2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

mikejames23 · Post #841 » by **mikejames23** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:11 am

Jimmy Buckets is a nice reminder of some of Ron Artest's best work from back in the day. Can easily lead the franchise to some nice things here and there with elite level play. Great 2 way player.

GSP · Post #842 » by **GSP** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:13 am

Fundamentals21 wrote:Jimmy Buckets is a nice reminder of some of Ron Artest's best work from back in the day. Can easily lead the franchise to some nice things here and there with elite level play. Great 2 way player.

lol.........prime Jimmy is on a different tier from any version of Artest. Miles apart offensively

SideshowBob · Post #843 » by **SideshowBob** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:22 am

What a legendary game!

70sFan · Post #844 » by **70sFan** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:26 am

GSP wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:Jimmy Buckets is a nice reminder of some of Ron Artest's best work from back in the day. Can easily lead the franchise to some nice things here and there with elite level play. Great 2 way player.

lol.........prime Jimmy is on a different tier from any version of Artest. Miles apart offensively

Sure, but from intensity standpoint they can be compared!

E-Balla · Post #845 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:27 am

70sFan wrote:
GSP wrote:
Fundamentals21 wrote:Jimmy Buckets is a nice reminder of some of Ron Artest's best work from back in the day. Can easily lead the franchise to some nice things here and there with elite level play. Great 2 way player.

lol.........prime Jimmy is on a different tier from any version of Artest. Miles apart offensively

Sure, but from intensity standpoint they can be compared!

He got multiple travels called on LeBron of all people. That's the league crowning him GOAT I'm sure of it.

70sFan · Post #846 » by **70sFan** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:31 am

E-Balla wrote:
70sFan wrote:
GSP wrote:
lol.........prime Jimmy is on a different tier from any version of Artest. Miles apart offensively

Sure, but from intensity standpoint they can be compared!

He got multiple travels called on LeBron of all people. That's the league crowning him GOAT I'm sure of it.

I love the job refs did tonight, they called everything very tight.

HeartBreakKid · Post #847 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:42 am

Dupp wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
Dupp wrote:Bucks actually only won a game and then looked super competitive without Giannis..

I saw this on the general board so much that I assumed he was injured in like one minute and didn't play.

He scored 19 points before leaving...in 11 minutes, and they still barely won. So if he wasn't red hot before he went out they would have lost.

This is almost inferring 'they are better without him' when the only game they won was the one where he played the best. In general we see this type of logic in the general boards every season, but this one in particular is really off.

Offensively they did look better without him in game 4 and 5. Obviously they aren’t better without him but it was easier for Miami to pack the paint when he was in.

It's not that it is easier, it's that they have less reason to pack the paint. Who are they packing the paint for, Bledsoe?

Here is the thing, no one ACTUALLY knows what the gap is between the best East and West teams are this season. Once the Bucks got bopped by the Heat the first assumption was "oh the East must not be that good, the West will easily win" - when an equally valid but less made assumption was "oh, the East is actually better than we thought if they have teams that can beat the Bucks". There was this idea that the Lakers and Clippers would automatically destroy any team they faced in the finals, we damn sure know that ain't true with the Clippers.

If the Heat are healthy, who knows what they could have pushed the Lakers to? But before I made this post people were pretty much thinking sweep, including myself without Bam and Goran. With those guys - it could be a series. This doesn't excuse Giannis play in particular (though he was adapting to them), but we have to take into account that people really got on the Bucks because they thought the Heat were not that good.

Another way to look at it - Giannis numbers really are not worse than Kawhi Leonard's, and while Leonard's reputation took a bit of a hit most of the blame went to his teammates (even though he had his stinkers himself). We know that Kawhi has a "playoff caliber" style but it didn't actually translate into anything more impactful, so why does Giannis get so much more heat than Leonard?

therealbig3 · Post #848 » by **therealbig3** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 7:05 am

Great game by Butler...unfortunately, the top 5 is really tough to crack, don't think he has a realistic shot at getting there.

ardee · Post #849 » by **ardee** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 9:17 am

therealbig3 wrote:Great game by Butler...unfortunately, the top 5 is really tough to crack, don't think he has a realistic shot at getting there.

