2019-2020 Player of the Year Discussion Thread

[limbo]

I can do the same song and dance for LeBron. Butler has been phenomenal but like I said, outside of game 3 LeBron has been better or matched him. Even last night seems like a winning bias thing.

You can? Forget 'outside game 3' cherry picked stuff. What has LeBron done better than Butler over the course of this series considering the circumstances both are playing under?

[yoyoboy]

Yeah Butler is definitely gonna be in my top 5. No matter how he plays though from here on out and even if Miami wins I can’t see myself putting him 1st though. He simply wasn’t comparable to LeBron (or a few other guys as well) the other ~90 games of the season before the Finals. How much credit can I give a guy for playing at an amazing level for 5 games but also against a team that’s just not at all equipped to stop him?

[Doctor MJ]

Do we ever account of players leveling up during a series?

How else to account for such a jump? Butler was at best the what, 8th best player during the season? But honestly he felt like an afterthought, like outside the top 10.

The way he’s controlling the game and damn near outshining the face of the league is pretty remarkable, all undermanned too.

I agree he is top 5 though, there’s no way around it.

Will he still be top 5 middle of next season? I think he’s shown us that that’s immaterial to him, seems much more of a playoff guy, and nothing wrong with that, he produces results.

Well I think what we're seeing here is the combination of:

a. A clear tendency toward greater awareness and flow when the stakes are high. He feeds on this s**t.

b. Him specifically taking on a different role-approach when Dragic & Bam went down and it became clear that the more egalitarian style of offense was just clearly not working. I don't know if it was him making the observation and decision or if Spo or Haslem said something to him, but he's now playing in a much more heliocentric capacity where he's the one steering the ship and he's the one making something happen with an eye first toward scoring.

So (a) is him pretty much leveling up, but I think it's most useful to look at (b) as something different. Think of it as a change of lanes on the road where a car has stalled in a particular lane. He's doing something different, it's working very well, it happens to be that by playing in this way he gets to showcase his individual brilliance...but the cool thing is, as he's shown, he'd happily go in the other direction and be only "all-star level" in what he personally showed, if that's what was working for the team.

On that note: There's a lot to think about, about what it says that the same guy who was so unprofessional in Minnesota, and who both Chicago and Philadelphia decided they would be better off without, is also the guy doing this. Frankly, it may mean that Butler's relationship with the Heat is destined to end ugly too.

But right now, man, he's something else.

[Doctor MJ]

An interesting thought is if Butler somehow keeps up this level of play throughout the series and Miami end up winning, would he be #1? As a precedent there is Dirk in 2011. He had a comprable regular season to Jimmy had this year and even in the play-offs he wasn't a statistical monster but he was the best player in the Finals and beat a juggernaut LeBron/Wade Heat team. Butler leading this young Heat team past the LeBron/AD Lakers would be a comparable achievement imo.

On the other hand Dirk's main competition was also LeBron, but he didn't show up to his usual level in the Finals in 2011. This year LeBron has been playing like the clear best player in the league and unless the next 2 games are stinkers I'm not sure knocking this version of LeBron off the #1 spot will be as likely as with the chokier 2011 version of LeBron.

To your question: Absolutely.

I want to be clear that he wouldn't be my #1 necessarily if they win the title, but if Game 6 and 7 looked like his performance in Games 3 & 5 and the Heat won, I'd expect to put him #1.

Re: Dirk. Very different circumstance. I had Dirk as a major MVP candidate that year before he went down to injury. When he played, he was clearly having impact as good as anyone in the league at that time (though not as much impact as LeBron had in Cleveland). What they were doing was working because of him, and so when that became enough to beat all comers, he was the natural POY in my book.

Did I think he was actually a more capable overall player than LeBron? No. But he was more effective in Dallas that year than LeBron was in Miami. Miami LeBron was in the process of realizing he still had some things to figure out.

[Doctor MJ]

At the same time, Dirk didn't directly outplay two MVP candidates performing at their peak level in the Finals while playing on a depleted team and getting more defensive attention while having a harder defensive assignment.

If you didn't have Butler in your Top 5 most of the year but are considering putting him in the Top 5 because he is playing like the best player in the league at the biggest stage, then why not put him at #1, since he is playing like the best player in the league on the biggest stage?

This, and yeah that's where I'm at in a nutshell.

