2021-22 NBA Season Discussion

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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#881 » by parsnips33 » Thu Jan 6, 2022 6:02 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:Curry's scoring diversity seems to have taken a significant dive this year.

66% (!!!) of his shots have come from 3 this year, by far a career high. Last year it was 59%, and his career high before this year was 60% in 2019. Obviously this means a career low attempts from 2pt range.

13% of his shots at the rim, lowest since 2013, and only shooting 59% on them, close to a career low and lowest since 2013.

He's essentially relying just on the 3 to score this year, and he's Steph Curry so it still works but some signs of decline here imo. He really needs Klay to come back to carry some of the scoring load.


So, I think this is certainly what we expect with age and thus I expect you're pointing to a real trend...but we are also talking about the Warriors being dramatically better offensively this year compared to last year. As such, I'd urge caution in interpreting Curry's numbers as if the only cause here is Curry getting older.

Consider the TS Add of the Warriors the past two years:

'20-21: +164.1 in 72 games
'21-22: +190.2 in 34 games

That's a dramatic improvement, and so practically speaking it's not the case that the Warriors are struggling to get good shots this year.

Is Curry's supporting cast more effective this year? Absolutely, and those players deserve credit for this...but they are doing this in a Curry-defined environment. We don't just "know" this because of reputation, Curry's +/- lead over the rest of the team is more dramatic than we've ever seen before:

'21-22: Curry +375, 2nd Place +188 (Green)
'20-21: Curry +242, 2nd Place +241 (Green)
'19-20: injured
'18-19: Curry +690, 2nd Place +660 (Durant)
'17-18: Curry +483, 2nd Place +397 (Thompson)
'16-17: Curry +1013, 2nd Place +820 (Green)
'15-16: Green +1071, 2nd Place +1022 (Curry)
'14-15: Curry +921, 2nd Palce +833 (Green)

Now, all typical caveats about raw +/- being overly simplistic and much depending on who each guy is playing with. Kerr used to be known for playing Curry & Green together as much as possible, now that's not the case.

But I think we're seeing quite clearly is that the Warriors are a more effective scoring team than last year on the back of the entire team basically being able to take advantage of Curry's gravity as a matter of course.

None of this is to say that Klay won't help, because if nothing else, Klay gives you the possibility of having a closer Curry-approximation when Curry's on the bench, but as a team, the story of this season is most definitely not of the Warrior offense sputtering.

The story continues to be how freakishly good the Warriors are able to play when they can rely on Curry dominating the defense's attention, and how differently the Warrior scheme works than basically any other in the league.


I'm not quite sure what TS added is, but the general gist of this argument to me seems to amount to the old gravity argument and Steph never being able to have a bad game.

He's shooting 39/36/89 over his last 20 games and the Warriors' offense ranks 15th during that time, similar to the Pelicans, Lakers and Nuggets, so I don't really see how the offense can be the story of the season for them.

In my opinion, the story of the season for the Warriors is their defense and Draymond's resurgence. Curry has been playing awful, below All NBA level basketball for the past month and half, yet they're still winning games based off their defense.



Not trying to argue anything either way, but do we think it's likely that other teams could have their best offensive player shoot such putrid percentages and still have a middle of the pack offense?

Watching the games, it's clear that Steph still has an outsize effect on opposing defenses even in this slump. Are the Warriors losing winnable games because of the slump? Absolutely. But I think there's something to be said for Steph's offensive impact being fairly resilient even when his scoring is not
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#882 » by eminence » Thu Jan 6, 2022 6:53 pm

Some basic stats for Steph and other guys who might get mentioned in MVP/All-NBA talks from Dec 1 to now. Sorted by net rating.