Great game is underselling it... that was one of the best performances of all time. 2nd highest game score in the Finals EVER behind only game 6 LeBron in 2016.

40 point triple double on 20 shots is completely bonkers. And it tells you the gap between the teams that the Heat needed this AND foul trouble for AD to win.

E-Balla · Post #850 » by **E-Balla** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 12:27 pm

therealbig3 wrote:Great game by Butler...unfortunately, the top 5 is really tough to crack, don't think he has a realistic shot at getting there.

IDK, bringing a team to the Finals and averaging 29/7/10 while playing great defense on LeBron (he forced at least 4 turnovers last game) and having a 69 TS% has to put you there. Butler is currently outplaying LeBron in a positional matchup, that's a pretty big deal.

70sFan · Post #851 » by **70sFan** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 12:36 pm

We need to wait for the rest of the finals before any proper ranking of Butler.

One interesting thing - Butler shows that your perimeter star doesn't need a reliable three point shot as long as you put around him shooters. Jimmy doesn't shoot threes basically and he doesn't rely on that. It should close any doubts about Wades, Jordans and Ervings of the world in 2020 NBA.

limbo · Post #852 » by **limbo** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:20 pm

70sFan wrote:We need to wait for the rest of the finals before any proper ranking of Butler.

One interesting thing - Butler shows that your perimeter star doesn't need a reliable three point shot as long as you put around him shooters. Jimmy doesn't shoot threes basically and he doesn't rely on that. It should close any doubts about Wades, Jordans and Ervings of the world in 2020 NBA.

Lol. Why do you act like Butler's some ATG offensive player right now despite playing with elite spacing? Also why do you act like the narrative is you need to be a reliable 3pt shooter to have a good offense when Giannis can't shoot but is still leading great offenses.

Having the ability to pass well, drive inside the paint, get to the line 15 times will always have value... That's what someone like Wade excelled at. And you need someone on your team to put that type of pressure on the rim anyway to get shooting opportunities.

It's just that having a good outside shot puts you to the next level, makes you less counterable and makes you a better fit among other talent that like to dominate the ball. That's all...

If the Heat win the title it would not be on the back of Butler being this amazing offensive engine inspite a lack of an outside shot, but rather similar to how the Spurs were in 2013/14. Just a well coached team with great shooting and two-way players.

A guy like Butler has the ability to pop off for 40 points because he is one of the best players in the league at getting into the paint and drawing fouls. After that it's just a matter of making enough shots.

70sFan · Post #853 » by **70sFan** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:26 pm

limbo wrote:
70sFan wrote:We need to wait for the rest of the finals before any proper ranking of Butler.

One interesting thing - Butler shows that your perimeter star doesn't need a reliable three point shot as long as you put around him shooters. Jimmy doesn't shoot threes basically and he doesn't rely on that. It should close any doubts about Wades, Jordans and Ervings of the world in 2020 NBA.

Lol. Why do you act like Butler's some ATG offensive player right now despite playing with elite spacing? Also why do you act like the narrative is you need to be a reliable 3pt shooter to have a good offense when Giannis can't shoot but is still leading great offenses.

Having the ability to pass well, drive inside the paint, get to the line 15 times will always have value... That's what someone like Wade excelled at. And you need someone on your team to put that type of pressure on the rim anyway to get shooting opportunities.

It's just that having a good outside shot puts you to the next level, makes you less counterable and makes you a better fit among other talent that like to dominate the ball. That's all...

If the Heat win the title it would not be on the back of Butler being this amazing offensive engine inspite a lack of an outside shot, but rather similar to how the Spurs were in 2013/14. Just a well coached team with great shooting and two-way players.

A guy like Butler has the ability to pop off for 40 points because he is one of the best players in the league at getting into the paint and drawing fouls. After that it's just a matter of making enough shots.

I don't talk to you, but a lot of posters question portability to 2020 of high scoring wings who weren't good three point shooters. I don't get why you came so defensive in your reply, it's a common argument against someone like Jordan from people who question his ability.

limbo · Post #854 » by **limbo** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 2:46 pm

I'm not defensive, i just had enough conversations with you on this board to know your tendencies. You like to twist what is being claimed and blow it out of proportion, and then cherry pick some specific example to argue a general point.

