RealGM

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 6:48 pm**

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '91-92. Some pointers:

-Change in schedule. We will now operate by splitting the week into thirds: Mon-Wed, Wed-Fri, Fri-Mon. I will label each thread with it's deadline.

-The voting panel is not officially closed. However, if you'd like to be a part of it, contact me - more dedicated, knowledgeable voters will always be wanted.

-This includes both regular and post-season. You should be weighing both in to some degree, and should not be ranking one star over another just because of how far each got in the playoffs.

-Vote sincerely. Do not move a player down in your voting to give another player an advantage. I would encourage every voter to give some explanations while they do their voting - but particularly if you have a top 5 that deviates strongly with the norm and you haven't expressed your thoughts on it earlier in the thread. If I'm not satisfied, I may ask you for more of an explanation - and it may come to actually booting people out of the project.

Some things to start us off:

Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1992.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1992.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1992.html

Topics for '91-92

-Bulls repeat
-Blazers to finals, second time in three years
-Rodman and Willis go rebound crazy

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 6:59 pm**

Quick thoughts:

Ho Grant top 5 in WS/48

Timmy goes for 20 and 10, Mullin for 26, still got smoked in the POs.

Ricky Pierce had some seriously absurd usage rates.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 7:17 pm**

Thoughts and questions on this season
Malone turns in probably the best PS of his long career.
Terry Porter humiliates John Stockton
What are your thoughts on Drexler and the Blazers this year?

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 7:23 pm**

I have trouble allocating credit on that Blazer's team. They were just so damn good top to bottom. Sort of like the Blazers and Kings of the early 00s.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 7:27 pm**

Early rankings.

1. M.Jordan - Won League and Finals MVP (29.2 PER in Finals), Led in Win Shares on the season and WS per 48 minutes, Led in Season PER. Led the league in scoring in the season and playoffs. Was 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Playoff WS, All NBA 1st Team And Defense, Led the league in Scoring and won title the same year.

2. Karl Malone - Finished 4th in MVP Voting, was 2nd in WS in the season and 3rd in PER, Was 2nd in Playoff PER and 5th in Win Shares. All NBA 1st Team

3. David Robinson - Finished 3rd in MVP voting, was 4th in Win Shares, 2nd in PER on the season. All NBA 1st Team and 1st team Defense. DPOY

4. Clyde Drexler - Finished 2nd in MVP voting, All NBA 1st Team. 3rd in Playoff Win Shares and 4th in Playoff PER

5. Patrick Ewing - Finished 5th in MVP voting, 2nd in Defensive Rating, All NBA 2nd Team and 2nd Team Defense.

HM: Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen, Chris Mullin, John Stockton

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:19 pm**

1991-92 Candidates

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
====================================================================
Jordan   80  38.8  30.1  .579   6.4  6.1  2.3  0.9  2.5  17.7  27.7
Drexler  76  36.2  25.0  .560   6.6  6.7  1.8  0.9  3.2  12.8  23.6
Malone   81  37.7  28.0  .599  11.2  3.0  1.3  0.6  3.1  15.1  25.4
Pippen   82  38.6  21.0  .555   7.7  7.0  1.9  1.1  3.1  12.7  21.5
D-Rob    68  37.7  23.2  .597  12.2  2.7  2.3  4.5  2.7  13.9  27.5
Ewing    82  38.4  24.0  .563  11.2  1.9  1.1  3.0  2.5  13.0  22.8

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player   GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST  STL  BLK  TOV  WS    PER
===================================================================
Jordan   22  41.8  34.5  .571   6.2  5.8  2.0  0.7  3.7  4.1   27.2
Drexler  21  40.3  26.3  .553   7.4  7.0  1.5  1.0  2.8  3.4   22.8
Malone   16  43.0  29.1  .618  11.3  2.6  1.4  1.2  2.9  3.2   25.0
Pippen   22  40.9  19.5  .544   8.8  6.7  1.9  1.1  3.2  3.1   20.1
D-Rob    --  ----  ----  ----  ----  ---  ---  ---  ---  ---   ----
Ewing    12  40.2  22.7  .502  11.1  2.3  0.6  2.6  1.9  1.7   19.9

Awards Recognition

Code: Select all

Player      MVP     DPOY   All-NBA   All-Defense
================================================
Jordan      1       3      1st       1st
Drexler     2       -      1st       ---
D-Rob       3       1      1st       1st
Malone      4       6      1st       ---
Ewing       5       -      2nd       2nd
Pippen      9       3      2nd       1st