Stephen Curry: 25.5 ppg @ 54.6 TS%, 5.3 apg, 4.9 rpg, +10.3 On (/100), -8.7 Off, +19.0 On/Off
Rudy Gobert: 16.0 ppg @ 71.1 TS%, 1.2 apg, 15.8 rpg, +16.4 On, -1.5 Off, +17.9 On/Off
Nikola Jokic: 25.3 ppg @ 60.8 TS%, 7.6 apg, 14.6 rpg, +5.1 On, -12.8 Off, +17.9 On/Off
LeBron James: 30.4 ppg @ 64.9 TS%, 6.3 apg, 8.9 rpg, +4.1 On, -11.7 Off, +15.8 On/Off
DeMar DeRozan: 29.1 ppg @ 57.5 TS%, 5.2 apg, 4.6 rpg, +9.0 On, -6.7 Off, +15.7 On/Off
Draymond Green(for the 2nd best Warrior): 8.1 ppg @ 56.5 TS%, 7.5 apg, 7.5 rpg, +6.8 On, +2.1 Off, +4.7 On/Off
Kevin Durant: 33.1 ppg @ 58.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 8.2 rpg, +3.1 On, +0.1 Off, +3.0 On/Off
Giannis Antetokounmpo: 29.6 ppg @ 62.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 11.0 rpg, +5.6 On, +3.7 Off, +1.9 On/Off

Until teams decide this is the new Steph and want to defend him differently it truly is very very difficult for him to have a bad game. Even in that truly terrible 5/24 shooting performance vs Dallas, the Warriors went even in the 36 minutes he was on the floor and got wiped by 17 in the 12 minutes he was off.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#883 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jan 6, 2022 8:09 pm

eminence wrote:Some basic stats for Steph and other guys who might get mentioned in MVP/All-NBA talks from Dec 1 to now. Sorted by net rating.

Stephen Curry: 25.5 ppg @ 54.6 TS%, 5.3 apg, 4.9 rpg, +10.3 On (/100), -8.7 Off, +19.0 On/Off
Rudy Gobert: 16.0 ppg @ 71.1 TS%, 1.2 apg, 15.8 rpg, +16.4 On, -1.5 Off, +17.9 On/Off
Nikola Jokic: 25.3 ppg @ 60.8 TS%, 7.6 apg, 14.6 rpg, +5.1 On, -12.8 Off, +17.9 On/Off
LeBron James: 30.4 ppg @ 64.9 TS%, 6.3 apg, 8.9 rpg, +4.1 On, -11.7 Off, +15.8 On/Off
DeMar DeRozan: 29.1 ppg @ 57.5 TS%, 5.2 apg, 4.6 rpg, +9.0 On, -6.7 Off, +15.7 On/Off
Draymond Green(for the 2nd best Warrior): 8.1 ppg @ 56.5 TS%, 7.5 apg, 7.5 rpg, +6.8 On, +2.1 Off, +4.7 On/Off
Kevin Durant: 33.1 ppg @ 58.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 8.2 rpg, +3.1 On, +0.1 Off, +3.0 On/Off
Giannis Antetokounmpo: 29.6 ppg @ 62.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 11.0 rpg, +5.6 On, +3.7 Off, +1.9 On/Off

Until teams decide this is the new Steph and want to defend him differently it truly is very very difficult for him to have a bad game. Even in that truly terrible 5/24 shooting performance vs Dallas, the Warriors went even in the 36 minutes he was on the floor and got wiped by 17 in the 12 minutes he was off.


This gets to the heart of things. You could think of it as "value by reputation". If teams keep playing Curry like he's Curry, then a team that's spent years building a system and culture where other players know how to take advantage of his gravity is going to still get all that gravity value no matter how Curry shoots.

That doesn't mean that when Curry misses shots they don't count as misses of course. Clearly, when Curry's in a slump like he's been lately, he's less valuable than he was earlier in the year, it's just that it's absolutely a possibility that a slumping Curry can still add more value than everyone else due to this. Not saying that that's literally true - only that it's something we have to understand is a distinct possibility, and the struggle to understand this is at the heart of why there's such a big separation between people's opinions at the matter.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#884 » by Doctor MJ » Thu Jan 6, 2022 8:36 pm

MisterHibachi wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:
MisterHibachi wrote:Curry's scoring diversity seems to have taken a significant dive this year.

66% (!!!) of his shots have come from 3 this year, by far a career high. Last year it was 59%, and his career high before this year was 60% in 2019. Obviously this means a career low attempts from 2pt range.

13% of his shots at the rim, lowest since 2013, and only shooting 59% on them, close to a career low and lowest since 2013.

He's essentially relying just on the 3 to score this year, and he's Steph Curry so it still works but some signs of decline here imo. He really needs Klay to come back to carry some of the scoring load.


So, I think this is certainly what we expect with age and thus I expect you're pointing to a real trend...but we are also talking about the Warriors being dramatically better offensively this year compared to last year. As such, I'd urge caution in interpreting Curry's numbers as if the only cause here is Curry getting older.

