RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

[John Thomas]

I don't understand why Wilt is rated out of the top 5
Maybe someone can reply with a comprehensive argument

He never developed a consistent identity as a player, and there's some statistical support for the idea that a lot times the approaches he took didn't help his team as much as you'd expect from his raw stats. In a lot of his high scoring years his team offense wasn't that spectacular, which might make you think he was stat padding. His defense focus was come-and-go, and he clashed with a lot of his coaches. He had an article ripping his coach one year that come out right before the season started, essentially sabotaging the team before the year had even started. Obviously another player--Russell--dominated the decade in terms of team success, while Wilt was somewhat nomadic as far as superstars go.

I think there's a general (though not necessarily universal) agreement that when Wilt was right, he was better than anyone else of his day. But there are a lot of factors that cut against him, enough that, when you're comparing him to the very best ever, you might rank him lower than you'd expect to rank him at first blush. He's very similar to Shaq in that manner.

A lot of these guys have more blemishes on their career resumes than is commonly admitted, and sometimes it's a matter of what you make of those blemishes. Bird and Magic have longevity issues (and Bird had some bad playoff performances), e.g., and Shaq's defensive effort and conditioning varied pretty wildly from season-to-season. For some people Shaq's blemishes are a bigger deal than Wilt's/Bird's, for others it's Wilt's that stand out, etc. Even a guy like Kareem arguably has some blemishes on his resume. Same with Jordan.

I think different lists should be made for a players ability and a player's career ranking. If we go by ability Wilt should be at the top.

[ThaRegul8r]

I think different lists should be made for a players ability and a player's career ranking. If we go by ability Wilt should be at the top.

I've asked this question before, but haven't gotten an answer. Going strictly by ability and nothing else—only ability, where would players like Rasheed Wallace and Derrick Coleman rank all-time?

[Durins Baynes]

You should judge guys careers off the career they actually had, not the one they might have had, had circumstances been different. As such, stuff like "what if Sheed and Coleman had different attitudes" or "what if Len Bias lived" or "what if Shaq had taken better care of his body" are basically irrelevant. Obviously they'd all have been better if those things had happened... but they didn't, which is the point.

[ThaRegul8r]

You should judge guys careers off the career they actually had, not the one they might have had, had circumstances been different. As such, stuff like "what if Sheed and Coleman had different attitudes" or "what if Len Bias lived" or "what if Shaq had taken better care of his body" are basically irrelevant. Obviously they'd all have been better if those things had happened... but they didn't, which is the point.

That isn't the point. I was asking a question specifically to people who claim to rate players solely by ability, or that players should be rated in such a manner. (I said nothing about attitudes, I was going by the standard mentioned.) I want to see the consequence of such a belief, and see it actually put in action across the board and not simply used to boost a particular player. If you believe players should be rated solely by ability, then where do you rank Player X? If you don't rank players that way, then it doesn't apply.

[John Thomas]

I think different lists should be made for a players ability and a player's career ranking. If we go by ability Wilt should be at the top.

I've asked this question before, but haven't gotten an answer. Going strictly by ability and nothing else—only ability, where would players like Rasheed Wallace and Derrick Coleman rank all-time?

cant really come up with something right now (its almost midnight here) but maybe start a thread?
They would rank higher than they do now i would think

[Bostons Finest]

IMO the top ten today is

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Wilt
7. Lebron
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem

[Reservoirdawgs]

Yeah, I'm currently leanings towards these players in my own Top 10:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul Jabar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Lebron James
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

If Lebron was to maintain a typical career trajectory that most superstars tend to have, I think that his highest ranking would probably be at #4 (getting past Jordan, Russell, and KAJ is going to take a LOT).

[cyclix]

Just out of curiosity, where do you guys have Wade ranked on your all-time list?


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[therealbig3]

Just out of curiosity, where do you guys have Wade ranked on your all-time list?


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I have him at #20.

I think very highly of his prime, but his longevity really hurts him. He's only got 5 seasons where he was at a superstar level (05, 06, 09, 10, and 11), and even in those seasons, injuries affected him in the playoffs (05 and 09), even though he still played at a high level.

Really hard for me to find a lot of value in his 07, 08, and 13 seasons, because of his injuries. And in 12, he was still a very good player, but again, injuries limited him in the playoffs, and although he had some really good stretches of play, he was overall a clear step down from his typical self and wasn't what I'd call a superstar that year. All-Star level at best.

We'll see how he plays this season, and in the playoffs, but from what we've seen, chances are he'll be injured and limited once again this year. His knees are shot at this point imo.

I'd say Wade, Nash, Pippen, Barkley, Ewing, and M. Malone are all comparable players that can be argued over each other.

[Doctor MJ]

If Lebron was to maintain a typical career trajectory that most superstars tend to have, I think that his highest ranking would probably be at #4 (getting past Jordan, Russell, and KAJ is going to take a LOT).

Absolutely true, but I was thinking on this a little bit recently. My own personal RPOY voting, if LeBron finishes #1 again this year, he'll already be up there north of 7 shares right in the same ballpark as anyone other than the Big 3.

Still a long way to go before catching those 3 after that, but it's starting to look like Top 4 - by this simplistic measure at least - will happen very soon.

[HeartBreakKid]

I probably have him at #8 if he has another strong season for sure.

