'15-16 RealGM Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[toodles23]

My point is that basically no matter who the 3rd option would be, he'd look disappointing.

Love deserves plenty of criticism for not being able to adapt to the new role, plus the defensive issues, but what's clear about it fundamentally is that Love is being pushed outward to a role more like "stay out there and be ready", which isn't really a great offensive plan for your 3rd best player period, let alone one who works so well on the inside and is known for his excellent passing.

Others would handle the situation better, but only someone without the reputation of being an offensive star would actually escape criticism were he to play with LeBron & Kyrie.

Works so well on the inside? Love is shooting 35% at the rim in the playoffs. There's no doubt the Cavs aren't putting him in a great position to be successful, but at some point it's on him to make some shots around the basket - blaming all of that on the Cavs approach seems a little silly. Watching him now compared to Minnesota, it's pretty clear that losing so much weight has hurt his game. He has way more trouble establishing position, boxing out, and finishing than he used to.

[JordansBulls]

My point is that basically no matter who the 3rd option would be, he'd look disappointing.

Love deserves plenty of criticism for not being able to adapt to the new role, plus the defensive issues, but what's clear about it fundamentally is that Love is being pushed outward to a role more like "stay out there and be ready", which isn't really a great offensive plan for your 3rd best player period, let alone one who works so well on the inside and is known for his excellent passing.

Others would handle the situation better, but only someone without the reputation of being an offensive star would actually escape criticism were he to play with LeBron & Kyrie.

I agree with this. The best way for Love to be used really would be if he was the 6th man and he was to primarily score kinda like Terry was for the Mavs. Otherwise if you already have 2 dynamic scorers than the 3rd guy needs to be someone whose purpose isnt to simply score.

[HeartBreakKid]

I think the Love issue is overblown. Yeah, he's struggling, but dude just suffered a concussion a week ago. Klay got a concussion against the Rockets last year, had a week off, and still was generally lost and out of it against the Cavs. These things don't disappear overnight.

This explanation hurts Love's case.

Love only missed one game, Klay probably missed three - Love isn't playing bad because of rust.


Unless you're inferring that Love is playing while concussed...which he's not.

[MisterHibachi]

I think the Love issue is overblown. Yeah, he's struggling, but dude just suffered a concussion a week ago. Klay got a concussion against the Rockets last year, had a week off, and still was generally lost and out of it against the Cavs. These things don't disappear overnight.

This explanation hurts Love's case.

Love only missed one game, Klay probably missed three - Love isn't playing bad because of rust.


Unless you're inferring that Love is playing while concussed...which he's not.

Klay actually missed zero games. Concussed last game against Houston, played game 1 against Cleveland. And I don't know if he's playing concussed, probably not, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are lingering effects of some sort that have thrown him off. He was pretty decent the entire playoff run and never seemed this disengaged/lost.

[Doctor MJ]

As someone who had been using +/- stats for over a decade...no. I can see an argument for Green still deserving a shot at Finals MVP if he plays well enough in Game 6/7, but it doesn't make sense to say "They'd fall apart without him" here to me.

You mention how Green's absence let them get in the groove, but there's a lot more to it than that. It was clear that LeBron went into this game thinking, "I'm just going to have to take those shots". Clearly much of his issue is with confidence, and while Green's absence helped him be more confident, LeBron's confidence isn't a game issue, it's a season issue which LeBron had the courage to turn the corner on because his team was in an elimination game.

Even if GS struggling in his absence doesn't improve his FMVP case, does it do anything for him in terms of your POY ballot? Or is it too hard to un-see him struggling against KD and having to essentially relinquish ball-handling duties in that series, on top of OKC is preventing Green from playing the 5 for heavy minutes while being effective against their frontline?

Hard for me to unsee that. Very hard. I'll try though when I read others arguments.

Just to summarize for others:

I came into the playoffs looking to strongly consider Green not simply for the Top 5 but actually for #1. I had one big question though:

Is this GOAT record team relying on a pseudo-big man's mismatches in a way that isn't sustainable against teams with truly solid front court's? And watching the OKC series, the answer was a clear yes. OKC is an amazing team no doubt, but it's not the only team in history that would leave Green unable to play the 4 or the 5, and that's a problem for the Warriors.