Consider the TS Add of the Warriors the past two years:

'20-21: +164.1 in 72 games
'21-22: +190.2 in 34 games

That's a dramatic improvement, and so practically speaking it's not the case that the Warriors are struggling to get good shots this year.

Is Curry's supporting cast more effective this year? Absolutely, and those players deserve credit for this...but they are doing this in a Curry-defined environment. We don't just "know" this because of reputation, Curry's +/- lead over the rest of the team is more dramatic than we've ever seen before:

'21-22: Curry +375, 2nd Place +188 (Green)
'20-21: Curry +242, 2nd Place +241 (Green)
'19-20: injured
'18-19: Curry +690, 2nd Place +660 (Durant)
'17-18: Curry +483, 2nd Place +397 (Thompson)
'16-17: Curry +1013, 2nd Place +820 (Green)
'15-16: Green +1071, 2nd Place +1022 (Curry)
'14-15: Curry +921, 2nd Palce +833 (Green)

Now, all typical caveats about raw +/- being overly simplistic and much depending on who each guy is playing with. Kerr used to be known for playing Curry & Green together as much as possible, now that's not the case.

But I think we're seeing quite clearly is that the Warriors are a more effective scoring team than last year on the back of the entire team basically being able to take advantage of Curry's gravity as a matter of course.

None of this is to say that Klay won't help, because if nothing else, Klay gives you the possibility of having a closer Curry-approximation when Curry's on the bench, but as a team, the story of this season is most definitely not of the Warrior offense sputtering.

The story continues to be how freakishly good the Warriors are able to play when they can rely on Curry dominating the defense's attention, and how differently the Warrior scheme works than basically any other in the league.


I'm not quite sure what TS added is, but the general gist of this argument to me seems to amount to the old gravity argument and Steph never being able to have a bad game.

He's shooting 39/36/89 over his last 20 games and the Warriors' offense ranks 15th during that time, similar to the Pelicans, Lakers and Nuggets, so I don't really see how the offense can be the story of the season for them.

In my opinion, the story of the season for the Warriors is their defense and Draymond's resurgence. Curry has been playing awful, below All NBA level basketball for the past month and half, yet they're still winning games based off their defense.


So I want to start by emphasizing: Curry has been slumping lately, and that certainly hurts his value. I'm not trying to say it doesn't matter whether Curry hits shots or not.

What I was trying to get at though is that if the Warriors thrive uniquely when Curry is out there, it does not make sense to use the logic "Warriors win with defense, Curry's not a star defender, therefore he's not adding that much value". I'm someone who is absolutely willing to entertain the idea that, say, Draymond Green can be more valuable than Curry, but in reality, the gap between their impact has never been bigger based on the numbers we're seeing this year. The Warriors have successfully gotten more and more players to figure out how to thrive next to Curry, and that's made Green less of an on-court essential. I say that while still affirming that I consider Green to be the best defensive player in the world and that Green is adding value to the team beyond what he does on the court (as is Curry, as is Iggy, etc).

Now as I say all of that, I think it makes sense for me to do another analysis soon where I look to see how dominant the Warriors still are with Curry over time given the slump. Won't surprise me at all if he eventually ends up slipping down my MVP list because there's nothing magical protecting him there. But so long as Curry has a huge list in cumulative +/- for the season, he's going to be a strong candidate for me.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#885 » by Bad Gatorade » Fri Jan 7, 2022 1:32 am

A few notes on the Curry discussion -

In the last 20 games, the Warriors' opponents are shooting 31.08% from 3 with Curry on the court, and 40.19% from 3 with Curry off. That is a huge disparity, and one that almost certainly can't be pinpointed solely towards Curry's defensive play (or offensive load/gravity/whatever). For the entirety of the season, the diference is 30.7% with Curry on vs 37.0% with Curry off. The next highest minute player to have a negative disparity (I'm talking < 0%, never mind the -6.3% that Curry has) is Gary Payton II, 7th in minutes, with a disparity of -2.7%.

