'17-'18 POY discussion

[therealbig3]

LeBron didn't want to trade Kyrie, the cavs traded him anyway. Yet you want to blame LeBron for Kyrie getting traded.

LeBron didn't hurt IT's hip.

LeBron didn't break Love's hand

LeBron didn't tear Love's ligament

LeBron didn't elbow Hill in the back

LeBron didn't cause Nance to have hamstring issues most of the time he's been here

LeBron didn't hurt Korver's foot.

Yesterday's starting lineup was the 33rd different starting lineup the Cavs have had all season. The Cavs game 1 starting lineup played their first game together in game 1. Not just the first game they started together, the first game all 5 players were available the same game.

Kyrie asked to be traded dude. That is on LeBron because LeBron IS the context that Kyrie sought to leave. It is on LeBron that his best teammate chose to play with not-LeBron.

This is the fundamental problem here. You want to say that other guys are lucky that they have better teammates, but those guys chose to play together because in general guys like playing with other great players.

And the situation in LeBron-land instead is driving his #2 away, diminishing his #3, letting a locker room go toxic, all while the team pays tons of money to guys other than LeBron.

Am I saying only LeBron deserves blame? No. It’s just that he’s the one this discussion coalesced around because he’s the one worthy of discussion in a POY thread, and so as we analyze him, his role in these shenanigans simply has to be discussed if we are to understand the whole picture.

I’ve had a variety of LeBron discussions lately wherein people just refuse to acknowledge the reality of LeBron’s role in making a flawed team culture. We can disagree on how to weigh these things, but I find it exasperating instead try to score points as if in rebuttal to the existence of a glaringly true fact.




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Kyrie left because he wanted to be the main player, which clearly wasn't going to happen playing with the best player on the planet. CP3 went to Houston before Kyrie left. It's assuming a lot to conclude CP3 wouldn't rather play with LeBron over Harden if the Cavs didn't already have an all star PG at the time. Kyrie couldn't have picked a worst time to make his trade request, CP3, Butler and George were all traded before Kyrie requested a treade. I'm sure all 3 teams would have taken Kyrie in a trade.

And even after Kyrie requested the trade, LeBron wanted the team to keep him, but you claim LeBron is behind all of the Cavs moves. Clearly that's not the case.

Kyrie didn’t want to play with LeBron. When discussing his supporting cast, all I keep hearing is “they really need a second creator next to LeBron...like Kyrie”. Well, Kyrie left because he didn’t want to play with LeBron anymore.

How is that not a relevant issue to discuss when talking about LeBron’s supporting cast not stepping up? It’s partially his fault that they suck.

[INKtastic]

Kyrie asked to be traded dude. That is on LeBron because LeBron IS the context that Kyrie sought to leave. It is on LeBron that his best teammate chose to play with not-LeBron.

This is the fundamental problem here. You want to say that other guys are lucky that they have better teammates, but those guys chose to play together because in general guys like playing with other great players.

And the situation in LeBron-land instead is driving his #2 away, diminishing his #3, letting a locker room go toxic, all while the team pays tons of money to guys other than LeBron.

Am I saying only LeBron deserves blame? No. It’s just that he’s the one this discussion coalesced around because he’s the one worthy of discussion in a POY thread, and so as we analyze him, his role in these shenanigans simply has to be discussed if we are to understand the whole picture.

I’ve had a variety of LeBron discussions lately wherein people just refuse to acknowledge the reality of LeBron’s role in making a flawed team culture. We can disagree on how to weigh these things, but I find it exasperating instead try to score points as if in rebuttal to the existence of a glaringly true fact.




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Kyrie left because he wanted to be the main player, which clearly wasn't going to happen playing with the best player on the planet. CP3 went to Houston before Kyrie left. It's assuming a lot to conclude CP3 wouldn't rather play with LeBron over Harden if the Cavs didn't already have an all star PG at the time. Kyrie couldn't have picked a worst time to make his trade request, CP3, Butler and George were all traded before Kyrie requested a treade. I'm sure all 3 teams would have taken Kyrie in a trade.