[Doctor MJ]

At the same time, Dirk didn't directly outplay two MVP candidates performing at their peak level in the Finals while playing on a depleted team and getting more defensive attention while having a harder defensive assignment.

If you didn't have Butler in your Top 5 most of the year but are considering putting him in the Top 5 because he is playing like the best player in the league at the biggest stage, then why not put him at #1, since he is playing like the best player in the league on the biggest stage?

Outside of game 3 where Butler outplayed LeBron, LeBron has matched him or been better than Butler in all the other games, don't see how Butler is the overall best player in the Finals.

Butler has a bigger playmaking burden. Butler has more assists. Butler has less turnovers. Butler has been significantly better at drawing fouls. Butler has played almost 4 more minutes per game this series. Butler is defending harder matchups more consistently. Butler is being defended by better defenders more consistently and receiving more focus. Butler second best player is strictly a 3pt shooter, not a guy that puts up 26 ppg on 71%TS and plays DPOY defense. Butler is playing with less help on both ends in general and a more inexperienced overall team. Butler has had to make bigger adjustments in this series because his team has been playing without a 20/7 guy in Goran that was a key part of how the Heat ran their offense, and Bam missed times as well.

Well said. This is how I see it too.

Man, you're on fire right now limbo.

[Doctor MJ]

Whenever James puts up numbers it seems as if his teammates start stinking it up. It's the Westbrook effect. It's why the numbers James puts up need to be met with skepticism; it's a pattern with him. Big numbers don't equal winning basketball. Too many examples in history show this but people still keep falling for it.

Correlation is not causation.

LeBron looks to score more when the other options aren't working. He goes into a more Westbrookian mode when he sees that everything else isn't working, and he's doing it right now with a success rate that utterly dwarfs anything Westbrook was ever capable of.

I mean I just look at LeBron right now and it's like he can get either a) a good shot or b) draw a foul literally whenever he wants when he's not tired. More so than I've ever seen from him before. It's a work of art and we need to be appreciative.

Butler feels like he's completely in the zone in a way we don't often see, but LeBron looks like he's mastered the game and the only thing he's missing is his former explosion. I've got nothing but respect for what LeBron's doing right now.

[Doctor MJ]

Outside of game 3 where Butler outplayed LeBron, LeBron has matched him or been better than Butler in all the other games, don't see how Butler is the overall best player in the Finals.

Butler has a bigger playmaking burden. Butler has more assists. Butler has less turnovers. Butler has been significantly better at drawing fouls. Butler has played almost 4 more minutes per game this series. Butler is defending harder matchups more consistently. Butler is being defended by better defenders more consistently and receiving more focus. Butler second best player is strictly a 3pt shooter, not a guy that puts up 26 ppg on 71%TS and plays DPOY defense. Butler is playing with less help on both ends in general and a more inexperienced overall team. Butler has had to make bigger adjustments in this series because his team has been playing without a 20/7 guy in Goran that was a key part of how the Heat ran their offense, and Bam missed times as well.

I can do the same song and dance for LeBron. Butler has been phenomenal but like I said, outside of game 3 LeBron has been better or matched him. Even last night seems like a winning bias thing.

I'd like to see the same "song and dance" from you Paulie.

Not being snide at all, and not really even being skeptical. I'd like to chew on how you'd state things analogously.

I'll say that the way limbo put read to me like painting a picture of things rather than a list of stats, so if all you saw was a barrage of factoids, you might give it another read. limbo (and I) might be wrong, but there is something that's making us think like this based on what we're seeing.

[Jordan Syndrome]

Whenever James puts up numbers it seems as if his teammates start stinking it up. It's the Westbrook effect. It's why the numbers James puts up need to be met with skepticism; it's a pattern with him. Big numbers don't equal winning basketball. Too many examples in history show this but people still keep falling for it.

Correlation is not causation.

LeBron looks to score more when the other options aren't working. He goes into a more Westbrookian mode when he sees that everything else isn't working, and he's doing it right now with a success rate that utterly dwarfs anything Westbrook was ever capable of.

I mean I just look at LeBron right now and it's like he can get either a) a good shot or b) draw a foul literally whenever he wants when he's not tired. More so than I've ever seen from him before. It's a work of art and we need to be appreciative.

Butler feels like he's completely in the zone in a way we don't often see, but LeBron looks like he's mastered the game and the only thing he's missing is his former explosion. I've got nothing but respect for what LeBron's doing right now.