Like when people question Wade's portability you seem to like to translate that as meaning Wade couldn't run a successful offense in 2020... But that's not what is generally being claimed, at least by the majority of posters i've seen, there might be one or two exceptions.

A guy that can't shoot will always have portability question marks over him. That's all. That doesn't mean he can't pilot a successful offense under the right circumstances.

When people say Wade's portability might be a bigger issue now than it was 10-15 years ago, i do think that could be the case, because teams have got a lot better at knowing how to gameplan against a team that doesn't have great spacing unlike back in 2006. I think that's a perfectly valid claim to make.

Now, at the same time, if you have elite shooting to surround Wade, and the opposing team decides to sack rim protection in favor of optimizing offense, then obviously a guy like Wade is gonna feast because he was ATG at getting to the rim.

SideshowBob · Post #855 » by **SideshowBob** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 3:23 pm

Old thread on "portability"

Post #856 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 4:31 pm

Hey folks,

With the end of the season almost upon us, I thought I'd ask if someone other than me wants to be the one who is tallying up the votes and handling other stuff. Ardee, you started this thread, so do say if you're interested there.

I'm willing to be the running it or not, what's important to me is that the key rules stay consistent:

1. Same voting depth (5 for POY, 3 for everything else) and weighting as before.
2. Voters don't have to vote in every category, but their votes will not count in any given award unless they provide a full ballot.
3. Eligibility of votership is intend to be those who have previously shown involvement with the "POY community" either through discussion this year or previous voting.

Cheers,
Doc

70sFan · Post #857 » by **70sFan** » Mon Oct 5, 2020 5:06 pm

limbo wrote:Like when people question Wade's portability you seem to like to translate that as meaning Wade couldn't run a successful offense in 2020... But that's not what is generally being claimed, at least by the majority of posters i've seen, there might be one or two exceptions.

Then I don't think you've seen enough posts on RealGM to be honest. Wade isn't generally talked about a lot, but there are significant group of posters who say that Jordan would struggle to make the impact because of lack of three point line.

Of course Jordan has a lot of supporters here, but the tendency is much bigger with someone like Julius Erving. People often say that he wouldn't translate to modern era well because he didn't shoot threes. Even though Julius proved that he thrived in more spaced era in ABA with three point line.

I didn't respond with my original post to your point, so stop acting like everyone has the same opinion as you. A lot of people question perimeter players without reliable three point shot and I just pointed out that Butler has been proving that your main ball handler doesn't have to be good three point shooter as long as he's elite in other aspects of the game and has good spacing around him. You basically agreed with me, but it didn't stop you from questioning my point anyway.

70sFan · Post #858 » by **70sFan** » Wed Oct 7, 2020 3:52 am

Absurd defensive performance from Davis. This is the first time these playoffs when I watched him and thought "man, this guy finally reached next level". He did everything on that end - blocking shots, protecting the paint, guarding Butler for big part of the game, shutting down P&Rs.

Davis isn't that consistent defender, but his ceiling is very high.

therealbig3 · Post #859 » by **therealbig3** » Wed Oct 7, 2020 6:10 am

70sFan wrote:Absurd defensive performance from Davis. This is the first time these playoffs when I watched him and thought "man, this guy finally reached next level". He did everything on that end - blocking shots, protecting the paint, guarding Butler for big part of the game, shutting down P&Rs.

Davis isn't that consistent defender, but his ceiling is very high.

Yup. Unpopular opinion, but I think he was the Lakers' best player tonight. LeBron turned around a brutal 1st half and was quite honestly great in the 2nd half...but Davis's defense was just amazing tonight. Contributed a very efficient 22/9/4 with 4 blocks of his own, and only had 2 TOs. Just a clean all-around offensive game from Davis with dominant defense.

Joey Wheeler · Post #860 » by **Joey Wheeler** » Wed Oct 7, 2020 6:16 am

70sFan wrote:Absurd defensive performance from Davis. This is the first time these playoffs when I watched him and thought "man, this guy finally reached next level". He did everything on that end - blocking shots, protecting the paint, guarding Butler for big part of the game, shutting down P&Rs.

Davis isn't that consistent defender, but his ceiling is very high.

Told you Davis is a historic defensive player. He can genuinely lock down 1-5.