RealGM Top 100 List -- 2011

[Grandpa Waiters]

Deron Williams in the top 100 and no Dennis Johnson? Kevin Garnett over West, Oscar, Havlicek, David Robinson, Ewing, Moses and Barkley? Garnett is the most overrated player in history (or at least on RealGM). Steve Nash in front of Pippen, Havlicek, Isiah and Stockton? Artis Gilmore at 34? Huh? Elton Brand on the top 100? YIKES!

Co-sign, mostly.

KG should not be ahead of West, Oscar, or Moses. Havlicek, Robinson...that's more his company. I would totally take KG over Ewing and Barkley, no hesitation. Nash is way, way too high. Gilmore ain't that great. Deron Williams isn't even greater than Rondo, lol. Brand is in that 90-120 brakhage.

I'd take Ewing and Barkley over KG without even having to think about it. Barkley was a better scorer than KG could ever dream of being and was a better rebounder when he wanted to be, especially when it mattered. Deron Williams in the top 100? In what universe? What has he ever accomplished? He's not even a top five point guard in the league. The worst however is Elton Brand. I can think of about fifty forwards who didn't even make the list I'd take over him (Horace Grant, Terry Cummings, Tom Chambers, AC Green, Buck Williams etc). Elton friggin Brand. LOL.

[Drummer Boy]

Deron Williams in the top 100 and no Dennis Johnson? Kevin Garnett over West, Oscar, Havlicek, David Robinson, Ewing, Moses and Barkley? Garnett is the most overrated player in history (or at least on RealGM). Steve Nash in front of Pippen, Havlicek, Isiah and Stockton? Artis Gilmore at 34? Huh? Elton Brand on the top 100? YIKES!

Whoa, whoa. Usually I'm agree with you, but this took me aback. What makes Admiral better than Kevin, and the Ewing mention especially baffles me I disagree on Moses as well, but that debate's already going on, no need to rehash it here, more interested in the former mentions

[Notanoob]

I'd take Ewing and Barkley over KG without even having to think about it. Barkley was a better scorer than KG could ever dream of being and was a better rebounder when he wanted to be, especially when it mattered. Deron Williams in the top 100? In what universe? What has he ever accomplished? He's not even a top five point guard in the league. The worst however is Elton Brand. I can think of about fifty forwards who didn't even make the list I'd take over him (Horace Grant, Terry Cummings, Tom Chambers, AC Green, Buck Williams etc). Elton friggin Brand. LOL.

This list has plenty of placements that make you pause and ask, "WTF?", but the reasons that KG is over Chuck aren't that hard to figure out. Chuck was a significantly better player at his best, but showing up out of shape and never winning a ring quickly send him down the list. Unlike some lists, this one is designed to take into account a player's full career, so longevity, achievements, work ethic and the like are given credence, not just their peak. Plus, Chuck didn't play defense like any of the other great power forwards except Dirk. Ewing's the same sort of deal; didn't win a ring, always #2 to some other center, that sort of thing.

Brand is a real headscratcher though. I can't explain that one much at all. Deron is also an odd choice, considering his injury issues and not being all that great a leader.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Deron Williams in the top 100 and no Dennis Johnson? Kevin Garnett over West, Oscar, Havlicek, David Robinson, Ewing, Moses and Barkley? Garnett is the most overrated player in history (or at least on RealGM). Steve Nash in front of Pippen, Havlicek, Isiah and Stockton? Artis Gilmore at 34? Huh? Elton Brand on the top 100? YIKES!

Whoa, whoa. Usually I'm agree with you, but this took me aback. What makes Admiral better than Kevin, and the Ewing mention especially baffles me I disagree on Moses as well, but that debate's already going on, no need to rehash it here, more interested in the former mentions

Admiral was a better scorer, shot blocker and defender in my opinion. People forget he lost two years due to his tour of duty in the Navy. He led the Spurs to the biggest one season turn around in NBA history as a rookie (besting Bird's rookie season turn around).

Ewing at his peak was a better scorer than KG and had more playoff success as the man vs KG's playoff futility in Minnesota. He lost to Jordan in seven games in '92 and in the ECF in '93 before losing to Hakeem in game seven of the finals in '94, better than KG ever did as the man. I know you'll probably disagree as KG is somehow thought of as a GOD on RealGM. His high ranking is baffling.