I was going to comment here after the game but I knew my comment would get buried. Your post here hits a few points I was thinking and it seems like a good time for me to make the following comment.

The game LeBron played last night was one of the best games I have ever seen in the finals. It's up there with his best, Jordan's best, Magic's best and Butlers last night and game 3.

It truly is a shame that..."trolls" come in to harp on LeBron James after his team loses without having the maturity while showing a complete lack of appreciation for the game we love so much. This was a game for the ages, it contained two of the best individual final performances of all-time, appreciate it.

[WarriorGM]

Whenever James puts up numbers it seems as if his teammates start stinking it up. It's the Westbrook effect. It's why the numbers James puts up need to be met with skepticism; it's a pattern with him. Big numbers don't equal winning basketball. Too many examples in history show this but people still keep falling for it.

Correlation is not causation.

LeBron looks to score more when the other options aren't working. He goes into a more Westbrookian mode when he sees that everything else isn't working, and he's doing it right now with a success rate that utterly dwarfs anything Westbrook was ever capable of.

I mean I just look at LeBron right now and it's like he can get either a) a good shot or b) draw a foul literally whenever he wants when he's not tired. More so than I've ever seen from him before. It's a work of art and we need to be appreciative.

Butler feels like he's completely in the zone in a way we don't often see, but LeBron looks like he's mastered the game and the only thing he's missing is his former explosion. I've got nothing but respect for what LeBron's doing right now.

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions. There are people here claiming he was as good as or better than Butler. No he wasn't. He lost.

It becomes clear one of the premises is wrong. After watching this rodeo for the umpteenth time people should have realized by now that LeBron dominating the ball is NOT the path to success. Against good opposition the team is already one step closer to a loss if that happens. The key for the Lakers will be Anthony Davis and the other guy who can activate him, Rondo. If LeBron overshadows those guys this is going to be a tighter finish that Lakers fans are hoping for.

[Jaivl]

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions.

??? No, it does not.

[PaulieWal]

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions.

??? No, it does not.

I don't know what that poster is talking about. First of all LeBron was the only reason that game was even close tonight last night. And he only took what 21 shots? And hit 15 of them. Secondly, the Lakers lost this game because their role players were absolutely trash last night. LeBron and AD did what they had to do but if your role players stink it up like that, it's hard to win. Not because he's Westbrook or overshadowing the others. How do people even come up with analysis like that?

[PaulieWal]

Butler has a bigger playmaking burden. Butler has more assists. Butler has less turnovers. Butler has been significantly better at drawing fouls. Butler has played almost 4 more minutes per game this series. Butler is defending harder matchups more consistently. Butler is being defended by better defenders more consistently and receiving more focus. Butler second best player is strictly a 3pt shooter, not a guy that puts up 26 ppg on 71%TS and plays DPOY defense. Butler is playing with less help on both ends in general and a more inexperienced overall team. Butler has had to make bigger adjustments in this series because his team has been playing without a 20/7 guy in Goran that was a key part of how the Heat ran their offense, and Bam missed times as well.

I can do the same song and dance for LeBron. Butler has been phenomenal but like I said, outside of game 3 LeBron has been better or matched him. Even last night seems like a winning bias thing.

I'd like to see the same "song and dance" from you Paulie.

Not being snide at all, and not really even being skeptical. I'd like to chew on how you'd state things analogously.

I'll say that the way limbo put read to me like painting a picture of things rather than a list of stats, so if all you saw was a barrage of factoids, you might give it another read. limbo (and I) might be wrong, but there is something that's making us think like this based on what we're seeing.

I don't have time for a lengthy reply but outside of game 3, LEBron has masterfully controlled the Lakers offense in this series. As a playmaker he's been better than Jimmy, it's not his fault that the Lakers role players have not showed up in this series for the most part. In games 4 and 5, LeBron was the only reason the games were even close and in game 4, he gave them the offensive jolt in the 3rd and then scored or assisted on 14 straight points in the 4th to give Lakers the lead. Defensively he's been pretty damn good with his switches and rim protection. He's guarded Butler in spurts to slow him down as well. And I so strongly disagree that Jimmy has gone up against better defenders outside of AD in game 4 and last night. Jimmy has seen a steady dose of Caruso, Morris, Kuzma, and KCP.