And even after Kyrie requested the trade, LeBron wanted the team to keep him, but you claim LeBron is behind all of the Cavs moves. Clearly that's not the case.

Kyrie didn’t want to play with LeBron. When discussing his supporting cast, all I keep hearing is “they really need a second creator next to LeBron...like Kyrie”. Well, Kyrie left because he didn’t want to play with LeBron anymore.

How is that not a relevant issue to discuss when talking about LeBron’s supporting cast not stepping up? It’s partially his fault that they suck.

How is it LeBron's fault that as a young player, Kyrie wanted to play on a team where he was the best player on the team? LeBron gets blamed for being the best player on the planet?

[RSCD3_]

Toronto is going to become the 6th 1 seed to lose to an 8th seed.

I never took this team seriously and I think I'm going to be vindicated now. This was a team with maybe the worst top 2 of a team actually called a "contender" ever. Wall/Beal are definitely superior players to Lowry/DeRozan.

Toronto is a meme team, I don't know why anyone thought they'd be able to make noise.

I think theyll lose in the second round but the wizards while healthy wouldnt be an 8th team and might have edged out the cavs and pacers for the 3 seed. Wall is clearly the best player here despite how some love lowry for his spacing effect

[NinjaSheppard]

LeBron James clearly has a plan

1. Go to a promising team with talent and assets
2. Maximize those two things to create the best short term contention team (even if that means trading two firsts for Mozgov)
3. Cut cord when it is clear that the team isn't a contender anymore
4. Get credit for what you have done to help the team compete and also look good because the narrative is that the team without you has fallen apart. LeBron is gone by the time the team falls apart so no one blames him for that.


Through sheer circumstance though the team fell apart a year before he could leave and he is now suffering from it. I don't want to blame him for the Kyrie situation because Kyrie is an ambitious person who like Harden wanted to prove he could do it as the best player. However, all the bad short terms moves the Cavs have made and the contracts that have been given out are his fault.

[ardee]

Toronto is going to become the 6th 1 seed to lose to an 8th seed.

I never took this team seriously and I think I'm going to be vindicated now. This was a team with maybe the worst top 2 of a team actually called a "contender" ever. Wall/Beal are definitely superior players to Lowry/DeRozan.

Toronto is a meme team, I don't know why anyone thought they'd be able to make noise.

I think theyll lose in the second round but the wizards while healthy wouldnt be an 8th team and might have edged out the cavs and pacers for the 3 seed. Wall is clearly the best player here despite how some love lowry for his spacing effect

Both Lowry and DeRozan are so overrated. I don't think either of them are even top 20 players in the league.

[NinjaSheppard]

Raptors will win this series. They are a different team at home and they probably should have won game 4.

I expect them to close it in 6.

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron didn't want to trade Kyrie, the cavs traded him anyway. Yet you want to blame LeBron for Kyrie getting traded.

LeBron didn't hurt IT's hip.

LeBron didn't break Love's hand

LeBron didn't tear Love's ligament

LeBron didn't elbow Hill in the back

LeBron didn't cause Nance to have hamstring issues most of the time he's been here

LeBron didn't hurt Korver's foot.

Yesterday's starting lineup was the 33rd different starting lineup the Cavs have had all season. The Cavs game 1 starting lineup played their first game together in game 1. Not just the first game they started together, the first game all 5 players were available the same game.

Kyrie asked to be traded dude. That is on LeBron because LeBron IS the context that Kyrie sought to leave. It is on LeBron that his best teammate chose to play with not-LeBron.

This is the fundamental problem here. You want to say that other guys are lucky that they have better teammates, but those guys chose to play together because in general guys like playing with other great players.

And the situation in LeBron-land instead is driving his #2 away, diminishing his #3, letting a locker room go toxic, all while the team pays tons of money to guys other than LeBron.

Am I saying only LeBron deserves blame? No. It’s just that he’s the one this discussion coalesced around because he’s the one worthy of discussion in a POY thread, and so as we analyze him, his role in these shenanigans simply has to be discussed if we are to understand the whole picture.