The reason why I don't buy this being Curry's influence is that the previous 7 seasons, this difference is -

2015: +0.6%
2016: -3.0%
2017: +3.3%
2018: +2.4%
2019: -2.3%
2021: +1.4%

And that 2-3% disparity is rather "normal" for an individual season, but something like 6.7% is a big difference that I'd chalk up to random variation more than anything - given that the Warriors opponents attempt 34.91 threes per 100 possessions, that's a good ~7 points per 100 possessions difference from the average, and 8-9 points further from Draymond (whose differential is +2.1 here). This alone is a huge reason as to why Curry's +/- looks like such an outlier relative to his team. Yes, he is a good defensive PG, and yes, the way he plays offence does affect how opponents approach the game. But when 3 point shooting has (repeatedly) shown to have a huge randomness component, and Steph Curry has no real discernible trend of mitigating opponent 3 point shooting, I'd hesitate on drawing too heavily on his incredibly impressive +/- numbers. Similarly, his luck adjusted RAPM overall rank of 7th is still incredibly impressive (and may very well underrate him based off offensive gravity and what not), but it's still well below the routine top 3 finishes he accumulated every season from 2015 to 2019.

I do think that it's worth considering how good a player can be with Curry's "slumping" shooting percentage. With a league average of 55.59%, with Steph having 54.74% really isn't that bad when you consider all of his auxiliary effects (being a good passer, still shooting the 3 very well, still having gravity, the fact that he shoots so many 3s possibly impacting team offensive rebounding relative to his TS%).

The thing is, if we look at ORAPM over the last 5 or so years, it's not until position 13 or so that the players in question are not above average TS% (and even then, the players in the teens are usually around average), so I do think that even if Curry is a "best case" scenario of offensive impact outside of his own (and that's an entirely reasonable take), the modern NBA game seems to place a limit on how impactful a player can be whilst not being particularly efficient himself. And it makes a lot of sense - if Curry is taking up 1/3 of scoring possessions on the Warriors and doing so at a quasi-average shooting clip, how much more offensive impact can be truly be having in the remaining 2/3 relative to the other top guys? And historically, larger RAPM samples support "efficient" players quite strongly. A "mediocre" shooting efficiency guy can still have impressive offensive impact (Iverson, prime Westbrook, Baron Davis, T-Mac) thanks to other factors such as elite passing, floor spacing, turnover reduction and so forth. But these guys have still historically paled in comparison in ORAPM compared to the guys that have these facets, whilst also being efficient shooters.

I do also think that Curry's absurd inclination toward shooting 3s does undermine his efficiency as seen by the naked eye, because seeing a box score like 8/21 makes it look like Curry had a stinker from the field, but then shooting 5/14 from 3 and 9/9 from the line still puts him in that ~60 TS% ballpark. He's definitely had a few terrible shooting games, but the remarkable volume at which he bombs from afar makes these seem more common than they really are.

Does Curry have the best "auxiliary" scoring impact? Sure - and we've had numbers showing that he has that sort of impact on his teammates. But is it so far ahead of a guy like, say, Jokic, who is clearly an elite scorer on his own accord, an elite passer and is obviously going to warp defences in his own way? Or what about Durant? Or Giannis? These guys may not be defended to the same extent/with the same style as Curry, but they're still clearly a primary focus of their opponents, and I don't know if I buy that even a grossly reduced efficiency Curry is going to topple what these guys are providing.

FWIW, I do think that Curry should be discussed in the MVP conversation as far as this season goes. He was electric at the start of the season. However, it's been a tale of two halves, and I'd argue that whilst the first part of his season is quite clearly that of an MVP level player, the second half isn't quite there. He's still been good enough over the course of the season to be in that top 5 conversation for me, but I'm struggling notably with the idea of this version of Curry persisting, and yet remaining a credible candidate for me.

Of course, hope he picks it back up and renders this stretch negligible, because a piping hot Curry is truly a basketball wonder to behold.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#886 » by TheGOATRises007 » Fri Jan 7, 2022 2:21 am

eminence wrote:Some basic stats for Steph and other guys who might get mentioned in MVP/All-NBA talks from Dec 1 to now. Sorted by net rating.

