly half of the GSW games.
- Kawhi is the 2019 Playoffs MVP but it's hard for me to consider someone couldn't care less about regular season.
- Harden had a great regular season and unlike his reputation, I don't think he choked in 2019 playoffs. His team couldn't challenge GSW on 2018 level because they lacked a good defender like Ariza. On an individual level, I'd say he was the best player in GSW-HOU series.

Curry is not in the debate, definitely.

Giannis has a knock on him as the ECF proved he's not the best player. But he had a historic regular season run and he led his team to the ECF.

It's either Giannis or Kawhi at this point, and I'm taking Giannis.

[Dr Spaceman]

If the Warriors come back Curry has to get it right?

No

Yeah I’d be more inclined to give it to Dray.

[Jaivl]

If the Warriors come back Curry has to get it right?

No

Yeah I’d be more inclined to give it to Dray.

No

[Dr Spaceman]

No

Yeah I’d be more inclined to give it to Dray.

No

You’re right, after thinking about it Looney is the most important Warrior.

[Jaivl]

Yeah I’d be more inclined to give it to Dray.

No

You’re right, after thinking about it Looney is the most important Warrior.

Curry had a worse RS and a worse PS than Harden. Dray had a worse RS and a worse PS than Leonard. I fail to see the case for any Warrior.

[Dr Spaceman]

No

You’re right, after thinking about it Looney is the most important Warrior.

Curry had a worse RS and a worse PS than Harden. Dray had a worse RS and a worse PS than Leonard. I fail to see the case for any Warrior.

I don’t disagree, in my OP I was just saying that if you gave it to the Warrior Dray IMO is the most deserving over Steph.

Although if the Warriors do come back I could see one of them having a case at the very least.

[eminence]

No

You’re right, after thinking about it Looney is the most important Warrior.

Curry had a worse RS and a worse PS than Harden. Dray had a worse RS and a worse PS than Leonard. I fail to see the case for any Warrior.

On Curry/Harden. RS is undeniably in Harden's favor. But personally I think of the Warriors playoff run as starting in round 2, and I'm not sure either way which player has looked better in the playoffs with that in mind. Dray's disappointing a bit in the finals probably knocked him out even for me.

[laika]

You’re right, after thinking about it Looney is the most important Warrior.

Curry had a worse RS and a worse PS than Harden. Dray had a worse RS and a worse PS than Leonard. I fail to see the case for any Warrior.

On Curry/Harden. RS is undeniably in Harden's favor. But personally I think of the Warriors playoff run as starting in round 2, and I'm not sure either way which player has looked better in the playoffs with that in mind. Dray's disappointing a bit in the finals probably knocked him out even for me.

No it's not.
Curry had a much better On/Off and Rapm than Harden in the regular season. His scoring was significantly more efficient. On defensive metrics Curry scores much better than Harden.
Curry actually has been undeniably better than Harden in the playoffs though.

[iggymcfrack]

Curry had a worse RS and a worse PS than Harden. Dray had a worse RS and a worse PS than Leonard. I fail to see the case for any Warrior.

On Curry/Harden. RS is undeniably in Harden's favor. But personally I think of the Warriors playoff run as starting in round 2, and I'm not sure either way which player has looked better in the playoffs with that in mind. Dray's disappointing a bit in the finals probably knocked him out even for me.

No it's not.
Curry had a much better On/Off and Rapm than Harden in the regular season. His scoring was significantly more efficient. On defensive metrics Curry scores much better than Harden.
Curry actually has been undeniably better than Harden in the playoffs though.

There’s a lot of colinearity with KD and Draymond Green involved in Steph’s plus/minus while Harden played a lot of minutes with really weak lineups as the only scorer. I really doubt that Steph’s defense and Harden’s makes up for the difference between a 24.4 PER and a 30.6 PER in the regular season. Even with playoffs included, Harden still has the higher RPM. My list right now would be:

1. Kawhi (set in stone barring an epically terrible last 2 games)
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. George
5. Curry (could climb as high as #3 with a fantastic last 2 games and a Warriors comeback)
6. Davis/Jokic/Embiid/Durant

[laika]

On Curry/Harden. RS is undeniably in Harden's favor. But personally I think of the Warriors playoff run as starting in round 2, and I'm not sure either way which player has looked better in the playoffs with that in mind. Dray's disappointing a bit in the finals probably knocked him out even for me.

No it's not.
Curry had a much better On/Off and Rapm than Harden in the regular season. His scoring was significantly more efficient. On defensive metrics Curry scores much better than Harden.
Curry actually has been undeniably better than Harden in the playoffs though.

There’s a lot of colinearity with KD and Draymond Green involved in Steph’s plus/minus while Harden played a lot of minutes with really weak lineups as the only scorer. I really doubt that Steph’s defense and Harden’s makes up for the difference between a 24.4 PER and a 30.6 PER in the regular season. Even with playoffs included, Harden still has the higher RPM. My list right now would be:

1. Kawhi (set in stone barring an epically terrible last 2 games)
2. Giannis
3. Harden
4. George
5. Curry (could climb as high as #3 with a fantastic last 2 games and a Warriors comeback)
6. Davis/Jokic/Embiid/Durant

You have no idea if there is any collinearity or not. Curry has been putting up historically great impact numbers for 5 years now now matter who he is playing with.
PER is close to a worthless stat.
RPM includes very little playoff data. It has not updated in a long time. Anyways, it's a black box that should be viewed with significant suspicion.
Your rankings are self contradictory.
Curry was monumentally better than Kawhi in the regular season.
Curry has been massively better than Harden in the playoffs.
There is no rational way to rank both Harden and Kawhi ahead of Curry this year. At most you could choose one.

[Heej]

I'm not seeing it with Kawhi's defense either. He seems much more like a super KD on that end where he's better on-ball and kinda meandering off-ball. Even when LeBron meanders on defense he's still just loafing around in the right spot. Kawhi if he's not on the ball (which is where he's legitimately terror-inducing) is collecting dust a lot somewhere in the corner. Also, I feel like communication plays a big deal. Lowry and Gasol seem to be the ones directing traffic and pointing out guys on where to be more than Kawhi does.

His offense has been something like Kobe level at least, maybe even Jordan/LeBron level in terms of solely scoring, but I'm just not seeing it with his defense. Even vs Giannis I think it was the Raptors scheme more than anything else, because Siakam was doing just as good a job on Giannis during the second half of the series when they really sold out on Giannis.

I thought Harden was the MVP this season; and he made teams try ridiculous things just to contain him, including the ridiculous doggy style defense by the Jazz in their first round matchup. I'd take Harden and Giannis both over Kawhi just due to the body of work. Playoffs only it's clearly been Kawhi though