I’ve had a variety of LeBron discussions lately wherein people just refuse to acknowledge the reality of LeBron’s role in making a flawed team culture. We can disagree on how to weigh these things, but I find it exasperating instead try to score points as if in rebuttal to the existence of a glaringly true fact.




Sent from my iPhone using RealGM mobile app

Kyrie left because he wanted to be the main player, which clearly wasn't going to happen playing with the best player on the planet. CP3 went to Houston before Kyrie left. It's assuming a lot to conclude CP3 wouldn't rather play with LeBron over Harden if the Cavs didn't already have an all star PG at the time. Kyrie couldn't have picked a worst time to make his trade request, CP3, Butler and George were all traded before Kyrie requested a treade. I'm sure all 3 teams would have taken Kyrie in a trade.

And even after Kyrie requested the trade, LeBron wanted the team to keep him, but you claim LeBron is behind all of the Cavs moves. Clearly that's not the case.

Kyrie wanted to be the main player when LeBron decided to come to Cleveland. It was LeBron's job, it LeBron wanted to play with Kyrie, to find a way to make Kyrie like playing together. He failed.

CP3 wen to Houston to play with Harden in D'Antoni's offense. He chose to go some place with an identity other than the star player, whereas in Cleveland there basically isn't a scheme other than "Let LeBron do his thing when he's on the court, and then hang on."

As I say that, do I think Paul might have wanted to play with LeBron if it had been more of an option? Could be. It's moot because LeBron had his co-star, and he made his co-star want to leave.

Re: Kyrie couldn't have picked a worse time. By "time" here, you mean after Cleveland had started seriously looking to make any trade possible to placate LeBron because LeBron hadn't said "Do what you need to, but Kyrie stays. He's my co-star, and if you trade him, I'm gone." Things came at a head with Kyrie when they did because things were coming to a head with LeBron and the Cavs.

Now as I say this, I'm not going to pretend the Kyrie relationship was an easy one to get right, and logically it makes sense to shop Kyrie and see if you can do better. It's just that pragmatically speaking, you're playing with fire when you do this as the Cavs, and as LeBron, you have to KNOW this or you deserve to be criticized for the outcome.

Re: LeBron behind the moves. I'm saying he's the cause whether or not he realizes it, and in fact the main thrust of what I'm saying is that LeBron's failure is a failure to understand realize how his actions affect the emotions of the people he's wanting to depend on.

I'm saying LeBron blew it with Kyrie because of leadership approach, and whatever the degree of difficulty was there, LeBron chose to be tied to Kyrie, and then LeBron's preferences/choices/whatever on and off the court left LeBron in a position where he lost Kyrie and got nothing comparable as a teammate in return.

Now, what if someone like CP3 chooses to come play with LeBron in Cleveland next year and they win a title? Well, then they win a title and LeBron likely wins my POY. I've never held a "ranking grudge" against LeBron for all the pettiness that has surrounded him since his return to Cleveland...but to the extent the team falls well short of that, well, they fall short.

[Doctor MJ]

How is it LeBron's fault that as a young player, Kyrie wanted to play on a team where he was the best player on the team? LeBron gets blamed for being the best player on the planet?

In any walk of life, if the alpha leader makes his beta leaders want to leave, that says some major about the alphas limitations.

Want to blame the beta too? Cool. I stand in presumed solidarity with you when I don't consider Kyrie a candidate for the POY Top 5.

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron James clearly has a plan

1. Go to a promising team with talent and assets
2. Maximize those two things to create the best short term contention team (even if that means trading two firsts for Mozgov)
3. Cut cord when it is clear that the team isn't a contender anymore
4. Get credit for what you have done to help the team compete and also look good because the narrative is that the team without you has fallen apart. LeBron is gone by the time the team falls apart so no one blames him for that.


