2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[jalengreen]

I feel robbed of Embiid as a talent, truly feels like we’ve seen the best of him and he’ll never really be healthy again. Particularly sucks because he’s also actively the most hated player in the league - people were still victory lapping the “dodging Jokic” stuff when he’s clearly just actually hurt lmao. Regardless of what happens in the future, I’m glad he got that MVP and gold medal even if both achievements are/will be ridiculed. Talent like his not having any notable achievements would be a travesty.

[itsxtray]

I feel robbed of Embiid as a talent, truly feels like we’ve seen the best of him and he’ll never really be healthy again. Particularly sucks because he’s also actively the most hated player in the league - people were still victory lapping the “dodging Jokic” stuff when he’s clearly just actually hurt lmao. Regardless of what happens in the future, I’m glad he got that MVP and gold medal even if both achievements are/will be ridiculed. Talent like his not having any notable achievements would be a travesty.

Those meniscus/acl injuries can be tricky. They’re no longer the career-enders people once feared, but you’d still rather avoid them. Similar to Kawhi, the recurring knee swelling is unpredictable, never truly goes away, and can flare up at random times. It’s something you can’t control, which makes it all the more frustrating for fans and the player.

[LeoClark]

Lakers must be like phew. Dlo hitting that really might have started a 5 game losing streak.

[ShaqAttac]

Lakers must be like phew. Dlo hitting that really might have started a 5 game losing streak.

how bout a 5 game dub streak instead

[OhayoKD]

Legacies on the line:

[therealbig3]

So how do people feel generally about the Jokic vs peak LeBron debate?

I'm not totally convinced that Jokic is as good or better offensively despite the obviously amazing box score production, and peak LeBron was obviously a significantly superior defensive player. There would have to be evidence that Jokic is clearly superior offensively, but I don't really see the evidence for that when looking at team-level data. For example, LeBron consistently being the anchor of some of the best playoff offenses we've ever seen. Don't think we've seen that out of Jokic, but then again, it is true...he doesn't have the team help that other all time greats have had.

I'm on the LeBron is better and not much of a debate to me side of things right now, but curious what other people think.

This is different than I felt before, when I was particularly high on Jokic, but I saw some of the same concerns people have had with Jokic against Minnesota creep up again, and I kind of came back down to "he's amazing, but not quite GOAT-level".

[falcolombardi]

So how do people feel generally about the Jokic vs peak LeBron debate?

I'm not totally convinced that Jokic is as good or better offensively despite the obviously amazing box score production, and peak LeBron was obviously a significantly superior defensive player. There would have to be evidence that Jokic is clearly superior offensively, but I don't really see the evidence for that when looking at team-level data. For example, LeBron consistently being the anchor of some of the best playoff offenses we've ever seen. Don't think we've seen that out of Jokic, but then again, it is true...he doesn't have the team help that other all time greats have had.

I'm on the LeBron is better and not much of a debate to me side of things right now, but curious what other people think.

This is different than I felt before, when I was particularly high on Jokic, but I saw some of the same concerns people have had with Jokic against Minnesota creep up again, and I kind of came back down to "he's amazing, but not quite GOAT-level".

Is easily lebron imo

[capfan33]

Lebron not close.

[OverAndOut]

Maybe off-topic but I couldn't think of anywhere else to ask this question.

Playoff relative offensive and defensive ratings: how exactly are these calculated? I know that for the playoffs, rORtg is the difference between a team's raw offensive rating and the opponent's regular season defensive rating. And rDRtg is the difference between a team's raw defensive rating and the opponent's regular season offensive rating.

An example is the 2005 Suns. I've seen multiple mentions of this team having the greatest playoff rORtg of all time at 16.2. I have no idea how this is calculated. When I try to calculate it myself, I get 16.6.

Round 1 vs Grizzlies: 124.0 rORtg vs 102.9 rDRtg (+21.1)
Round 2 vs Mavericks: 118.4 rORtg vs 104.1 rDRtg (+14.3)
Round 3 vs Spurs: 113.3 rORtg vs 98.8 rDRtg (+14.5)

Averaging the 21.1, 14.3, 14.5 gives me 16.6, not 16.2.

And if I take the Suns overall playoff offensive rating of 118.2 and look at their three opponents' regular season defensive ratings of 102.9, 104.1, and 98.8, that gives me 16.3. Still not the 16.2 number, but extremely close.

I was just wondering if anyone could point out where I messed up the calculation because I'm clearly messing up and/or misunderstanding something.

[The-Power]

Averaging the 21.1, 14.3, 14.5 gives me 16.6, not 16.2.

You must take into account that they played a different number of games each round. The formula should look like this then:

((21.1*4)+(14.3*6)+(14.5*5))/15

And that get's you to 16.18 (= 16.2).