[Grandpa Waiters]

I'd take Ewing and Barkley over KG without even having to think about it. Barkley was a better scorer than KG could ever dream of being and was a better rebounder when he wanted to be, especially when it mattered. Deron Williams in the top 100? In what universe? What has he ever accomplished? He's not even a top five point guard in the league. The worst however is Elton Brand. I can think of about fifty forwards who didn't even make the list I'd take over him (Horace Grant, Terry Cummings, Tom Chambers, AC Green, Buck Williams etc). Elton friggin Brand. LOL.

This list has plenty of placements that make you pause and ask, "WTF?", but the reasons that KG is over Chuck aren't that hard to figure out. Chuck was a significantly better player at his best, but showing up out of shape and never winning a ring quickly send him down the list. Unlike some lists, this one is designed to take into account a player's full career, so longevity, achievements, work ethic and the like are given credence, not just their peak. Plus, Chuck didn't play defense like any of the other great power forwards except Dirk. Ewing's the same sort of deal; didn't win a ring, always #2 to some other center, that sort of thing.

Brand is a real headscratcher though. I can't explain that one much at all. Deron is also an odd choice, considering his injury issues and not being all that great a leader.

Garnett has one ring. That puts him over West and Oscar (who have one ring apiece) and ahead of Havlicek who has eight? Garnett is not in front of Moses, (who has a ring) Barkley or Karl Malone (who do not). Barkley and Malone lost three finals to MJ. If KG and his Celts played those Bulls teams he'd be ringless too. Also, Deron is in no way better than Dennis Johnson, who was a premier defensive guard and clutch player (game winning jumper in game 4 of the '85 Finals in LA and game winning layup off of Bird's steal of Isiah's inbounds pass in the '87 ECF) not to mention winning three rings with two different teams. My two cents.

[Drummer Boy]

Deron Williams in the top 100 and no Dennis Johnson? Kevin Garnett over West, Oscar, Havlicek, David Robinson, Ewing, Moses and Barkley? Garnett is the most overrated player in history (or at least on RealGM). Steve Nash in front of Pippen, Havlicek, Isiah and Stockton? Artis Gilmore at 34? Huh? Elton Brand on the top 100? YIKES!

Whoa, whoa. Usually I'm agree with you, but this took me aback. What makes Admiral better than Kevin, and the Ewing mention especially baffles me I disagree on Moses as well, but that debate's already going on, no need to rehash it here, more interested in the former mentions

Admiral was a better scorer, shot blocker and defender in my opinion. People forget he lost two years due to his tour of duty in the Navy. He led the Spurs to the biggest one season turn around in NBA history as a rookie (besting Bird's rookie season turn around).

Ewing at his peak was a better scorer than KG and had more playoff success as the man vs KG's playoff futility in Minnesota. He lost to Jordan in seven games in '92 and in the ECF in '93 before losing to Hakeem in game seven of the finals in '94, better than KG ever did as the man. I know you'll probably disagree as KG is somehow thought of as a GOD on RealGM. His high ranking is baffling.

I don't like to think that I think that highly of Garnett, as I have him as a top-25 player. Just from watching their careers, Garnett seemed to be on a different level. This Patrick that you envision, really for me was only that good in '90, when he knocked off Bird on his home court, and I believe was his only top-3 finish in scoring, and his only first team selection. Robinson had that immediate impact, yes. When I first saw him play, I thought for sure he'd be a top-10 player all-time, he had ALL THE GIFTS. But to me, it seemed like he underachieved, and put up empty stats during the '90s. Don't think he had quite the heart, or impact Kevin had, but that's just me.

[Drummer Boy]

I'd take Ewing and Barkley over KG without even having to think about it. Barkley was a better scorer than KG could ever dream of being and was a better rebounder when he wanted to be, especially when it mattered. Deron Williams in the top 100? In what universe? What has he ever accomplished? He's not even a top five point guard in the league. The worst however is Elton Brand. I can think of about fifty forwards who didn't even make the list I'd take over him (Horace Grant, Terry Cummings, Tom Chambers, AC Green, Buck Williams etc). Elton friggin Brand. LOL.