If you want to tell me that Butler's carrying a heavier load, I absolutely agree but that's by necessity. LeBron is still playing heavy minutes and doing his best to get AD and the others going, he can't make people hit wide open shots right? As a scorer he's been on fire for the most part in this series. He's doing it all no? Playmaking, scoring, defense? And again outside of game 3, it never felt that Butler was outplaying him. So to me saying that Butler has been the best player in this series is arguable but I comfortable has LEBron as #1 in the series.

[70sFan]

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions.

??? No, it does not.

Only Curry gets it done in proper way

[PaulieWal]

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions.

??? No, it does not.

Only Curry gets it done in proper way

Not looking to open a can of worms or derail but I felt LeBron was better than Curry in all 4 of his matchups against him but Curry had the better team 3 of the 4 times. The one time they were evenly matched went to the final seconds of a game 7. Such is life.

[Doctor MJ]

Whenever James puts up numbers it seems as if his teammates start stinking it up. It's the Westbrook effect. It's why the numbers James puts up need to be met with skepticism; it's a pattern with him. Big numbers don't equal winning basketball. Too many examples in history show this but people still keep falling for it.

Correlation is not causation.

LeBron looks to score more when the other options aren't working. He goes into a more Westbrookian mode when he sees that everything else isn't working, and he's doing it right now with a success rate that utterly dwarfs anything Westbrook was ever capable of.

I mean I just look at LeBron right now and it's like he can get either a) a good shot or b) draw a foul literally whenever he wants when he's not tired. More so than I've ever seen from him before. It's a work of art and we need to be appreciative.

Butler feels like he's completely in the zone in a way we don't often see, but LeBron looks like he's mastered the game and the only thing he's missing is his former explosion. I've got nothing but respect for what LeBron's doing right now.

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions. There are people here claiming he was as good as or better than Butler. No he wasn't. He lost.

It becomes clear one of the premises is wrong. After watching this rodeo for the umpteenth time people should have realized by now that LeBron dominating the ball is NOT the path to success. Against good opposition the team is already one step closer to a loss if that happens. The key for the Lakers will be Anthony Davis and the other guy who can activate him, Rondo. If LeBron overshadows those guys this is going to be a tighter finish that Lakers fans are hoping for.

You're not chewing on the stuff I pointed out.

And yes, AD will absolutely be key, and big part of that is his health. AD wasn't hobbling around out there because LeBron was dominating the ball.

[PaulieWal]

Correlation is not causation.

LeBron looks to score more when the other options aren't working. He goes into a more Westbrookian mode when he sees that everything else isn't working, and he's doing it right now with a success rate that utterly dwarfs anything Westbrook was ever capable of.

I mean I just look at LeBron right now and it's like he can get either a) a good shot or b) draw a foul literally whenever he wants when he's not tired. More so than I've ever seen from him before. It's a work of art and we need to be appreciative.

Butler feels like he's completely in the zone in a way we don't often see, but LeBron looks like he's mastered the game and the only thing he's missing is his former explosion. I've got nothing but respect for what LeBron's doing right now.

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions. There are people here claiming he was as good as or better than Butler. No he wasn't. He lost.

It becomes clear one of the premises is wrong. After watching this rodeo for the umpteenth time people should have realized by now that LeBron dominating the ball is NOT the path to success. Against good opposition the team is already one step closer to a loss if that happens. The key for the Lakers will be Anthony Davis and the other guy who can activate him, Rondo. If LeBron overshadows those guys this is going to be a tighter finish that Lakers fans are hoping for.

You're not chewing on the stuff I pointed out.

And yes, AD will absolutely be key, and big part of that is his health. AD wasn't hobbling around out there because LeBron was dominating the ball.

Actually LeBron took only 20 shots last night and the last shot he took was that heave with 1.5 seconds left to win the game. So he took 19 shots for all intents and purposes. I don't want to be too aggressive, but that analysis is so far off. I don't even know what to say or want to reply to validate it lol.

[Doctor MJ]

I can do the same song and dance for LeBron. Butler has been phenomenal but like I said, outside of game 3 LeBron has been better or matched him. Even last night seems like a winning bias thing.

I'd like to see the same "song and dance" from you Paulie.

Not being snide at all, and not really even being skeptical. I'd like to chew on how you'd state things analogously.

I'll say that the way limbo put read to me like painting a picture of things rather than a list of stats, so if all you saw was a barrage of factoids, you might give it another read. limbo (and I) might be wrong, but there is something that's making us think like this based on what we're seeing.

