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It takes great basketball skills and talent to be super efficient and productive. There are only 19 players who have finished in the top 2 in PER over the past 30 seasons. These players performed at an elite level over the course of an entire season, not just one game or one month.

These are the 19 most talented basketball players over the past 30 seasons.
6 guards, 9 forwards, 4 centers

guards – Jordan, Magic, Wade, Dr J, Chris Paul, Vince
forwards – Bird, Duncan, LeBron, Garnett, Barkely, Karl Malone, Nowitzki, McGrady, Dantley
centers – Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Moses Malone

I think Durant will finish with a top 2 PER sometime in the next 5 seasons.
Vince obviously has had a ton of talent especially when he was with the Raptors.
Dantley might be the most underrated player ever. He was an extremely efficient and gifted scorer. He was 6’5” and twice averaged over 30 ppg with a TS% of over .650.

spurket wrote:It takes great basketball skills and talent to be super efficient and productive. There are only 19 players who have finished in the top 2 in PER over the past 30 seasons. These players performed at an elite level over the course of an entire season, not just one game or one month.

These are the 19 most talented basketball players over the past 30 seasons.
6 guards, 9 forwards, 4 centers

guards – Jordan, Magic, Wade, Dr J,Chris Paul,Vince
forwards – Bird, Duncan, LeBron, Garnett, Barkely, Karl Malone, Nowitzki, McGrady, Dantley
centers – Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson, Moses Malone

I think Durant will finish with a top 2 PER sometime in the next 5 seasons.
Vince obviously has had a ton of talent especially when he was with the Raptors.
Dantley might be the most underrated player ever. He was an extremely efficient and gifted scorer. He was 6’5” and twice averaged over 30 ppg with a TS% of over .650.

You forget Kobe Bryant.He was better talent than Carter at least.Not even close.
I'm a LeBron fan and I don't like Kobe but I accept that he is the 2nd greatest SG ever.Jerry West is 3rd.

KING JAMES1978 wrote:You forget Kobe Bryant.He was better talent than Carter at least.Not even close.
I'm a LeBron fan and I don't like Kobe but I accept that he is the 2nd greatest SG ever.Jerry West is 3rd.

It looks like from his phrasing of this, he's basing it on player efficiency rating rather than reputation.

Kobe Bryant >>>>> Wade, Paul, J, Carter

I'm completely serious. How about determining your hilarious ranking based on actual skill, and play spanning more than just one meaningless season? You have zero credibility. Go back to playing with barbie dolls, Stacey.

Kobe fans will rage at this thread.

It is interesting though that only 19 players filled in 60 possible slots, tells you that when a guy dominates in basketball, its usually pretty consistent. Not a lot of room for fluke career years.

Also in Kobe's defense he has finished in the top 5-10 in PER for pretty much every season since 2000. He has just never been extremely dominant in comparison to his competition. His prime overlapped prime Shaq and prime LeBron, who have arguably the best 2 primes of any 2 players in the past 30 years (not to mention prime Duncan who was no slouch).

I rage because I haven't had my coffee. :[

Thread FAIL!! How can you make a thread about Talent and Skill (No Stats) and add PER to the equation? It's Either Or...If it's talent then Kobe is on top..if it's PER then Jordan, Lebron, Shaq etc... will be on top.. You can't mix this shi* up like that. That's why Kobe vs Lebron threads get so heated. Kobe is supertalented and Lebron is superblessed with being bigger(size) with his talent thus producing better stats but not as "talented and skilled" as Kobe.

Also more Kobe defense, his 05-06 PER is good enough for #1 in the NBA 7 of the last 30 years despite not finishing top 2 once during his prime.

What this tells me (as I already explained) is he played against some of the most dominant peak players in history, in Shaq, Duncan and LeBron.

PER is just a measure of you against the rest of the league, comparing PER's in different years only tells you how dominant a player was in relation to his peers, not how good a player actually was.

If you throw prime Kobe into the early 80's NBA, its entirely possible he leads the league 3 years straight in PER.

KING JAMES1978 wrote:You forget Kobe Bryant.He was better talent than Carter at least.Not even close.