Early Rankings

Michael Jordan - Best two-way player, MVP, Finals MVP, blah, blah, blah.
Clyde Drexler - Hell of a season for Clyde the Glide. He was pretty kick ass in both the RS and PS. Led his team to the Finals and was the MVP runner-up, as well as getting recognition on the All-NBA 1st Team. The Blazers were certainly stacked, but he was the man on that team so he gets the glory. A bonefide #1 option and IIRC, he was considered one of the leagues best players back then.
Karl Malone - Another impressive year, and he was pretty phenomenal against the Blazers despite that poor game 1 performance, so I can't fault him for not taking his team deeper. Still, as impressive as he was, I think he's slightly below Drexler who didn't have Stockton there to make him look good.
Scottie Pippen - Great two-way play. Recognized (fairly) alongside Jordan as an elite defender in addition to being a fantastic play-maker and leader. Didn't quite get the MVP recognition, but that's kind of hard to do with Jordan on your team. I'm looking forward to hearing some more about the Finals though as from some research I've done it appears that Pippen was primarily guarding Drexler (and Drexler on Jordan?) and played a huge role in helping the Bulls win in the Finals.
David Robinson - Despite missing 14 games (and the PS) due to injury, he still put up great number and was recognized as the DPOY. I can't put him any higher though because in comparison to the others he was just out of the lineup too much, and chances are, he would have sucked in the PS anyway.

On a side note, why did Drexler's PER drop in the playoffs, and why is there such a large gap between he and Jordan? Does it really weigh scoring that heavily? All of his numbers, except for steals and TS%, improved in the playoffs. Jordan's numbers dropped almost everywhere (except scoring! wooooh) and yet, his PER went down less than Drexler's? That seems... odd.

I thought PER would be useful in telling me how one performed from RS to PS, but now I'm having my doubts. From looking at the numbers I would have expected Drexler's PER to be higher. Oh well.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:24 pm**

semi-sentient wrote:
Early Rankings

Michael Jordan - Best two-way player, MVP, Finals MVP, blah, blah, blah.

Clyde Drexler - Hell of a season for Clyde the Glide. He was pretty kick ass in both the RS and PS. Led his team to the Finals and was the MVP runner-up, as well as getting recognition on the All-NBA 1st Team. The Blazers were certainly stacked, but he was the man on that team so he gets the glory. A bonefide #1 option and IIRC, he was considered one of the leagues best players back then.

Karl Malone - Another impressive year, and he was pretty phenomenal against the Blazers despite that poor game 1 performance, so I can't fault him for not taking his team deeper. Still, as impressive as he was, I think he's slightly below Drexler who didn't have Stockton there to make him look good.

Scottie Pippen - Great two-way play. Recognized (fairly) alongside Jordan as an elite defender in addition to being a fantastic play-maker and leader. Didn't quite get the MVP recognition, but that's kind of hard to do with Jordan on your team. I'm looking forward to hearing some more about the Finals though as from some research I've done it appears that Pippen was primarily guarding Drexler (and Drexler on Jordan?) and played a huge role in helping the Bulls win in the Finals.

David Robinson - Despite missing 14 games (and the PS) due to injury, he still put up great number and was recognized as the DPOY. I can't put him any higher though because in comparison to the others he was just out of the lineup too much, and chances are, he would have sucked in the PS anyway.

On a side note, why did Drexler's PER drop in the playoffs, and why is there such a large gap between he and Jordan? Does it really weigh scoring that heavily? All of his numbers, except for steals and TS%, improved in the playoffs. Jordan's numbers dropped almost everywhere (except scoring! wooooh) and yet, his PER went down less than Drexler's? That seems... odd.

The only thing Stockton did in that series was forget to apply lube.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:29 pm**

I won't rank Hakeem because he didn't play in the playoffs and I'm not ranking those guys. noteworthy: Rockets 2-11 without him... and still ended up with .500 record.

1.MJ
2.Karl M
3.Rob
4.Ewing
5.Pippen

I don't know if I'll be here again so...

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:33 pm**

PER sucks for playoff runs really, especially when comparing it to how a guy did in the regular season because the "average" (15) player in the playoffs is a lot better.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:38 pm**

CellarDoor wrote:The only thing Stockton did in that series was forget to apply lube.

Oh, I never accused Stockton of being a great defender, and my comment was more about Stockton making it easier for Malone (on offense) throughout the season and not so much about a particular series.

Porter did wax that ass though.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:42 pm**

semi-sentient wrote:
CellarDoor wrote:The only thing Stockton did in that series was forget to apply lube.

Oh, I never accused Stockton of being a great defender, and my comment was more about Stockton making it easier for Malone (on offense) throughout the season and not so much about a particular series.

Porter did wax that ass though.

My father was a huge Stockton-Malone fan. I remember watching one of those games with him, can't remember which one it was at this point, and him looking like a cancer patient at Stockton's performance.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:48 pm**

I knew Stockton would do poorly in this project but I'm surprised at how bad he is doing
97: 3rd (1)
96: 0
95: 4th (2), 5th (1)
94: 0
93: 0

Admittedly, we are now approaching a massive five year stretch for him now, so I'm curious will his supporters come out for him.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:53 pm**

semi-sentient wrote:On a side note, why did Drexler's PER drop in the playoffs, and why is there such a large gap between he and Jordan? Does it really weigh scoring that heavily? All of his numbers, except for steals and TS%, improved in the playoffs. Jordan's numbers dropped almost everywhere (except scoring! wooooh) and yet, his PER went down less than Drexler's? That seems... odd.