This list has plenty of placements that make you pause and ask, "WTF?", but the reasons that KG is over Chuck aren't that hard to figure out. Chuck was a significantly better player at his best, but showing up out of shape and never winning a ring quickly send him down the list. Unlike some lists, this one is designed to take into account a player's full career, so longevity, achievements, work ethic and the like are given credence, not just their peak. Plus, Chuck didn't play defense like any of the other great power forwards except Dirk. Ewing's the same sort of deal; didn't win a ring, always #2 to some other center, that sort of thing.

Brand is a real headscratcher though. I can't explain that one much at all. Deron is also an odd choice, considering his injury issues and not being all that great a leader.

This is wrong, as it's highly debatable. I have trouble deciding which one I prefer, and my Philly bias makes me lean towards UpChuck. And it's not as if Barkley was a total liability on defense.

He could turn it on when he wanted to. You don't average 2.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in a season by not playing any defense.

In 3 separate seasons he had 100 steals and 100 blocks. That's something not even Kobe and LeBron have never done. And it's only been done 23 other times by 25+ game scorers

So to say "no defense" is something of an exaggeration. He made defensive plays.

And if you ask Bill Walton:

"He plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."

[wigglestrue]

KG is the kind of player for whom there are compelling arguments for any place on the all-time ranking between, say, 10 and 25. Wouldn't it be useful to do some Bayesian whatnot with these rankings? Rather than "I have KG at #16" or some such impossibly specific placement, like, "I have KG at 10>KG<25" or something a bit more narrow?

[Grandpa Waiters]

Whoa, whoa. Usually I'm agree with you, but this took me aback. What makes Admiral better than Kevin, and the Ewing mention especially baffles me I disagree on Moses as well, but that debate's already going on, no need to rehash it here, more interested in the former mentions

Admiral was a better scorer, shot blocker and defender in my opinion. People forget he lost two years due to his tour of duty in the Navy. He led the Spurs to the biggest one season turn around in NBA history as a rookie (besting Bird's rookie season turn around).

Ewing at his peak was a better scorer than KG and had more playoff success as the man vs KG's playoff futility in Minnesota. He lost to Jordan in seven games in '92 and in the ECF in '93 before losing to Hakeem in game seven of the finals in '94, better than KG ever did as the man. I know you'll probably disagree as KG is somehow thought of as a GOD on RealGM. His high ranking is baffling.

I don't like to think that I think that highly of Garnett, as I have him as a top-25 player. Just from watching their careers, Garnett seemed to be on a different level. This Patrick that you envision, really for me was only that good in '90, when he knocked off Bird on his home court, and I believe was his only top-3 finish in scoring, and his only first team selection. Robinson had that immediate impact, yes. When I first saw him play, I thought for sure he'd be a top-10 player all-time, he had ALL THE GIFTS. But to me, it seemed like he underachieved, and put up empty stats during the '90s. Don't think he had quite the heart, or impact Kevin had, but that's just me.

Yep. Ewing peaked around '89 so most of the posters who put Garnett in front of him probably have no memory of prime Ewing or only remember him in the late '90's or as a Sonic or Magic player (much like kids now will only remember KG as a scrub on the Nets). Robinson did underachieve but so did KG and since DRob is a better player and they BOTH underachieved he gets the nod in my book.

[Notanoob]

Garnett has one ring. That puts him over West and Oscar (who have one ring apiece) and ahead of Havlicek who has eight? Garnett is not in front of Moses, (who has a ring) Barkley or Karl Malone (who do not). Barkley and Malone lost three finals to MJ. If KG and his Celts played those Bulls teams he'd be ringless too. Also, Deron is in no way better than Dennis Johnson, who was a premier defensive guard and clutch player (game winning jumper in game 4 of the '85 Finals in LA and game winning layup off of Bird's steal of Isiah's inbounds pass in the '87 ECF) not to mention winning three rings with two different teams. My two cents.

I personally think that Oscar was a better player than KG, but I find it striking how you don't penalize Oscar for never doing anything as the man, only getting his ring when he had Kareem to play with, while constantly ragging on KG's time in Minnisota. Oscar made two conference finals, but also got bounced in the first round 4 times, and missed the playoffs entirely another 4 times before he was traded to Milwaukee.

Also, I think it's pretty obvious that the list does not go exclusively by ring count. It's simply something that goes into a person's perception. With Chuck, he wouldn't be penalized as much for not winning a ring if he didn't show up at the start of the season overweight or waste nights out drinking and show up to the game still brutally hung over.