Now, one might ask: Does that reflect on the other guys on the team as well? I could see the argument, but Curry & Klay aren't really relying on lineup mismatches to do their thing the way Green is, and realistically it's not that hard to get your head around the idea that someone who can shoot like those guys can would be insanely valuable in today's game. Green was the surprise, and while it's not like I dismiss him as a star now, he is someone who I think is matchup dependent in a way we frankly expect with role players. The phrase "superstar role player" was used last year and I wasn't sure if I liked it because it's thesis was in part that the player in question was only having superstar-impact within a given context. I'm more comfortable with that now.

To be clear: This doesn't mean Green couldn't ever make my Top 5, but it's a strong year for the competition given that I don't think even Chris Paul makes my ballot.

[GSP]

Death lineup is +14.2 points per 100 poss in this series. With Livingston and without Steph for the Death lineup theyre +13.6.

I dont think theres any question that Draymond puts the D in their Death lineup. They got beaten badly with just about every other player they plugged into the 5 yesterday.

[Doctor MJ]

That's fair, I'm just still a bit disappointed overall at the team who was looking like they'd nearly sweep the playoffs look really down compared to how they did against what was just weaker comp in the end.

We're still talking about a team that may well come off in these playoffs having only 1 series challenge in OKC. The OKC series alone will probably make most see them as something below GOAT-level and that makes sense, but the OKC series also wasn't some random disappointment. We knew OKC was a matchup concern, it's just OKC is stronger than expected and the matchups issues a bit more extreme than expected.

[Doctor MJ]

Yeah, Klay had a pretty bad series up until last night so I don't think it makes much sense to give him too much praise. People really do seem to ignore his bad games.

Glad someone else sees it.

I feel like people are thinking "Curry isn't playing worthy of a Finals MVP!" before they even do apples-to-apples comparisons with the other guys. Curry isn't looking GOAT-like out there, but he remains the focal point in every way of the team that's been better while playing in a way that the opposing focal point could never do.

[bondom34]

That's fair, I'm just still a bit disappointed overall at the team who was looking like they'd nearly sweep the playoffs look really down compared to how they did against what was just weaker comp in the end.

We're still talking about a team that may well come off in these playoffs having only 1 series challenge in OKC. The OKC series alone will probably make most see them as something below GOAT-level and that makes sense, but the OKC series also wasn't some random disappointment. We knew OKC was a matchup concern, it's just OKC is stronger than expected and the matchups issues a bit more extreme than expected.

I think now, even given circumstance, I'd call this series a challenge. And its a beneficial matchup for Golden State as well, despite circumstances. They had 2 really favorable matchups early then once faced with 2 actually good teams were well challenged.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think Kerr is abnormally calm for a coach, he just really didn't have a ton of options without Green. And its pretty rare for a coach to ever admit to panic when he's up 3-2 in the finals.

I'm also not really sure there's a ton of overreaction suddenly popping up (at least here, the GB is a different thing entirely) so much as a lot of lingering issues a few people have seen for a while that seem to be growing.

To be clear, my opinion of Kerr being so calm was around way before this series. To me it's a core part of his philosophy that's reminds of Phil to some degree, but really is more like Pete Carroll in college football. His goal as a coach is to get the best out of his players and staff by building their self-efficacy, and you don't do that by yanking everything around at the drop of a hat.

[Texas Chuck]

Doc,

Is it possible that Draymond just had a poor series? Or more accurately a couple of poor games? I'm not at all convinced that series tells us Draymond can't be effective as a 4 or a 5 against a significant number of opponents. You talk about people overreacting to Curry, but then seem more than willing to reach some quick conclusions on Green based on a very small sample size.

[bondom34]

I don't think Kerr is abnormally calm for a coach, he just really didn't have a ton of options without Green. And its pretty rare for a coach to ever admit to panic when he's up 3-2 in the finals.

