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Which PG to start a franchise in order...

Kidd
Payton
Isiah

for me. I expect the consensus order to be reversed.

Kidd over Payton - rebounding, playmaking in transition, not much worse playoff scoring, much better longetivity, defense is more or less a wash IMO

Payton over Isiah - defense, more success as clear-cut #1, more impact, Payton's a failure in the playoffs offensively but Isiah isn't very efficient either so no big factor scoring-wise.

Kidd
Payton
Isiah

Payton
Isiah
Kidd


Defense isn't a wash, clear edge to Payton both offensively and defensively. And, Isiah's defense was a lot better than most posters think. Kidd's rebounding is a factor as bastillon said and I think it's reasonably close between Isiah and Kidd. But while all three are great in the open court where Kidd obviously shines, Isiah has the edge in halfcourt sets; just not enough of one to compensate for Payton's better defense and efficiency.

Penbeast0, I can tell you rank Payton very high. what do you think about his playoff struggles ? he had two postseasons with >52% TS (I'm not considering 04-07 period, where he struggled epically anyway). aside from that ?



Payton's scoring was non-existent pretty much his entire playoff career.

also, what about epic meltdowns in '94 and '95 ? why does Payton get away with this ? how about Payton's playoff career after Kemp left ? where was Payton's better offense than Kidd's ?

his offense in the playoffs was just poor, never at the all-star level aside from '96 and '98.

Comparing Kidd and Payton to isiah is like comparing Erving and Pippen to Bird. Isiah is widely considered one of the top three to five point guards of all time. Payton and Kidd are probably 6-10 by most accounts, with Payton not even appearing on some lists.

Simply put, Isiah is exactly what you want in a point, or any player really - capability to lead a team to multiple titles. While he had some very good teammates, most would have been footnotes in NBA history had they never come together on the Pistons. He never played with a Pippen, Kareem/Worthy, McHale/Parish, etc., in a very competitive era. He's the only top 50 player to win multiple titles without another top 50 player.

In fairness to Payton and Kidd, they never had really elite teammates for a long time either. Kidd has played with some really good Dallas teams and has another chance this year to win it. That will tell a a lot, and if he wins a couple of rings he is due credit, though he is clearly not top dog on that team. Similarly, Payton played with really good Seattle teams but never put them over the top. He got a cheap ring with Shaq and Wade in Miami but somehow managed to lose with the 2004 Lakers, a huge favorite in the finals. Frankly, neither guy did it when it counts.

I will say there are some teams that might be better served by Kidd if they are really loaded. But if you assume the franchise personnel is anywhere near normal, Isiah is clearly the guy most capable of getting them to the top.

Payton
Kidd
Isiah:

Laimbeer...when Glove was on the Lakers, he was fourth in the pecking order. It wasn't really his position to "do it when it counted" because Kobe, Shaq and to a lesser extent, Malone, were supposed to make the success easy. Payton was fantastic with the Sonics in the Finals against the Bulls, as was Kemp, but you can't hold it against someone that they lost to a Jordan-led team. Payton had an excellent career, was one of the best defensive point guards ever, and was efficient offensively when he posted up. That said, for chemistry reasons (he was cocky and too arrogant for his own good), he doesn't get top billing on my list....

Kidd
Payton
Thomas

Isiah had the best 'prime' years but i'd go...

Kidd - Best passer and great defender. Led 2 teams to the finals.
Isiah - 2 championships. Did everything well.
Payton - Best defender. Good numbers. Led Sonics to the finals.

sp6r=underrated wrote:Payton
Kidd
Isiah:

why ? I'd like to hear your reasoning.

also, couple of interesting things

MVP Shares:
30. Jason Kidd 0.933
36. Gary Payton 0.823
62. Isiah Thomas* 0.318

all-star games:
Jason Kidd 10
Isiah Thomas 12
Gary Payton 9

all-NBA teams: total---1st---2nd---3rd
Jason Kidd 6 5 1
Isiah Thomas 5 3 2
Gary Payton 9 2 5 2

all-defensive teams: total-1st-2nd
Jason Kidd 9 4 5
Gary Payton 9 9

All three are close.

Kidd
Payton
Thomas

bastillon wrote:Penbeast0, I can tell you rank Payton very high. what do you think about his playoff struggles ? he had two postseasons with >52% TS (I'm not considering 04-07 period, where he struggled epically anyway). aside from that ?

Code: Select all

year    TS%
 91    .430
 92    .482
 93    .466
 94    .511
 95    .491
 97    .506
 00    .518
 02    .467
 03    .459

Payton's scoring was non-existent pretty much his entire playoff career.

also, what about epic meltdowns in '94 and '95 ? why does Payton get away with this ? how about Payton's playoff career after Kemp left ? where was Payton's better offense than Kidd's ?

his offense in the playoffs was just poor, never at the all-star level aside from '96 and '98.

I'd like to see this addressed. The three guys tend to have pretty comparable regular seasons stats, but come playoff time Payton's clearly got worse than the other two. There's also the issue that Payton's Sonics tended to get upset in the playoffs in his prime.

Interestingly also, Isiah's stats are the ones that tended to go up in the playoffs, and he's also the one with a team tendency to overachieve in the playoffs.

My first instinct is:

1. Isiah
2. Kidd
3. Payton

Isiah Thomas
Jason Kidd



Gary Payton

Isiah and Kidd are by far better players and leaders than Payton who was a better defender...Also people forget how good Isiah was at his prime...

Kidd
Isiah
Payton