Hondo doesn't get much love for having 8 rings because he got 6 of them when Russel was there. Which is pretty reasonable IMO. I think if you could plug in a number of guys into Russel's Celtics and he'd lead them to victory. Great player, could do with a higher rating.

I don't know why you're continuing to bitch about Deron, no one is disagreeing with you. We're frankly a bit sick of you constantly attacking anyone who played after 1990 as being overrated too. Especially when you're just shitposting and not actually writing some insightful critique.

[Grandpa Waiters]

I'd take Ewing and Barkley over KG without even having to think about it. Barkley was a better scorer than KG could ever dream of being and was a better rebounder when he wanted to be, especially when it mattered. Deron Williams in the top 100? In what universe? What has he ever accomplished? He's not even a top five point guard in the league. The worst however is Elton Brand. I can think of about fifty forwards who didn't even make the list I'd take over him (Horace Grant, Terry Cummings, Tom Chambers, AC Green, Buck Williams etc). Elton friggin Brand. LOL.

This list has plenty of placements that make you pause and ask, "WTF?", but the reasons that KG is over Chuck aren't that hard to figure out. Chuck was a significantly better player at his best, but showing up out of shape and never winning a ring quickly send him down the list. Unlike some lists, this one is designed to take into account a player's full career, so longevity, achievements, work ethic and the like are given credence, not just their peak. Plus, Chuck didn't play defense like any of the other great power forwards except Dirk. Ewing's the same sort of deal; didn't win a ring, always #2 to some other center, that sort of thing.

Brand is a real headscratcher though. I can't explain that one much at all. Deron is also an odd choice, considering his injury issues and not being all that great a leader.

This is wrong, as it's highly debatable. I have trouble deciding which one I prefer, and my Philly bias makes me lean towards UpChuck. And it's not as if Barkley was a total liability on defense.

He could turn it on when he wanted to. You don't average 2.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in a season by not playing any defense.

In 3 separate seasons he had 100 steals and 100 blocks. That's something not even Kobe and LeBron have never done. And it's only been done 23 other times by 25+ game scorers

So to say "no defense" is something of an exaggeration. He made defensive plays.

And if you ask Bill Walton:

"He plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."

Yep. Chuck wasn't as bad defensively as his narrative suggests and KG wasn't as great defensively as his suggests. Sometimes these narratives get developed early and they stick even if the visual or statistical evidence suggests otherwise (ie Michael Jordan had no jumper early in his career or only developed a post game during his second three peat). Total myths that somehow survive.

[wigglestrue]

This list has plenty of placements that make you pause and ask, "WTF?", but the reasons that KG is over Chuck aren't that hard to figure out. Chuck was a significantly better player at his best, but showing up out of shape and never winning a ring quickly send him down the list. Unlike some lists, this one is designed to take into account a player's full career, so longevity, achievements, work ethic and the like are given credence, not just their peak. Plus, Chuck didn't play defense like any of the other great power forwards except Dirk. Ewing's the same sort of deal; didn't win a ring, always #2 to some other center, that sort of thing.

Brand is a real headscratcher though. I can't explain that one much at all. Deron is also an odd choice, considering his injury issues and not being all that great a leader.

This is wrong, as it's highly debatable. I have trouble deciding which one I prefer, and my Philly bias makes me lean towards UpChuck. And it's not as if Barkley was a total liability on defense.

He could turn it on when he wanted to. You don't average 2.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in a season by not playing any defense.

In 3 separate seasons he had 100 steals and 100 blocks. That's something not even Kobe and LeBron have never done. And it's only been done 23 other times by 25+ game scorers

So to say "no defense" is something of an exaggeration. He made defensive plays.

And if you ask Bill Walton:

"He plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."

Yep. Chuck wasn't as bad defensively as his narrative suggests and KG wasn't as great defensively as his suggests. Sometimes these narratives get developed early and they stick even if the visual or statistical evidence suggests otherwise (ie Michael Jordan had no jumper early in his career or only developed a post game during his second three peat). Total myths that somehow survive.

You're specifically right about Barkley, generally right about narratives and myths, but specifically wrong about KG.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Garnett has one ring. That puts him over West and Oscar (who have one ring apiece) and ahead of Havlicek who has eight? Garnett is not in front of Moses, (who has a ring) Barkley or Karl Malone (who do not). Barkley and Malone lost three finals to MJ. If KG and his Celts played those Bulls teams he'd be ringless too. Also, Deron is in no way better than Dennis Johnson, who was a premier defensive guard and clutch player (game winning jumper in game 4 of the '85 Finals in LA and game winning layup off of Bird's steal of Isiah's inbounds pass in the '87 ECF) not to mention winning three rings with two different teams. My two cents.