I thought PER would be useful in telling me how one performed from RS to PS, but now I'm having my doubts. From looking at the numbers I would have expected Drexler's PER to be higher. Oh well.

Only thing I can think of is that the Bulls played in a grind it out series vs the Knicks which of course hurt pretty much everyone's numbers, while Drexler was playing in a high octane western conference during the playoffs.

Here is an example. In this years playoffs the Cavs were eliminated in round 2 and Heat in round 1. During the Suns vs Lakers series, Lebron's and Wade's PER would decrease because everyone was putting up good numbers in the series. While the next night when Boston and Orlando played, Lebron's and Wade's PER would increase because hardly anyone was putting up big numbers.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 8:57 pm**

I like Stockton a great deal.

That doesn't mean I know how to fairly rank him in a system like this.

Stockton's like a piece of Romanticism under heavy-handed and strict Classicism. Just not going to be judged very positively by those rubrics.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 9:04 pm**

kaima wrote:I like Stockton a great deal.

That doesn't mean I know how to fairly rank him in a system like this.

Stockton's like a piece of Romanticism under heavy-handed and strict Classicism. Just not going to be judged very positively by those rubrics.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 9:05 pm**

semi-sentient wrote:

[*] Clyde Drexler - Hell of a season for Clyde the Glide. He was pretty kick ass in both the RS and PS. Led his team to the Finals and was the MVP runner-up, as well as getting recognition on the All-NBA 1st Team. The Blazers were certainly stacked, but he was the man on that team so he gets the glory. A bonefide #1 option and IIRC, he was considered one of the leagues best players back then.

[*] Karl Malone - Another impressive year, and he was pretty phenomenal against the Blazers despite that poor game 1 performance, so I can't fault him for not taking his team deeper. Still, as impressive as he was, I think he's slightly below Drexler who didn't have Stockton there to make him look good.

Just as a matter of course, why is it that Stockton is such a boon for Malone, as opposed to Drexler playing on arguably the most talented team in the league? Individually, I think Malone was better throughout the season, but that Drexler was on the better team.

Not averse to being convinced otherwise, but this has been my general feeling and finding when taking a cursory look.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 9:05 pm**

sp6r=underrated wrote:
kaima wrote:I like Stockton a great deal.

That doesn't mean I know how to fairly rank him in a system like this.

Stockton's like a piece of Romanticism under heavy-handed and strict Classicism. Just not going to be judged very positively by those rubrics.

It was my tribute to Wooden.

He loved the short shorts guy, too.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 9:15 pm**

kaima wrote:
semi-sentient wrote:

[*] Clyde Drexler - Hell of a season for Clyde the Glide. He was pretty kick ass in both the RS and PS. Led his team to the Finals and was the MVP runner-up, as well as getting recognition on the All-NBA 1st Team. The Blazers were certainly stacked, but he was the man on that team so he gets the glory. A bonefide #1 option and IIRC, he was considered one of the leagues best players back then.

[*] Karl Malone - Another impressive year, and he was pretty phenomenal against the Blazers despite that poor game 1 performance, so I can't fault him for not taking his team deeper. Still, as impressive as he was, I think he's slightly below Drexler who didn't have Stockton there to make him look good.

Just as a matter of course, why is it that Stockton is such a boon for Malone, as opposed to Drexler playing on arguably the most talented team in the league? Individually, I think Malone was better throughout the season, but that Drexler was on the better team.

Not averse to being convinced otherwise, but this has been my general feeling and finding when taking a cursory look.

I'm going to review the Por-Utah series. I've not watched them yet but I've located some of the games online

Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMEa5g9P ... re=related
Game 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQv6Jr1P ... re=related
Game 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvY53x-- ... re=related

Only, been able to find Portland wins. It always somewhat annoys me when people who have the entire series on tape only upload the games won by the ultimately victorious team.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 9:21 pm**

Why is Barkley being so ignored?

How much is team play standardizing individual greatness in these polls?

I'd agree that his year was not as great, on any level, as 93. But he still put up elite, arguably top 5, numbers.

Posted: **Mon Jun 7, 2010 9:25 pm**

Early Rankings

1. Jordan
2. Drexler
3. Malone
4. Pippen (21, 7, and 7 with elite perimeter D on a championship team 0_0)
5. Ewing

HM: Mullin, Robinson, Barkely

RealGM

Retro POY '91-92 (Voting Complete)

Retro POY '91-92 (Voting Complete)

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