I don't have time for a lengthy reply but outside of game 3, LEBron has masterfully controlled the Lakers offense in this series. As a playmaker he's been better than Jimmy, it's not his fault that the Lakers role players have not showed up in this series for the most part. In games 4 and 5, LeBron was the only reason the games were even close and in game 4, he gave them the offensive jolt in the 3rd and then scored or assisted on 14 straight points in the 4th to give Lakers the lead. Defensively he's been pretty damn good with his switches and rim protection. He's guarded Butler in spurts to slow him down as well. And I so strongly disagree that Jimmy has gone up against better defenders outside of AD in game 4 and last night. Jimmy has seen a steady dose of Caruso, Morris, Kuzma, and KCP.

If you want to tell me that Butler's carrying a heavier load, I absolutely agree but that's by necessity. LeBron is still playing heavy minutes and doing his best to get AD and the others going, he can't make people hit wide open shots right? As a scorer he's been on fire for the most part in this series. He's doing it all no? Playmaking, scoring, defense? And again outside of game 3, it never felt that Butler was outplaying him. So to me saying that Butler has been the best player in this series is arguable but I comfortable has LEBron as #1 in the series.

Thank you, and I do see where you're coming from.

One thing I'll say about breaking it down game by game is that I try not to get too attached to things.

LeBron was absolutely better than Butler in Game 1 & Game 2 before Butler figured some things out. That's 2 wins for the Lakers making it more likely that the Lakers win the series, and if the Lakers win the series it's going to be pretty much trivial to argue that LeBron was better than Butler over the entirety of the series.

Games 3-5 though tell a story of Butler being incredible except when AD is really on his defensive game, and while that occurs, Miami is winning.

If Miami ends up winning the series taking 4 out of the last 5 games, while the issue of AD's health is a real thing not to be dismissed, it really isn't going to make a lot of sense to point to LeBron's edge in the first two games as the deciding factor here.

All this to say that while I think it's fine if you just think LeBron was more impressive in Game 5, and if you did so I'd expect you'd think LeBron's been better in 4 out of 5 games, I don't really see the LeBron vs Butler debate in terms of "4-1" or "3-2".

[Doctor MJ]

LeBron has this habit of looking absolutely wonderful but it not translating to a dominating win. Trying to sort that out leads to a jumble of contradictions. There are people here claiming he was as good as or better than Butler. No he wasn't. He lost.

It becomes clear one of the premises is wrong. After watching this rodeo for the umpteenth time people should have realized by now that LeBron dominating the ball is NOT the path to success. Against good opposition the team is already one step closer to a loss if that happens. The key for the Lakers will be Anthony Davis and the other guy who can activate him, Rondo. If LeBron overshadows those guys this is going to be a tighter finish that Lakers fans are hoping for.

You're not chewing on the stuff I pointed out.

And yes, AD will absolutely be key, and big part of that is his health. AD wasn't hobbling around out there because LeBron was dominating the ball.

Actually LeBron took only 20 shots last night and the last shot he took was that heave with 1.5 seconds left to win the game. So he took 19 shots for all intents and purposes. I don't want to be too aggressive, but that analysis is so far off. I don't even know what to say or want to reply to validate it lol.

So, I want to be clear here that you're really arguing with WarriorGM rather than me. I was accepting his description because I saw truth in it, but I wouldn't want to try to make a point around it.

What is the case is that Van Gundy was saying "Not LeBron" repeatedly for a reason at the end of the game. If you look at the Laker stats in the 4th quarter, LeBron's doing everything for the team including taking a lot of shots. I'm not complaining about any of it, but it was certainly the LeBron show out there at the end.

You're right that LeBron didn't actually take that many shots overall though. It's crazy to think that the whole reason folks think LeBron was dominating his team's offense is because he made so many of those shots. Had he made the shots at a more Iverson level, he'd have been the 2nd leading scorer on his own team and the criticisms would be entirely different, but they'd be no less loud.

[Doctor MJ]

btw: I can't help but notice that at this point the Heat have roughly the same killer ORtg they had in any other series.

While our evaluation of AD can talk about how good he seems to be when 100%, in terms of damning Giannis' defense, it's starting to feel like we just need to see the Heat as a robust, elite offense that you can't expect to really stop, which is a very different thing from the "Top 10 but not Top 5" tier of offense we saw them as going into the playoffs.