I personally think that Oscar was a better player than KG, but I find it striking how you don't penalize Oscar for never doing anything as the man, only getting his ring when he had Kareem to play with, while constantly ragging on KG's time in Minnisota. Oscar made two conference finals, but also got bounced in the first round 4 times, and missed the playoffs entirely another 4 times before he was traded to Milwaukee.

Also, I think it's pretty obvious that the list does not go exclusively by ring count. It's simply something that goes into a person's perception. With Chuck, he wouldn't be penalized as much for not winning a ring if he didn't show up at the start of the season overweight or waste nights out drinking and show up to the game still brutally hung over.

Hondo doesn't get much love for having 8 rings because he got 6 of them when Russel was there. Which is pretty reasonable IMO. I think if you could plug in a number of guys into Russel's Celtics and he'd lead them to victory. Great player, could do with a higher rating.

I don't know why you're continuing to bitch about Deron, no one is disagreeing with you. We're frankly a bit sick of you constantly attacking anyone who played after 1990 as being overrated too. Especially when you're just **** and not actually writing some insightful critique.

Huh? I'm not attacking anyone on this thread, just voicing my opinion. You find it striking that I don't penalize Oscar? I do penalize Oscar....and West. I didn't know I had to defend every player I put in front of KG in exacting detail. Also, Hondo won 8 rings, 6 with Russell but 2 without ('74-'76), more than KG either way. As far as overrating players post 1990, it's actually quite simple. Most of the posters here only overrate players post 1990 and underrate players pre 1990. Believe me, if I saw a GOAT list with Rick Barry at #10 or Elgin Baylor at #8 I'd be accusing those players of being overrated as well. However, that never happens. It's always KG at #10 and so forth. Moreover, just because you disagree with my critique doesn't mean it's not insightful.

[Grandpa Waiters]

This is wrong, as it's highly debatable. I have trouble deciding which one I prefer, and my Philly bias makes me lean towards UpChuck. And it's not as if Barkley was a total liability on defense.

He could turn it on when he wanted to. You don't average 2.2 steals and 1.6 blocks in a season by not playing any defense.

In 3 separate seasons he had 100 steals and 100 blocks. That's something not even Kobe and LeBron have never done. And it's only been done 23 other times by 25+ game scorers

So to say "no defense" is something of an exaggeration. He made defensive plays.

And if you ask Bill Walton:

"He plays everything; he plays basketball. There is nobody who does what Barkley does. He's a dominant rebounder, a dominant defensive player, a three-point shooter, a dribbler, a playmaker."

Yep. Chuck wasn't as bad defensively as his narrative suggests and KG wasn't as great defensively as his suggests. Sometimes these narratives get developed early and they stick even if the visual or statistical evidence suggests otherwise (ie Michael Jordan had no jumper early in his career or only developed a post game during his second three peat). Total myths that somehow survive.

You're specifically right about Barkley, generally right about narratives and myths, but specifically wrong about KG.

I always felt KG was overrated defensively. Mutombo, Zo, Hakeem and prime David caused more havoc than KG ever did but his narrative (on RealGM at least) persists.

[wigglestrue]

I always felt KG was overrated defensively. Mutombo, Zo, Hakeem and prime David caused more havoc than KG ever did but his narrative (on RealGM at least) persists.

I like the idea of taking measure of havoc. Havoc Wreaked Per Possession, lol. But really, I know what you mean. Thing is, KG wreaked a lot of his havoc in subtler ways, his defensive value is not so much as a conspicuous swatsman or a daring ballhawk but is also and maybe more so a type of cerebral + max effort great defender like Bowen or Cooper, the kind of defense that is best perceived by the eye of an advanced scout or captured in a complicated metric.