Through sheer circumstance though the team fell apart a year before he could leave and he is now suffering from it. I don't want to blame him for the Kyrie situation because Kyrie is an ambitious person who like Harden wanted to prove he could do it as the best player. However, all the bad short terms moves the Cavs have made and the contracts that have been given out are his fault.

Rather vampiric.

[Dr Spaceman]

The Jazz are scary good.

This has the potential to be the GOAT semifinals in the Western Conference. I would not be confident in either of the top two seeds against their respective matchups. Not to say I expect a UTA/NOP conference finals, but if either team made it there I really wouldn’t be shocked. After the performance this playoffs I think we could have a serious discussion about Utah as one of the GOAT defensive teams.

[Dr Spaceman]

Also; if you were to only judge based on the playoffs, where would ben Simmons rank league-wide? I mean I think he’s clearly been top 10, maybe higher than that.

[Peregrine01]

The Jazz are scary good.

This has the potential to be the GOAT semifinals in the Western Conference. I would not be confident in either of the top two seeds against their respective matchups. Not to say I expect a UTA/NOP conference finals, but if either team made it there I really wouldn’t be shocked. After the performance this playoffs I think we could have a serious discussion about Utah as one of the GOAT defensive teams.

Not only their defense, but their offense has looked incredible too. The ball moves freely and Rubio just has tremendous vision. Ingles has got to be a plus minus savant as well. Those two play so well off each other. One weakness they do have is when both of them are off the floor. Though Snyder has clearly staggered their minutes.

[bondom34]

I knew they were good, and OKC was not. They've been as advertised, thought they may have been a good matchup for OKC, but nope. Better coached and a team. OKC's just a wreck and Westbrook's worst since 2010. He's just not the same player. George isn't a lead guy either. But I can't wait for their season to be over.

[therealbig3]

Yeah, this pretty much does it for Westbrook's top 5 candidacy.

That might pretty much solidify a top 5 of Harden, Davis, Giannis, Oladipo, and LeBron for me.

[ardee]

Also; if you were to only judge based on the playoffs, where would ben Simmons rank league-wide? I mean I think he’s clearly been top 10, maybe higher than that.

Playoffs only, the contenders for top 10 in no particular order, would be LeBron, Wall, Davis, Jrue, Gobert, Durant, and Giannis. Just realized that's only 8, so Simmons actually should definitely be in there, with only Davis and LeBron a level above everyone else.

Harden's putrid game 2 and meh game 3 have him down overall, I wouldn't put him in this category yet even after tonight. Draymond's overall effort level seems to be up but his miserable efficiency keeps him out, he still isn't at '16 or '17 all-around wrecking ball level to make up for that.

I didn't think it could happen but Harden's no.1 spot could be under threat from both LeBron and Davis depending on how the Playoffs go from here on out.

[ardee]

Yeah, this pretty much does it for Westbrook's top 5 candidacy.

That might pretty much solidify a top 5 of Harden, Davis, Giannis, Oladipo, and LeBron for me.

I would've replaced Lillard in my top 5 with 'Dipo after his noshow but it's not like Victor is lighting the world on fire either...

[eminence]

Probably my top 5 as of now as well (weak year at the top though). But very very up in the air with what to do with the Warriors if they do what I expect (steamroll to the title after Curry returns in round 2). CP3 would probably make it on if the Rockets get the job done.

[GSP]

Raptors will win this series. They are a different team at home and they probably should have won game 4.

I expect them to close it in 6.

if they blow this series specially after Beal who was the best player on the court in game 4 got fouled out, and they proceeded to get outscored the rest of the game, theyd have to be in the running for Woat playoff run/team. Which is weird to say since they made the Ecf but they limped their way there in one of the most warn torn paths u could have (2 game 7s against mediocre teams).

Despite impact stats i wouldnt be able to take Lowry seriously as a top 20 candidate either. Not just this season but in any season of his past

[Statlanta]

This is the worst POY race in quite awhile

[Dr Spaceman]

This is the worst POY race in quite awhile

The flip side is that this has been the best first round in quite a while and the second round looks like it will be even better.