Stephen Curry: 25.5 ppg @ 54.6 TS%, 5.3 apg, 4.9 rpg, +10.3 On (/100), -8.7 Off, +19.0 On/Off
Rudy Gobert: 16.0 ppg @ 71.1 TS%, 1.2 apg, 15.8 rpg, +16.4 On, -1.5 Off, +17.9 On/Off
Nikola Jokic: 25.3 ppg @ 60.8 TS%, 7.6 apg, 14.6 rpg, +5.1 On, -12.8 Off, +17.9 On/Off
LeBron James: 30.4 ppg @ 64.9 TS%, 6.3 apg, 8.9 rpg, +4.1 On, -11.7 Off, +15.8 On/Off
DeMar DeRozan: 29.1 ppg @ 57.5 TS%, 5.2 apg, 4.6 rpg, +9.0 On, -6.7 Off, +15.7 On/Off
Draymond Green(for the 2nd best Warrior): 8.1 ppg @ 56.5 TS%, 7.5 apg, 7.5 rpg, +6.8 On, +2.1 Off, +4.7 On/Off
Kevin Durant: 33.1 ppg @ 58.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 8.2 rpg, +3.1 On, +0.1 Off, +3.0 On/Off
Giannis Antetokounmpo: 29.6 ppg @ 62.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 11.0 rpg, +5.6 On, +3.7 Off, +1.9 On/Off

Until teams decide this is the new Steph and want to defend him differently it truly is very very difficult for him to have a bad game. Even in that truly terrible 5/24 shooting performance vs Dallas, the Warriors went even in the 36 minutes he was on the floor and got wiped by 17 in the 12 minutes he was off.


Has a player ever had such a massive surge forward in on/off like DeRozan this season out of nowhere?
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#887 » by eminence » Fri Jan 7, 2022 2:28 am

Eddy_JukeZ wrote:
eminence wrote:Some basic stats for Steph and other guys who might get mentioned in MVP/All-NBA talks from Dec 1 to now. Sorted by net rating.

Stephen Curry: 25.5 ppg @ 54.6 TS%, 5.3 apg, 4.9 rpg, +10.3 On (/100), -8.7 Off, +19.0 On/Off
Rudy Gobert: 16.0 ppg @ 71.1 TS%, 1.2 apg, 15.8 rpg, +16.4 On, -1.5 Off, +17.9 On/Off
Nikola Jokic: 25.3 ppg @ 60.8 TS%, 7.6 apg, 14.6 rpg, +5.1 On, -12.8 Off, +17.9 On/Off
LeBron James: 30.4 ppg @ 64.9 TS%, 6.3 apg, 8.9 rpg, +4.1 On, -11.7 Off, +15.8 On/Off
DeMar DeRozan: 29.1 ppg @ 57.5 TS%, 5.2 apg, 4.6 rpg, +9.0 On, -6.7 Off, +15.7 On/Off
Draymond Green(for the 2nd best Warrior): 8.1 ppg @ 56.5 TS%, 7.5 apg, 7.5 rpg, +6.8 On, +2.1 Off, +4.7 On/Off
Kevin Durant: 33.1 ppg @ 58.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 8.2 rpg, +3.1 On, +0.1 Off, +3.0 On/Off
Giannis Antetokounmpo: 29.6 ppg @ 62.7 TS%, 6.1 apg, 11.0 rpg, +5.6 On, +3.7 Off, +1.9 On/Off

Until teams decide this is the new Steph and want to defend him differently it truly is very very difficult for him to have a bad game. Even in that truly terrible 5/24 shooting performance vs Dallas, the Warriors went even in the 36 minutes he was on the floor and got wiped by 17 in the 12 minutes he was off.


Has a player ever had such a massive surge forward in on/off like DeRozan this season out of nowhere?


Not that I'm aware of off the top of my head, at least one with comparable history to DeMar prior to now.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#888 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jan 7, 2022 2:44 am

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dude has to come and be like this
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#889 » by yoyoboy » Fri Jan 7, 2022 3:17 am

Bad Gatorade wrote:A few notes on the Curry discussion -

In the last 20 games, the Warriors' opponents are shooting 31.08% from 3 with Curry on the court, and 40.19% from 3 with Curry off. That is a huge disparity, and one that almost certainly can't be pinpointed solely towards Curry's defensive play (or offensive load/gravity/whatever). For the entirety of the season, the diference is 30.7% with Curry on vs 37.0% with Curry off. The next highest minute player to have a negative disparity (I'm talking < 0%, never mind the -6.3% that Curry has) is Gary Payton II, 7th in minutes, with a disparity of -2.7%.