I'm also not really sure there's a ton of overreaction suddenly popping up (at least here, the GB is a different thing entirely) so much as a lot of lingering issues a few people have seen for a while that seem to be growing.

To be clear, my opinion of Kerr being so calm was around way before this series. To me it's a core part of his philosophy that's reminds of Phil to some degree, but really is more like Pete Carroll in college football. His goal as a coach is to get the best out of his players and staff by building their self-efficacy, and you don't do that by yanking everything around at the drop of a hat.

He is, but I don't really see many coaches who aren't. I'm not sure what's different from him to any other coach in general demeanor, I haven't seen anything to suggest it honestly.

[Doctor MJ]

1. Klay is playing elite defense through whole playoffs: Harden, Lillard, Westbrook...anyone ever faced such offensive talent as defensive stoper? And on offense he is 3rd option, while Curry is MVP and not so long ago "arguably GOAT season", so of course there are different standards judging them..

You can't use different standards when actually ranking them though. That's the problem.

2. I'm not sure Curry is playing more off the ball now. According to sportVU he is on ball longer than in regular season or any other playoff round:

I mean from previous years.

[Doctor MJ]

But still some of these turnovers have been really lazy.

THIS I totally agree with. It's irritating frankly.

[Doctor MJ]

My point is that basically no matter who the 3rd option would be, he'd look disappointing.

Love deserves plenty of criticism for not being able to adapt to the new role, plus the defensive issues, but what's clear about it fundamentally is that Love is being pushed outward to a role more like "stay out there and be ready", which isn't really a great offensive plan for your 3rd best player period, let alone one who works so well on the inside and is known for his excellent passing.

Others would handle the situation better, but only someone without the reputation of being an offensive star would actually escape criticism were he to play with LeBron & Kyrie.

Works so well on the inside? Love is shooting 35% at the rim in the playoffs. There's no doubt the Cavs aren't putting him in a great position to be successful, but at some point it's on him to make some shots around the basket - blaming all of that on the Cavs approach seems a little silly. Watching him now compared to Minnesota, it's pretty clear that losing so much weight has hurt his game. He has way more trouble establishing position, boxing out, and finishing than he used to.

Love deserves plenty of criticism, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree if you think the Cavs have set Love up for success.

[Doctor MJ]

That's fair, I'm just still a bit disappointed overall at the team who was looking like they'd nearly sweep the playoffs look really down compared to how they did against what was just weaker comp in the end.

We're still talking about a team that may well come off in these playoffs having only 1 series challenge in OKC. The OKC series alone will probably make most see them as something below GOAT-level and that makes sense, but the OKC series also wasn't some random disappointment. We knew OKC was a matchup concern, it's just OKC is stronger than expected and the matchups issues a bit more extreme than expected.

I think now, even given circumstance, I'd call this series a challenge. And its a beneficial matchup for Golden State as well, despite circumstances. They had 2 really favorable matchups early then once faced with 2 actually good teams were well challenged.

Was it a challenge before Game 5 to you? I mean, two blowout home wins and then taking one of the two road games by pulling away down the stretch seems about all you'd expect from a first round victory.

To me it will come down to what happens after now. If Golden State wins Game 6 similar to Game 4, the Cavs really don't get to make an argument that they were "close" to a championship.

[Doctor MJ]

Doc,

Is it possible that Draymond just had a poor series? Or more accurately a couple of poor games? I'm not at all convinced that series tells us Draymond can't be effective as a 4 or a 5 against a significant number of opponents. You talk about people overreacting to Curry, but then seem more than willing to reach some quick conclusions on Green based on a very small sample size.

Good point. I'm concerned with overreacting against Green which is part of why I"m talking about how his diappointment there played into my concerns before the series even started.

What I would say is that players have the ability to change my mind over time, but right now, to me the simplest explanation is that Green is indeed very susceptible to a truly solid front court.

[Doctor MJ]

I don't think Kerr is abnormally calm for a coach, he just really didn't have a ton of options without Green. And its pretty rare for a coach to ever admit to panic when he's up 3-2 in the finals.

