Jordan23Forever wrote:Bucksfans1and2 wrote:What do you say about Lebron's dominating performances in Cleveland when he wasn't surrounded by shooters all the time?
Why on earth would you assume Jordan would have average 40 on 55% shooting if he was forced into taking long 2's? What year of Jordan are we discussing because the guy couldn't hit a 3 before he left.
A few things:
1) Lebron absolutely was surrounded by shooters in Cleveland - at least compared to Jordan. It wasn't to the same extent, in terms of the amount of said shooters or their caliber, that he has this season in Miami, but he was certainly surrounded by a bevy of shooters. In fact, that was basically the entire Cleveland offense for many years: Lebron as quasi-PG, dribbling around and either scoring in the lane or kicking it to a shooter for an assist.
2) Lebron was dominant and all-time level in Cleveland, but it is only this past season, 2013, when people started making outlandish claims like "he's better than Jordan" and "he's as good a scorer as Jordan", and these claims were largely bolstered by his excellent efficiency this season (56% FG/64% TS). That efficiency is due to a confluence of factors which came together perfectly for him; the largest component of it is the extreme spacing afforded him by his team composition.
3) Jordan was one of the best midrange shooters of all time already by 1990, never mind '92 or '93. Couldn't hit a 3 before he left? Shows how much you know - MJ shot 38% from deep in 1990 on three 3FGA/gm and 36% in '93 on nearly three 3FGA/gm. He also shot 38.5+% from deep in the '91-'93 postseasons, including nearly 40% from downtown in the '93 playoffs on four 3FGA/gm. Regardless, '90-'93 Jordan would have knocked down 16-22 footers ALL DAY if he was given the space SA gave Lebron and dared to shoot (as opposed to being defended how he usually was and taking those shots). This is not even up for debate, and the fact that you would even question this calls your credibility into question.
Rasho Libre wrote:Sorry sideshow you're amazing thread has turned into absolute turd with all the Kobe and Jordan fans now in it.
More like these Lebron fans apparently can't deal with any dissenting opinion. This thread was an unabashed love fest for 40 pages, and they went into meltdown and obfuscation mode when I posted the cold hard FACTS regarding Lebron's multiple disappearing acts this Finals.
Has any player's efficiency ever dropped from the RS to PS in an extended playoff run as much as Lebron's did this year? He was down nearly -7.5% FG and -5.5% TS. Not shocking to those of us who have eyes to see that his stellar efficiency during the RS was, in good part, smoke and mirrors.
1. You say things like "anybody with eyes" but then you don't acknowledge the difference between when Jordan and Lebron were playing. Compared to the current era, nobody back then was surrounded by shooters. It's a much different game, guys were more mid range jumper oriented than they were three point oriented. It's been beaten to death in this thread how defenses have changed. They were more physical, but they were less disciplined. There wasn't such a need to spread the floor because the help schemes weren't nearly as sharp at doubling on the drive back in those days.
In Lebron's 7 years with the Cavs, his teams have only finished above the league average in 3pt% twice. For much of Lebron's Cleveland career, his teams were pretty poor at knocking down 3s. Compared to Jordan's first seven years in the league where his team was above average three times. If anything Jordan's spacing was superior to Lebron's relative to the league that they were playing in.
Additionally, why is it a bad thing to be complimented most by shooters? Shooters are relatively cheap. A star, a rim defender and thee 3andD guys is pretty much how teams are built now a days.
2. What you say is true of course. He did have one good season (two technically) from deep but his average over his first ten seasons was a woeful 30% and his first 5 years in the league he didn't even break 30% once. He couldn't hit water if he fell out of the boat, if the boat was behind the 3 point arc in his first few years.
3. You say it's not up for debate that Jordan would have consistently knocked down 16-22 footers. I believe that it's very much up for debate. That's the worst shot to take in basketball, and Jordan's forte was definitely getting to the basket rather than spotting up. My credibility is called into question when I express skepticism that a player would average 40 points on 55% shooting against one of the best defenses in the league. Alright
4. Considering the defenses that the Heat played, it doesn't surprise me that Lebron's scoring efficiency fell. Every defense that he played in the playoffs was good to great (The Bucks starting defense when Sanders in is a very good unit. The bench lineups kind of suck ass, but Lebron played against starters.)
5. You know who had a similarly terrible drop in TS% when he got into the playoffs and started playing against good defenses? Michael Jordan in 97 when he went from 57% TS to 52% TS because he played defenses ranked 1, 9, 3, and 11. Efficiency falls when players stop playing against a balanced schedule and get hammered with elite defensive teams. That you ignore this just points to your bias. Was Jordan's dominance in that season smoke and mirrors?