The reason why I don't buy this being Curry's influence is that the previous 7 seasons, this difference is -

2015: +0.6%
2016: -3.0%
2017: +3.3%
2018: +2.4%
2019: -2.3%
2021: +1.4%

And that 2-3% disparity is rather "normal" for an individual season, but something like 6.7% is a big difference that I'd chalk up to random variation more than anything - given that the Warriors opponents attempt 34.91 threes per 100 possessions, that's a good ~7 points per 100 possessions difference from the average, and 8-9 points further from Draymond (whose differential is +2.1 here). This alone is a huge reason as to why Curry's +/- looks like such an outlier relative to his team. Yes, he is a good defensive PG, and yes, the way he plays offence does affect how opponents approach the game. But when 3 point shooting has (repeatedly) shown to have a huge randomness component, and Steph Curry has no real discernible trend of mitigating opponent 3 point shooting, I'd hesitate on drawing too heavily on his incredibly impressive +/- numbers. Similarly, his luck adjusted RAPM overall rank of 7th is still incredibly impressive (and may very well underrate him based off offensive gravity and what not), but it's still well below the routine top 3 finishes he accumulated every season from 2015 to 2019.

I do think that it's worth considering how good a player can be with Curry's "slumping" shooting percentage. With a league average of 55.59%, with Steph having 54.74% really isn't that bad when you consider all of his auxiliary effects (being a good passer, still shooting the 3 very well, still having gravity, the fact that he shoots so many 3s possibly impacting team offensive rebounding relative to his TS%).

The thing is, if we look at ORAPM over the last 5 or so years, it's not until position 13 or so that the players in question are not above average TS% (and even then, the players in the teens are usually around average), so I do think that even if Curry is a "best case" scenario of offensive impact outside of his own (and that's an entirely reasonable take), the modern NBA game seems to place a limit on how impactful a player can be whilst not being particularly efficient himself. And it makes a lot of sense - if Curry is taking up 1/3 of scoring possessions on the Warriors and doing so at a quasi-average shooting clip, how much more offensive impact can be truly be having in the remaining 2/3 relative to the other top guys? And historically, larger RAPM samples support "efficient" players quite strongly. A "mediocre" shooting efficiency guy can still have impressive offensive impact (Iverson, prime Westbrook, Baron Davis, T-Mac) thanks to other factors such as elite passing, floor spacing, turnover reduction and so forth. But these guys have still historically paled in comparison in ORAPM compared to the guys that have these facets, whilst also being efficient shooters.

I do also think that Curry's absurd inclination toward shooting 3s does undermine his efficiency as seen by the naked eye, because seeing a box score like 8/21 makes it look like Curry had a stinker from the field, but then shooting 5/14 from 3 and 9/9 from the line still puts him in that ~60 TS% ballpark. He's definitely had a few terrible shooting games, but the remarkable volume at which he bombs from afar makes these seem more common than they really are.

Does Curry have the best "auxiliary" scoring impact? Sure - and we've had numbers showing that he has that sort of impact on his teammates. But is it so far ahead of a guy like, say, Jokic, who is clearly an elite scorer on his own accord, an elite passer and is obviously going to warp defences in his own way? Or what about Durant? Or Giannis? These guys may not be defended to the same extent/with the same style as Curry, but they're still clearly a primary focus of their opponents, and I don't know if I buy that even a grossly reduced efficiency Curry is going to topple what these guys are providing.

FWIW, I do think that Curry should be discussed in the MVP conversation as far as this season goes. He was electric at the start of the season. However, it's been a tale of two halves, and I'd argue that whilst the first part of his season is quite clearly that of an MVP level player, the second half isn't quite there. He's still been good enough over the course of the season to be in that top 5 conversation for me, but I'm struggling notably with the idea of this version of Curry persisting, and yet remaining a credible candidate for me.

Of course, hope he picks it back up and renders this stretch negligible, because a piping hot Curry is truly a basketball wonder to behold.

Yeah right now, Steph Curry is 2nd in the league in DRAPM on Shot Charts, and then 3 other PGs - George Hill, Ricky Rubio, D’Angelo Russell - make up the top 5. And then Darius Garland who’s never exactly been known as a good defender and in fact quite the opposite during his first couple years - ranks 8th.

