James Harden is a superstar

franktony · Post #901 » by **franktony** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:31 am

He is not a superstar. He is a star SG. A very good one.

So funny to see some OKC fans trying to discredit Harden now that he is not a Thunder anymore. Last season he was the new messiah, a top 2 SG according to OKC fans. Now they always try to discredit him.

lethalizer · Post #902 » by **lethalizer** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:45 pm

- First Post, hallelujah! -

As an OKC fan myself, I was absolutely dumbfounded and really upset when he was traded. But now that it's been a while, I believe I can look at things more objectively(I can see clearly now the rain is gone).

Honestly, even when he was soaring in OKC the last 2 seasons, I never believed Harden was a max player in terms of production and potential. But then again, I also always believed that he could perform in ANY team. Sure he wouldn't make any garbage team a playoff one, but who can do that anyway?(excluding LeBron here).

So all in all, if you compare his contract to the other players in the league playing his position, I fully believe that Harden deserved the max contract he got. Sure he'll hit some bumps on the road, but nothing he won't get used to.

In terms of "superstar"? I think the league only contains 4-5 superstars at the moment. The term is being dished out too loosely. If I call Harden a superstar, I would have to call 5-10 more players a superstar, thus I'm not comfortable calling him one(and for the record, I never thought I would use the word "call" in a sentence 3 times).

He is an all-star though. And probably will be one for the foreseeable future. That should be enough for now.

The superstar tag? I think he has the potential for it, but he won't pursue it himself(character-stuff).

Oh and, hi all.

CKRT · Post #903 » by **CKRT** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:10 pm

Looks like he's a game time decision tonight.

JordansBulls · Post #904 » by **JordansBulls** » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:44 pm

franktony wrote:He is not a superstar. He is a star SG. A very good one.

So funny to see some OKC fans trying to discredit Harden now that he is not a Thunder anymore. Last season he was the new messiah, a top 2 SG according to OKC fans. Now they always try to discredit him.

Well it depends on what you classify as superstar. Are you considering a guy who is a superstar by production or by name?

Krodis · Post #905 » by **Krodis** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:20 am

Only missed one game with the ankle injury.

JordansBulls · Post #906 » by **JordansBulls** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:16 pm

He is now averaging 25/5/4 on 43% FG and 58% TS. Would you not call a player a superstar averaging 25/5/5?

Post #907 » by **tsherkin** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:34 pm

Numbers alone won't dictate superstardom, at least not in a single season.

He's playing well, settling into his role and getting more adjusted. We won't really see if he's got the stuff to be a superstar until Houston gets a bit more talent and consistency and Harden establishes a pattern of high-level performance.

He's doing basically everything he can at the moment to prove that he's got it in him, though. A single player can do a lot, but only so much.

MisterWestside · Post #908 » by **MisterWestside** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:44 pm

JordansBulls wrote:He is now averaging 25/5/4 on 43% FG and 58% TS. Would you not call a player a superstar averaging 25/5/5?

Harden's also in the bottom half of all starters in tov%. He's playing well in his new role, but I wouldn't currently call him a superstar.

JordansBulls · Post #909 » by **JordansBulls** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:55 pm

MisterWestside wrote:
JordansBulls wrote:He is now averaging 25/5/4 on 43% FG and 58% TS. Would you not call a player a superstar averaging 25/5/5?

Harden's also in the bottom half of all starters in tov%. He's playing well in his new role, but I wouldn't currently call him a superstar.

What numbers would you consider a superstar? Or do you consider more the popularity of a player more so?

Post #910 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:00 pm

MisterWestside wrote:Harden's also in the bottom half of all starters in tov%. He's playing well in his new role, but I wouldn't currently call him a superstar.

Given his affinity for the PnR, and how high a TOV% that play tends to generate, I wouldn't read overly much into that number. Also, given the offensive context of the Rockets...

Krodis · Post #911 » by **Krodis** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:06 pm

Not really surprising for a young team, but the Rockets are so darn inconsistent. And Carlos Delfino thinks he's a lot better than he is.

hokageinfamus · Post #912 » by **hokageinfamus** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:38 pm

Would you not call a player a superstar averaging 25/5/5?

No Monta Ellis has averaged 25,5,5 and he wasn't considered a superstar

Krodis · Post #913 » by **Krodis** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:41 pm

hokageinfamus wrote:
Would you not call a player a superstar averaging 25/5/5?

No Monta Ellis has averaged 25,5,5 and he wasn't considered a superstar

No he hasn't. And he's vastly less efficient than Harden. And he's an even worse defender than Harden.