[OverAndOut]

Averaging the 21.1, 14.3, 14.5 gives me 16.6, not 16.2.

You must take into account that they played a different number of games each round. The formula should look like this then:

((21.1*4)+(14.3*6)+(14.5*5))/15

And that get's you to 16.18 (= 16.2).

Thank you! I knew I was doing something wrong. Math was always my worst subject in school.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

Sorry cleveland this wasn't for you lol

[Top10alltime]

shai vs wemby (my fav player this yr) who will rank ahead?

[Texas Chuck]

SGA is the better player playing for the best team in the conference. Wemby's time may come but he's not an MVP level guy yet. SGA definitely is.

[MoreyWins]

Amen Thompson is such a unique player. I haven't seen a player like him. He is a super efficient rim threat wing with top 1% athleticism, point foward vision and dribbling, all around elite defense, and elite ball hawking instincts. He does everything but shoot jumpers. All-around complimentary player with Zion level finishing and Kawhi level defense.

[tsherkin]

SGA is the better player playing for the best team in the conference. Wemby's time may come but he's not an MVP level guy yet. SGA definitely is.

Shai does seem quite clearly ahead at this point.

Wemby lacks the punch to be on the same level, even though we're all projecting a couple years ahead already. He's pretty amazing for a 21 year-old in his second season, though. He's still a violently-inconsistent offensive player because of his absurd 3pt volume, though still better than he was as a rookie. And his D is pretty awesome.

But Shai is a monster right now, well-entrenched in his prime and just crushing it. Wemby is doing well, but he's not there yet. Soon, probably, but not right now.

[Peregrine01]

So how do people feel generally about the Jokic vs peak LeBron debate?

I'm not totally convinced that Jokic is as good or better offensively despite the obviously amazing box score production, and peak LeBron was obviously a significantly superior defensive player. There would have to be evidence that Jokic is clearly superior offensively, but I don't really see the evidence for that when looking at team-level data. For example, LeBron consistently being the anchor of some of the best playoff offenses we've ever seen. Don't think we've seen that out of Jokic, but then again, it is true...he doesn't have the team help that other all time greats have had.

I'm on the LeBron is better and not much of a debate to me side of things right now, but curious what other people think.

This is different than I felt before, when I was particularly high on Jokic, but I saw some of the same concerns people have had with Jokic against Minnesota creep up again, and I kind of came back down to "he's amazing, but not quite GOAT-level".

The bolded part really came during the second Cleveland stint, specifically the 2016 to 2017 playoffs when the Cavs put up ORTGs of 115 and 120 respectively. But it's worth noting that the Cavs were just smacking weak East teams during both years.

[therealbig3]

So how do people feel generally about the Jokic vs peak LeBron debate?

I'm not totally convinced that Jokic is as good or better offensively despite the obviously amazing box score production, and peak LeBron was obviously a significantly superior defensive player. There would have to be evidence that Jokic is clearly superior offensively, but I don't really see the evidence for that when looking at team-level data. For example, LeBron consistently being the anchor of some of the best playoff offenses we've ever seen. Don't think we've seen that out of Jokic, but then again, it is true...he doesn't have the team help that other all time greats have had.

I'm on the LeBron is better and not much of a debate to me side of things right now, but curious what other people think.

This is different than I felt before, when I was particularly high on Jokic, but I saw some of the same concerns people have had with Jokic against Minnesota creep up again, and I kind of came back down to "he's amazing, but not quite GOAT-level".

The bolded part really came during the second Cleveland stint, specifically the 2016 to 2017 playoffs when the Cavs put up ORTGs of 115 and 120 respectively. But it's worth noting that the Cavs were just smacking weak East teams during both years.

Relative to defenses played, 09 Cavs and the 12-14 Heat were also pretty dominant offensively.

[therealbig3]

For reference, if we look at all teams that LeBron has led to at least the conference Finals during his prime (so 09-18), these are how their playoff offenses look with him on the court, relative to the defenses faced:

09 Cavs: +9.8
11 Heat: +4.7
12 Heat: +10.7
13 Heat: +9.9
14 Heat: +9.6
15 Cavs: +4.1
16 Cavs: +14.1
17 Cavs: +16.9
18 Cavs: +5.6

If we do the same for Jokic since 2020:

20 Nuggets: +7.4
23 Nuggets: +7.4

[LukaTheGOAT]

Donovan Mitchell in his last 7 Games:

30.4 PPG
6.0 APG
3.7 RPG
1.4 SPG
46/36/87 Splits
60% TS
+12 Net Rating per Game

He’s scored 30+ 5 out of 7 Games.


Hoping he's starting to regress towards historical mean for the restricted area shooting because he's been well below his past standards.

2025: 59% in restricted area
2024: 66% in RA
2023: 68% in RA

He hasn't looked as bouncy this year as years past.