I'm also not really sure there's a ton of overreaction suddenly popping up (at least here, the GB is a different thing entirely) so much as a lot of lingering issues a few people have seen for a while that seem to be growing.

To be clear, my opinion of Kerr being so calm was around way before this series. To me it's a core part of his philosophy that's reminds of Phil to some degree, but really is more like Pete Carroll in college football. His goal as a coach is to get the best out of his players and staff by building their self-efficacy, and you don't do that by yanking everything around at the drop of a hat.

He is, but I don't really see many coaches who aren't. I'm not sure what's different from him to any other coach in general demeanor, I haven't seen anything to suggest it honestly.

The NBA is filled with teams that essentially glue would-be glue guys to the bench and fanbases wondering furiously why they can't ever get depth no matter who they bring in. What Kerr has achieved in the synergy of his club blows my mind. He is, without question, the best CEO candidate I've seen amongst NBA coaches.

[bondom34]

We're still talking about a team that may well come off in these playoffs having only 1 series challenge in OKC. The OKC series alone will probably make most see them as something below GOAT-level and that makes sense, but the OKC series also wasn't some random disappointment. We knew OKC was a matchup concern, it's just OKC is stronger than expected and the matchups issues a bit more extreme than expected.

I think now, even given circumstance, I'd call this series a challenge. And its a beneficial matchup for Golden State as well, despite circumstances. They had 2 really favorable matchups early then once faced with 2 actually good teams were well challenged.

Was it a challenge before Game 5 to you? I mean, two blowout home wins and then taking one of the two road games by pulling away down the stretch seems about all you'd expect from a first round victory.

To me it will come down to what happens after now. If Golden State wins Game 6 similar to Game 4, the Cavs really don't get to make an argument that they were "close" to a championship.

No, but a relatively solid road win in Oracle to force at least 6 games made it one. I'd generally call a 4-5 game series non competitive, over that its close.

To be clear, my opinion of Kerr being so calm was around way before this series. To me it's a core part of his philosophy that's reminds of Phil to some degree, but really is more like Pete Carroll in college football. His goal as a coach is to get the best out of his players and staff by building their self-efficacy, and you don't do that by yanking everything around at the drop of a hat.

He is, but I don't really see many coaches who aren't. I'm not sure what's different from him to any other coach in general demeanor, I haven't seen anything to suggest it honestly.

The NBA is filled with teams that essentially glue would-be glue guys to the bench and fanbases wondering furiously why they can't ever get depth no matter who they bring in. What Kerr has achieved in the synergy of his club blows my mind. He is, without question, the best CEO candidate I've seen amongst NBA coaches.

Well, 2 things:
1. He was a GM.
2. I still don't see what he's doing differently. He stuck Iggy in the starters, which I think any of us would have done. Coaches at this level rarely make a panic move. I don't see anything he did or has done with the rotation that's very special.

[kayess]

My point is that basically no matter who the 3rd option would be, he'd look disappointing.

Love deserves plenty of criticism for not being able to adapt to the new role, plus the defensive issues, but what's clear about it fundamentally is that Love is being pushed outward to a role more like "stay out there and be ready", which isn't really a great offensive plan for your 3rd best player period, let alone one who works so well on the inside and is known for his excellent passing.

Others would handle the situation better, but only someone without the reputation of being an offensive star would actually escape criticism were he to play with LeBron & Kyrie.

Works so well on the inside? Love is shooting 35% at the rim in the playoffs. There's no doubt the Cavs aren't putting him in a great position to be successful, but at some point it's on him to make some shots around the basket - blaming all of that on the Cavs approach seems a little silly. Watching him now compared to Minnesota, it's pretty clear that losing so much weight has hurt his game. He has way more trouble establishing position, boxing out, and finishing than he used to.

Love deserves plenty of criticism, but we're just going to have to agree to disagree if you think the Cavs have set Love up for success.

He says the opposite, Doc - "There's no doubt the Cavs aren't putting him in a great position to be successful"