[Notanoob]

Huh? I'm not attacking anyone on this thread, just voicing my opinion. You find it striking that I don't penalize Oscar? I do penalize Oscar....and West. I didn't know I had to defend every player I put in front of KG in exacting detail. Also, Hondo won 8 rings, 6 with Russell but 2 without ('74-'76), more than KG either way. As far as overrating players post 1990, it's actually quite simple. Most of the posters here only overrate players post 1990 and underrate players pre 1990. Believe me, if I saw a GOAT list with Rick Barry at #10 or Elgin Baylor at #8 I'd be accusing those players of being overrated as well. However, that never happens. It's always KG at #10 and so forth. Moreover, just because you disagree with my critique doesn't mean it's not insightful.

I didn't say you were attacking anyone in the thread, just players. And you do. You're incessant and overzealous about it and it's nauseating. Just because there's a recency bias doesn't mean you need to talk down to everyone like they're kids who just started watching basketball yesterday and learned everything they know off of basketball-reference.

I know how many rings Hondo won, you might notice that I said he won 8 rings but 6 came with Russel.

And in this thread in particular at least, you haven't exactly been writing detailed dissertations.

Very few people have KG at 10. Just like I don't see a lot of people saying that Jordan didn't have a jumper or whatever until his second threepeat, and certainly not on this board. Those are simply over-exaggerations.

The thing is, whenever KG is mentioned you magically appear to tell everyone that he didn't do jack as the man in Minnesota, but I don't recall ever seeing you attack Oscar in the same way. It's a double standard simply because Oscar is older, and it's nuts.

[Grandpa Waiters]

Huh? I'm not attacking anyone on this thread, just voicing my opinion. You find it striking that I don't penalize Oscar? I do penalize Oscar....and West. I didn't know I had to defend every player I put in front of KG in exacting detail. Also, Hondo won 8 rings, 6 with Russell but 2 without ('74-'76), more than KG either way. As far as overrating players post 1990, it's actually quite simple. Most of the posters here only overrate players post 1990 and underrate players pre 1990. Believe me, if I saw a GOAT list with Rick Barry at #10 or Elgin Baylor at #8 I'd be accusing those players of being overrated as well. However, that never happens. It's always KG at #10 and so forth. Moreover, just because you disagree with my critique doesn't mean it's not insightful.

I didn't say you were attacking anyone in the thread, just players. And you do. You're incessant and overzealous about it and it's nauseating. Just because there's a recency bias doesn't mean you need to talk down to everyone like they're kids who just started watching basketball yesterday and learned everything they know off of basketball-reference.

I know how many rings Hondo won, you might notice that I said he won 8 rings but 6 came with Russel.

And in this thread in particular at least, you haven't exactly been writing detailed dissertations.

Very few people have KG at 10. Just like I don't see a lot of people saying that Jordan didn't have a jumper or whatever until his second threepeat, and certainly not on this board. Those are simply over-exaggerations.

The thing is, whenever KG is mentioned you magically appear to tell everyone that he didn't do jack as the man in Minnesota, but I don't recall ever seeing you attack Oscar in the same way. It's a double standard simply because Oscar is older, and it's nuts.

I'm incessant and over zealous and it's nauseating? Seriously? I'm passionate and enthusiastic about my opinion if anything. However, there are too many tragedies in the real world for you too feel nauseated about some strangers opinion on an internet forum. As far as writing detailed dissertations, I never realized I was working on my doctorate....I thought we were all engaging in a lively debate about bball. My opinion is as valid (or invalid) as anyone else's. Also, I never attack Oscar because I never see any threads greatly overrating him. No double standard.

[Drummer Boy]

Garnett has one ring. That puts him over West and Oscar (who have one ring apiece) and ahead of Havlicek who has eight? Garnett is not in front of Moses, (who has a ring) Barkley or Karl Malone (who do not). Barkley and Malone lost three finals to MJ. If KG and his Celts played those Bulls teams he'd be ringless too. Also, Deron is in no way better than Dennis Johnson, who was a premier defensive guard and clutch player (game winning jumper in game 4 of the '85 Finals in LA and game winning layup off of Bird's steal of Isiah's inbounds pass in the '87 ECF) not to mention winning three rings with two different teams. My two cents.

With Chuck, he wouldn't be penalized as much for not winning a ring if he didn't show up at the start of the season overweight or waste nights out drinking and show up to the game still brutally hung over.