Post #914 » by **tsherkin** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:46 pm

hokageinfamus wrote:No Monta Ellis has averaged 25,5,5 and he wasn't considered a superstar

Mmmm.

TECHNICALLY, he averaged 25.5, 4.0 and 5.3, so that's not 25/5/5. He also did it on 51.7% TS, which was 2.6% BELOW league average efficiency. He played only 64 games and it took him a league-high 41.4 mpg to do it. He averaged 22, 3.5 and 4.6 PER36 for a team that won 26 games (and won 19 of his 64 games, which prorates to 24 wins over the season).

By contrast, Harden is averaging 24.8 ppg, 4.4 rpg and 5.4 apg, so a similar raw average to Ellis. He's doing it in 38.9 mpg, averaging 23, 4.1 and 5.0 PER36, though, still better than Ellis (although ITO raw averages, the difference is nit-picky and mostly unimportant). Harden is taking 16.0 FGA/g compared to Ellis' 22.0. Harden is posting a USG of 28.2% on an ORTG of 111 against Ellis' 29.4 on an ORTG of 99 (which is abysmal).

He is doing it, however, on 58.0% TS, which is 5.1% over league average. The Rockets are currently 11-11, on pace for 41 wins, much better than Ellis' Warriors.

There are some substantial differences between what Ellis did and what Harden is doing.

hokageinfamus · Post #915 » by **hokageinfamus** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:51 pm

No he hasn't. And he's vastly less efficient than Harden. And he's an even worse defender than Harden.

lol close 09-10 Ellis averaged 26, 4 and 5, Harden is averaging 25 4 and 5 and efficiency wise Ellis hasn't been playing the right role since his 3rd year. He was basically a poor man's OKC James Harden for the Warriors 06-08.

Harden is the superior player no doubt, I wasn't insinuating that Ellis was better in any way

MisterWestside · Post #916 » by **MisterWestside** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:03 pm

tsherkin wrote:Given his affinity for the PnR, and how high a TOV% that play tends to generate, I wouldn't read overly much into that number. Also, given the offensive context of the Rockets...

Understood; I just think if he wants to be given that label (on offense) he should improve that facet of his game. He's aleady elite at putting the ball in the basket.

Krodis · Post #917 » by **Krodis** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:07 pm

I think playing more with Greg Smith and Toney Douglas and less with Jeremy Lin and Omer Asik would probably help his turnover numbers, but Asik is kind of necessary for the Rockets to not be totally abysmal defensively.

Anyway, Harden's turnover numbers are high, but they're not outrageously so. As long as it's resulting in good offense overall the exact number is probably unimportant. Two low turnover games in a row though is somewhat encouraging.

Doormatt · Post #918 » by **Doormatt** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:11 pm

tsherkin wrote:
hokageinfamus wrote:No Monta Ellis has averaged 25,5,5 and he wasn't considered a superstar

Mmmm.

TECHNICALLY, he averaged 25.5, 4.0 and 5.3, so that's not 25/5/5. He also did it on 51.7% TS, which was 2.6% BELOW league average efficiency. He played only 64 games and it took him a league-high 41.4 mpg to do it. He averaged 22, 3.5 and 4.6 PER36 for a team that won 26 games (and won 19 of his 64 games, which prorates to 24 wins over the season).

By contrast, Harden is averaging 24.8 ppg, 4.4 rpg and 5.4 apg, so a similar raw average to Ellis. He's doing it in 38.9 mpg, averaging 23, 4.1 and 5.0 PER36, though, still better than Ellis (although ITO raw averages, the difference is nit-picky and mostly unimportant). Harden is taking 16.0 FGA/g compared to Ellis' 22.0. Harden is posting a USG of 28.2% on an ORTG of 111 against Ellis' 29.4 on an ORTG of 99 (which is abysmal).

He is doing it, however, on 58.0% TS, which is 5.1% over league average. The Rockets are currently 11-11, on pace for 41 wins, much better than Ellis' Warriors.

There are some substantial differences between what Ellis did and what Harden is doing.

plus can you only imagine how good harden would look playing next to steph curry? my god..

Krodis · Post #919 » by **Krodis** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:14 pm

But Curry would turn useless next to that ball-stopping black hole of talent James Harden.

OptimusOne6 · Post #920 » by **OptimusOne6** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:26 pm

Krodis wrote:But Curry would turn useless next to that ball-stopping black hole of talent James Harden.

Curry would be good because he is a great shooter. Curry wouldn't really set Harden up though because Harden would be the primary ball-handler because he is useless without the ball. Harden would look bad next to someone like Rondo though.