I can buy all of those guys being good defenders, even Garland who’s clearly improved this year. But it’s fair to say Curry is probably “stealing” some impact value from Draymond while guys like Garland and Rubio are doing the same with Mobley and Allen. If RAPM can be this noisy with the small sample, it’s easy to see just how noisy raw plus-minus can be.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#890 » by GSP » Fri Jan 7, 2022 3:53 am

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The West playins/playoffs is gonna be brutal af

Warriors w/ Klay and Wiseman back
Suns
Jazz
Lakers w/ healthy Ad, Nunn and prolly some key buyout options
Clips w/ Kawhi
Grizzlies
Mavs w/ healthy Luka and Kp
Nuggs w/ Murray back
Wolves who have some of the best lineups in the league
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#891 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Jan 7, 2022 4:37 am

falcolombardi wrote:
Read on Twitter
?t=VhcHcfHcgjp7jJyFY0bnpA&s=19

here i was starting to feel bad for morris and that injury after the jokic hit

dude has to come and be like this


Dang I guess you could really say Jokic blew his back out.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#892 » by falcolombardi » Fri Jan 7, 2022 5:18 am

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
falcolombardi wrote:
Read on Twitter
?t=VhcHcfHcgjp7jJyFY0bnpA&s=19

here i was starting to feel bad for morris and that injury after the jokic hit

dude has to come and be like this


Dang I guess you could really say Jokic blew his back out.


i said it at the time but jokic hit was a lot more dangerous than most people (jokic most likely included) realized and probably should have got a harsher penalty if only to dissuade pushes like that as much as possible

like, non ironically that kind of sudden hit (with so much mass behind) on someone back without any notice is dangerous on people necks and cervicals because of the whip effect

dangerous as hell, and i think everyone here told me i was exagersting cause morris was dirty first...which is true but doesnt make it any less dangerous
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#893 » by eminence » Fri Jan 7, 2022 6:01 am

Agreed that Jokic deserved a longer suspension (probably Morris too, I don't remember how long his was).

I'm really tired of seeing dudes kinda sorta fight on the basketball court.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#894 » by LukaTheGOAT » Fri Jan 7, 2022 6:35 am

eminence wrote:Agreed that Jokic deserved a longer suspension (probably Morris too, I don't remember how long his was).

I'm really tired of seeing dudes kinda sorta fight on the basketball court.


Morris didn't actually get suspended, he was just fined $50,000.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#895 » by Colbinii » Fri Jan 7, 2022 2:10 pm

GSP wrote:
Read on Twitter


The West playins/playoffs is gonna be brutal af

Warriors w/ Klay and Wiseman back
Suns
Jazz
Lakers w/ healthy Ad, Nunn and prolly some key buyout options
Clips w/ Kawhi
Grizzlies
Mavs w/ healthy Luka and Kp
Nuggs w/ Murray back
Wolves who have some of the best lineups in the league


Let's go! I would be ecstatic if we can sneak into the post-season.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#896 » by eminence » Fri Jan 7, 2022 4:09 pm

LukaTheGOAT wrote:
eminence wrote:Agreed that Jokic deserved a longer suspension (probably Morris too, I don't remember how long his was).

I'm really tired of seeing dudes kinda sorta fight on the basketball court.


Morris didn't actually get suspended, he was just fined $50,000.


Oof, well, then yeah, he certainly deserved one.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#897 » by parsnips33 » Fri Jan 7, 2022 7:03 pm

GSP wrote:
Read on Twitter


The West playins/playoffs is gonna be brutal af

Warriors w/ Klay and Wiseman back
Suns
Jazz
Lakers w/ healthy Ad, Nunn and prolly some key buyout options
Clips w/ Kawhi
Grizzlies
Mavs w/ healthy Luka and Kp
Nuggs w/ Murray back
Wolves who have some of the best lineups in the league


First round is gonna be crazy
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#898 » by eminence » Fri Jan 7, 2022 7:12 pm

Shoutout to Steven Adams for having another rock solid starting season. Wasn't completely sure he still had it in him, but he's been a big part of the Memphis success so far.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#899 » by eminence » Sat Jan 8, 2022 1:11 am

Jazz 3rd stringers hung 40 on the Raps in the 1st quarter, ouch.
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Re: 2021-22 NBA Season Discussion 

Post#900 » by falcolombardi » Sat Jan 8, 2022 3:50 am

embiid and jokic are so good that is insane

i honestly think they have as much talent as any all time great center (giannis too if you count hin as a big)

is insane how much center/bigs talent has risen since the early 10's when the best centers were noah, tyson Chandler and post prime howard

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