Not to mention getting pulled over for a DUI, and asking a cop to let him go 'cause this girl was about to **** him

[Notanoob]

I'm incessant and over zealous and it's nauseating? Seriously? I'm passionate and enthusiastic about my opinion if anything. However, there are too many tragedies in the real world for you too feel nauseated about some strangers opinion on an internet forum. As far as writing detailed dissertations, I never realized I was working on my doctorate....I thought we were all engaging in a lively debate about bball. My opinion is as valid (or invalid) as anyone else's. Also, I never attack Oscar because I never see any threads greatly overrating him. No double standard.

Let me try again being less of a jerk. You come off badly in your posts, regardless of your actual intentions. I personally have a mental picture of you as some 60 year old in suspenders muttering "Idiots! I'm surrounded by idiots!" every time he goes on RealGM. The way you laugh off consensus things like KG being a top 25-ish player make you look like some 9/11 truther-a bit crazy. That's just the vibe I'm getting, I guess.

In addition, it does little to help persuade people. The best way is to find as much common ground as possible, so people feel like you're on their side and immediately become more receptive. I think it's vital to arguing, really, even if you have to lie a bit to find sufficient common ground.

And bringing up real world tragedies? Really? I said I was nauseated, not that you should be put on trial for crimes against humanity. C'mon now. You don't feel nauseated about tragedies, you feel some combination of sadness, pity, and hatred towards the relevant parties. Feeling nauseated is the perfect term for this sort of debate, only better fit for it would be if I had ate something bad and was ready to puke.

And yes, dissertations. When you go look at the most prolific and well respected posters on here, you could compile what they post into books and sell it. That's the sort of thought provoking stuff that changes peoples' minds. We aren't at some sports bar here. Even if it's just an internet forum, I'm here because I get to read these sorts of posts.

If you do penalize Oscar for not winning in the postseason, then I think you should not mention him as being underrated relative to KG when your primary grip seems to be his own failure in the postseason. It isn't necessarily inconsistent, but it certainly has the feel of being inconsistent.

[Grandpa Waiters]

I'm incessant and over zealous and it's nauseating? Seriously? I'm passionate and enthusiastic about my opinion if anything. However, there are too many tragedies in the real world for you too feel nauseated about some strangers opinion on an internet forum. As far as writing detailed dissertations, I never realized I was working on my doctorate....I thought we were all engaging in a lively debate about bball. My opinion is as valid (or invalid) as anyone else's. Also, I never attack Oscar because I never see any threads greatly overrating him. No double standard.

Let me try again being less of a jerk. You come off badly in your posts, regardless of your actual intentions. I personally have a mental picture of you as some 60 year old in suspenders muttering "Idiots! I'm surrounded by idiots!" every time he goes on RealGM. The way you laugh off consensus things like KG being a top 25-ish player make you look like some 9/11 truther-a bit crazy. That's just the vibe I'm getting, I guess.

In addition, it does little to help persuade people. The best way is to find as much common ground as possible, so people feel like you're on their side and immediately become more receptive. I think it's vital to arguing, really, even if you have to lie a bit to find sufficient common ground.

And bringing up real world tragedies? Really? I said I was nauseated, not that you should be put on trial for crimes against humanity. C'mon now. You don't feel nauseated about tragedies, you feel some combination of sadness, pity, and hatred towards the relevant parties. Feeling nauseated is the perfect term for this sort of debate, only better fit for it would be if I had ate something bad and was ready to puke.

And yes, dissertations. When you go look at the most prolific and well respected posters on here, you could compile what they post into books and sell it. That's the sort of thought provoking stuff that changes peoples' minds. We aren't at some sports bar here. Even if it's just an internet forum, I'm here because I get to read these sorts of posts.

If you do penalize Oscar for not winning in the postseason, then I think you should not mention him as being underrated relative to KG when your primary grip seems to be his own failure in the postseason. It isn't necessarily inconsistent, but it certainly has the feel of being inconsistent.

Your image of me is way off. I'm not even 40 years old let alone 60. As far as concensus or popular opinion goes, who cares. The concensus 500 years ago was that the world was flat. That didn't make it true. If the concensus here was that Kevin Garnett was a top 3 player of all time would you just go along with that? Of course not and neither would I. Only difference is I don't think he's top 30 either. Also, if you want to post dissertations or 400 page tomes, go for it. That's not why I'm here. I like to chime in, offer my opinion and get out. You should appreciate the opinion of someone who's been around the block a little longer than most on here. They can offer a perspective on players that played before their time in a way that YouTube, ESPN Classic and Basketball Reference (stats) cannot. My two pennies.