Carter was the better talent due to his greater athleticism and better hands. Bryant is/was a great athlete but not in Carter's league, and his hands are relatively small. That hurts his ballhandling. Again: he's still a great ballhandler but guys like Jordan and Carter are a notch above as it seems that the ball is glued to their hands resulting in less turnovers. Kobe's career TOV%: 11.1, Carter's TOV%: 9.7

The difference between them and the reason why Kobe became the better player is their respective mindset: Kobe's ultra-ambitious, Carter never had that hunger to be one of the best. That made Kobe max out his talent while Carter could have been greater but settled to be only a good NBA player what made him the lesser player in the end.

Again: In terms of pure talent, Bryant's not in the same league as Carter, McGrady and LeBron. But his efforts make him the better player than both Vince and T-Mac and a player on par with LeBron for several years.

Masigond wrote:

KING JAMES1978 wrote:You forget Kobe Bryant.He was better talent than Carter at least.Not even close.

Carter was the better talent due to his greater athleticism and better hands. Bryant is/was a great athlete but not in Carter's league, and his hands are relatively small. That hurts his ballhandling. Again: he's still a great ballhandler but guys like Jordan and Carter are a notch above as it seems that the ball is glued to their hands resulting in less turnovers. Kobe's career TOV%: 11.1, Carter's TOV%: 9.7

The difference between them and the reason why Kobe became the better player is their respective mindset: Kobe's ultra-ambitious, Carter never had that hunger to be one of the best. That made Kobe max out his talent while Carter could have been greater but settled to be only a good NBA player what made him the lesser player in the end.

Again: In terms of pure talent, Bryant's not in the same league as Carter, McGrady and LeBron. But his efforts make him the better player than both Vince and T-Mac and a player on par with LeBron for several years.

+1. Kobe is all about will and determination. Carter was almost as good as him back in the early 2000s without even trying. All talent, and no working hard. Same goes for T-Mac, as you said, of course. LeBron... I guess I'd say he's more athletic than talented. But he puts more passion in the game than VC and McGrady.

Kobe is definitely among the best 19 players of the past 30 years, but NOT talent-wise.

danidr wrote:

Masigond wrote:

KING JAMES1978 wrote:You forget Kobe Bryant.He was better talent than Carter at least.Not even close.

Carter was the better talent due to his greater athleticism and better hands. Bryant is/was a great athlete but not in Carter's league, and his hands are relatively small. That hurts his ballhandling. Again: he's still a great ballhandler but guys like Jordan and Carter are a notch above as it seems that the ball is glued to their hands resulting in less turnovers. Kobe's career TOV%: 11.1, Carter's TOV%: 9.7

The difference between them and the reason why Kobe became the better player is their respective mindset: Kobe's ultra-ambitious, Carter never had that hunger to be one of the best. That made Kobe max out his talent while Carter could have been greater but settled to be only a good NBA player what made him the lesser player in the end.

Again: In terms of pure talent, Bryant's not in the same league as Carter, McGrady and LeBron. But his efforts make him the better player than both Vince and T-Mac and a player on par with LeBron for several years.

+1. Kobe is all about will and determination. Carter was almost as good as him back in the early 2000s without even trying. All talent, and no working hard. Same goes for T-Mac, as you said, of course. LeBron... I guess I'd say he's more athletic than talented. But he puts more passion in the game than VC and McGrady.

Kobe is definitely among the best 19 players of the past 30 years, but NOT talent-wise.

..I don't even sig people but damn man WTF?

danidr wrote:Kobe is definitely among the best 19 players of the past 30 years, but NOT talent-wise.

That's ridiculous.

Boston fan saying:

no Kobe, no thread

Now STFU and GTFO. Shame on you! lol

rumdiary wrote:Boston fan saying:

no Kobe, no thread

Now STFU and GTFO. Shame on you! lol

Boston fan again saying: This.

danidr wrote:LeBron... I guess I'd say he's more athletic than talented.

In my opinion athleticism is a category of talent just as other skills that some people would call more relevant for basketball.

Shaq obviously doesn't have as great basketball skills as Yao (who is a great shooter while Shaq can't shoot for his life outside the low post) but his peak was way higher nevertheless because of his massive frame combined with amazingly good speed and agility (at least before he ballooned), and he has great hands that made it easy for him to catch even not very accurate passes with only one hand. Shaq's rather one-dimensional, but this talent is that great that he didn't need many others.