[Reservoirdawgs]

Absolutely true, but I was thinking on this a little bit recently. My own personal RPOY voting, if LeBron finishes #1 again this year, he'll already be up there north of 7 shares right in the same ballpark as anyone other than the Big 3.

Still a long way to go before catching those 3 after that, but it's starting to look like Top 4 - by this simplistic measure at least - will happen very soon.

Would you mind explaining how you do your RPOY voting? Do you use a variation of win shares?

[Doctor MJ]

Absolutely true, but I was thinking on this a little bit recently. My own personal RPOY voting, if LeBron finishes #1 again this year, he'll already be up there north of 7 shares right in the same ballpark as anyone other than the Big 3.

Still a long way to go before catching those 3 after that, but it's starting to look like Top 4 - by this simplistic measure at least - will happen very soon.

Would you mind explaining how you do your RPOY voting? Do you use a variation of win shares?

No, it's a variation on MVP shares.

With the MVP, people voter their Top 5 guys, and those guys get 10-7-5-3-1 points respectively.

A players MVP share is his number of points divided by the most points he could have gotten (10 times the number of ballots).

To get career MVP shares, you simply add together all the different years.

RPOY - the project - did this same basic thing, but with our RealGM crew as voters, and by using regular & post-season to determine who deserved to be ranked the highest.

Wnen I talk about my personal RPOY shares, I basically do the same process, but there's only 1 voter.

[Fencer reregistered]

I think different lists should be made for a players ability and a player's career ranking. If we go by ability Wilt should be at the top.

I've asked this question before, but haven't gotten an answer. Going strictly by ability and nothing else—only ability, where would players like Rasheed Wallace and Derrick Coleman rank all-time?

Unanswerable, because you can't judge an elite player's ability unless he knocks himself out trying to win, and other teams knock themselves out trying to contain him, and he adapts his game as best he can to respond to their efforts, and so on.

Russell did what he did for 13 years, and adjustments away from the kinds of shots he blocked most easily didn't much hamper his effectiveness. Jordan had to learn how to score against tightly packed lanes; he did so, to the point that he was a scary-good outside shooter in games (I phrase it that way because of his dismal performance in the 3-pt contest). Kareem could be blitzed with a double team to hamper his skyhook, and so his greatness depends in large part on how well he passed out of that. Lebron was a try-to-do-everything choker, and he's only being discussed for high single-digit rankings on this list now that he's changed his game. Magic wouldn't be this high if his outside shooting hadn't improved. Etc.

[Fencer reregistered]

pau gasol ahead of dennis rodman and james worthy? McGrady ahead of all 3?

It was determined that McGrady's peak was jaw-droppingly elite, and his lack of post-season success didn't reflect that badly on him. The arguments were good enough that I'd have put him top 50 myself, and I was one of the McGrady skeptics.

[HeartBreakKid]

So what do you guys think of doing a new list this summer?

[Drummer Boy]

Yeah, I'm currently leanings towards these players in my own Top 10:

1. Michael Jordan
2. Bill Russell
3. Kareem Abdul Jabar
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Magic Johnson
6. Larry Bird
7. Tim Duncan
8. Shaquille O'Neal
9. Lebron James
10. Hakeem Olajuwon

If Lebron was to maintain a typical career trajectory that most superstars tend to have, I think that his highest ranking would probably be at #4 (getting past Jordan, Russell, and KAJ is going to take a LOT).

To both you and @Boston's Finest:

Just curious, but if you view Akeem as a top-10 player, why not Isiah Thomas? He arguably had a greater playoff run than Hakeem's best, taking out Jordan, Bird, and Magic, and averaged 20-10 for 4 straight years, unHEARD of for a PG

[Quotatious]

Just curious, but if you view Akeem as a top-10 player, why not Isiah Thomas? He arguably had a greater playoff run than Hakeem's best, taking out Jordan, Bird, and Magic, and averaged 20-10 for 4 straight years, unHEARD of for a PG

Seriously? It's not about 'taking out Jordan, Bird and Magic' (that's a team effort) but about individual performance and in that regard, Isiah isn't even a top 25 player of all-time, I'm not even sure if he is in the top 30.

[HeartBreakKid]

Just curious, but if you view Akeem as a top-10 player, why not Isiah Thomas? He arguably had a greater playoff run than Hakeem's best, taking out Jordan, Bird, and Magic, and averaged 20-10 for 4 straight years, unHEARD of for a PG

Seriously? It's not about 'taking out Jordan, Bird and Magic' (that's a team effort) but about individual performance and in that regard, Isiah isn't even a top 25 player of all-time, I'm not even sure if he is in the top 30.

I'm surprised you even responded.

[Drummer Boy]

Just curious, but if you view Akeem as a top-10 player, why not Isiah Thomas? He arguably had a greater playoff run than Hakeem's best, taking out Jordan, Bird, and Magic, and averaged 20-10 for 4 straight years, unHEARD of for a PG

Seriously? It's not about 'taking out Jordan, Bird and Magic' (that's a team effort) but about individual performance and in that regard, Isiah isn't even a top 25 player of all-time, I'm not even sure if he is in the top 30.

Thomas has the number and accomplishments, I'm not sure what you mean. And that team argument fits any agenda, as most people forget that the only reason Houston was a sixth seed in '95 was because Drexler was acquired after the deadline, and injuries derailed Rudy's team at first, and they won all those games on the road as a team. So please, I'd prefer to not get into discrediting players here, as it works both ways.