To make a point for Kobe: He's for sure the greater basketball talent than most big men. His ballhandling is better, he can shoot better than most of them, his body control and variability are arguably among the best ever. Regarding that he would be one of the 19 most talented players in the last 30 years. But as there are several players who top his capabilities (for example by size, what makes players like Shaq and Duncan at least just as effective as Bryant, but with less effort) you can for sure argue that he is not among the very best in terms of talent. McGrady and Vince both are more athletic, it was easier for them than for Kobe to get to the basket, both have better hands, arguably have the better long distance shot, and in my opinion they are even the better playmakers with a better sense for their teammates.
Now you can argue if will, determination and durability (factors that McGrady and Carter are lacking to a certain degree) are signs of talent as well. If yes, then Kobe makes up in terms of talent. If not, he is for sure the less talented man who (as I said before) nevertheless became the way better player because of his efforts on the court.

These kinds of threads are pretty funny. This is about talent, not athleticism. How can you not place Kobe amongst the 19 most talented players in the past 30 years. Talent is the skill that you have (including your athletic abilities, work ethic, everything together), not the results that you get from that skill. What can't Kobe do on the basketball court?? Pretty much nothing.

I'm going to do a new list with (4 players from each position except for the Center)
Pg: Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Steve Nash, Magic Johnson
Sg: Kobe Bryant, Vince Carter, Jordan, JR Smith,
Sf: Tracy McGrady, Lebron James, Larry Bird, Kevin Durant,
Pf: Kevin Garnett, Dirk, Chris Webber, Rasheed Wallace
C: Hakeem, David Robinson, Ewing

Now compare that to my list for the most successful players in the past 30 years
Pg: Magic Johnson, Stockton, Thomas, Payton
Sg: Jordan, Bryant, Wade, Drexler
Sf: Bird, Pippen, Lebron, Dominque,
Pf: Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Garnett
C: Shaq, Hakeem, David Robinson

Kobe Bryant is the most skilled basketball 2guard of all time. Yes more than Jordan. But hes not even close to the player Jordan was, and never will be. Heck right now if it wasn't for the handcheck rules, Wizards Jordan might be just as good as Kobe Bryant.

Guys like Deron Williams, CP3, Nash (maybe), Lebron, Durant, and Dirk (maybe) might climb their respective ranks.

As for VC, Tmac, and Rasheed, these guys are a waste of talent.
Just because you have the talent doesn't mean that you will become successful.

People tend to overrate Carter on the raptors, and underrate him on the nets. I find that quite funny, because his skill level actually improved once he got on the nets. He became a smarter player as his decision making got better, he drew fouls at a better rate, his three-point shooting got better (despite the slight drop in percentages), passing got better, rebounding got better, defensive awareness got better, toughness got better, leadership got better, even intangibles got better (taking charges, diving for loose balls). Too bad his athleticism didn't get better or even stayed close to the level it was in 2000.

Tmac is probably the biggest offseason slouch next to Shaq in NBA history. Even the last two years when hes claimed to work hard with Glover in chicago, his workouts haven't been anything spectacular. If this is the hardest hes ever worked, its pretty disgraceful considering hes a professional athlete. I put in more time at the gym than Tmac does. I mean who posts videos of themselves working out with 30 lbs and acting like its 500 lbs. If he took care of his body from the start, he would be better than Kobe Bryant right now.

Rasheed "The master of the tech" Wallace, can do just about anything when he puts his mind to it. The guy is lazy as f*ck but, he can do it all when he puts his mind to it. Even this season in Boston, its pretty much a microcosm of his career, 95% of the game he will barely be able to run freethrow line to freethrow line. But you might just get a glipse of Rasheed in the post in either end, where it is a beauty to see. How many big men can do it on both ends of the floor, work in the post with either hand, shoot on the perimeter with either hand, and guarantee timely victories in the playoffs while swearing and yelling at the refs?? Not too many.

The OP should have titled this thread differently to make it clear that we are talking about PER. This is just inviting criticism.

Good to see Hollinger has an understudy.

Kobe fans and their enmity with stats. It's actually kinda cute.

Hollinger needs to be dragged through the streets and strung up for infesting basketball analysis with his stupid made up stat and then sending out hordes of well meaning amateurs confusing it with some sort of absolute grade of ability.

Change the title of this thing to the "19 players most valued by Hollinger's PER stat in the past 30 years" and then we can talk.