Retro POY '70-71 (Voting Complete)

[Doctor MJ]

In this thread we'll discuss and vote on the top 5 best player seasons of '70-71.

Trying something new now. Schedule will be Mon-Fri, and Thu-Mon. Typically this will be morning to morning.

Some things to start us off:

NBA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1971.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1971.html
Award Voting http://www.basketball-reference.com/awa ... _1971.html
Final Box Score http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1971.htm

ABA
Season Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/lea ... _1971.html
Playoff Summary http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... _1971.html

Topics
Kareem takes over
Bullets make 1st of 4 finals
Celtics start climbing again

[Mean_Streets]

Pretty much the same players from '72, but in a little different order.

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar - No doubt my #1 player this year. League MVP & Finals MVP. Easy choice.

2. Jerry West - He didn't play in the postseason, but his amazing RS puts him at #2 on my list. was 2nd in MVP voting. All-NBA First Team. 27/5/10 player.

3. Wilt Chamberlain - Averages 21/18/4. I think he actually performed better against Kareem in the postseason this year than he did in '72.

4. Walt Frazier - All-NBA 2nd Team. All-Defensive First Team. Led team to ECF.

5. John Havlicek - Again, Havlicek at his absolute peak. All-NBA First Team. All-NBA Defensive Team. Averages of 29/9/8.

[Dr Positivity]

Kareem deserves like a 1.3 share for this year

Will be interested in how Oscar does this year. 19/8/6 as 2nd banana on one of the greatest teams ever, and considering he put up 25ppg the year before this I think it's fair to say his scoring stats don't represent what they would be if he was still the man, mind you he was getting older and gradually declining

Also looks like another tricky "playoff injury" year with West's absence, per usual I'm leaving guys who miss the PS off my ballot, despite West being IMO the 2nd best player in the league this year pretty easily. West will be a bit unlucky in this project, his best years he'll likely be left with 3rd place votes behind Russell/Wilt, then in 68-73 when it looks like he could finally rack up some top 2 points, he gets a rash of injuries

[Dr Positivity]

Can someone tell me about Dave Bing's d? Bit conflicted on what to do with him. His resume looks pretty good - 27/5/5 as the leader of a 45 win team (which is pretty solid in a league where the 2nd best record was 51), 3rd in PER, 3rd in MVP voting, made 1st team All-NBA over Frazier and Oscar. He looks like the 3rd best offensive player this year, but if he's just a one dimesional scorer, it'd be hard to put him on this list against guys who contribute across the board

[JordansBulls]

1970-1971

1. Kareem - MVP and Finals MVP, Led in Win Shares, PER, WS PER 48 Minutes, and did the same in the playoffs. 1st Team All NBA and 2nd Team Defense


2. Jerry West - 3rd in WS on the season and 2nd in PER, 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team Defense

3. Walt Frazier - 2nd in WS on the season and 2nd in WS Per 48 Minutes, 2nd in playoff Win Shares and 2nd in Playoff Win Shares PER 48 Minutes and 5th in Playoff PER. 2nd Team All NBA and 1st Team Defense

4. Oscar Robertson - 5th in Win Shares in the playoffs, 3rd in Playoff PER, 2nd Team All NBA, stepped it up in the Finals.

5. Zelmo Beaty - Led in Win Shares, WS Per 48 Minutes and 2nd in PER in the season, 1st in Playoff PER, 1st in Win Shares PER 48 Minutes and Win Shares. Won Title

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1971.htm#


HM: Wes Unseld, Dan Issel

[ThaRegul8r]

NEW YORK (NEA) — Vincent van Gogh died a pauper, his genius unrecognized. William Shakespeare made a comfortable living but never considered himself the best writer in England in 1610—let alone the best in the world. Richard M. Nixon, as we all know was a long time blooming.

Things are different for Lew Alcindor, the Milwaukee Bucks’ 7-feet-2, 232-pound center.

At 23, he has been chosen Most Valuable Player in the National Basketball Association by an overwhelming vote of his peers.

Barring the possible existence of an unscouted Amazon basin Indian who is 7-feet-4 and can jump shoot from 30 feet with either hand, Alcindor is the best basketball player in the world.

And even those New York Knick fans who cheer when Alcindor slips and falls on the Madison Square Garden court will admit there is a good chance he is the best basketball player who ever lived.

Where, other than a very high tax bracket, does all this leave Lew Alcindor?

“I’m very proud and happy to be getting the MVP award, because I feel I’ve worked hard for it,” Alcindor says, smiling.

(Arranging an interview with Lew Alcindor is only slightly more difficult than arranging one with Mao Tse-tung but this is understandable for a man who has been standing out in crowds since his early teens. When reached, Alcindor is—or at least he can be—pleasant, articulate and unassuming.)

There is considerably more to Lew Alcindor than the considerable quantity of him that meets the eye, according to people who know him. They say he is wellread, intellectually deep. He is also a frank man who told a Milwaukee reporter he thought Milwaukee was a town for factory workers and got away without being boiled in beer despite the tender sensitivities of Milwaukeeans to slights from Easterners (Alcindor is from New York).

He describes himself as an athlete this way:

“Although there are still a lot of little things I do wrong, I think I am a player without any really big weakness. But I don’t think of myself as the best player there is. That would be too much of an ego trip. . . . I just like to think of myself as one of the players you debate about when you try to decide who’s the best.”

People in the Bucks organization talk of their pride, joy and meal ticket in glowing terms. Team trainer, Arnie Garber, for instance, says Alcindor “is always willing to take advice and accept help, and he never expects any kind of special treatment.”

Alcindor himself is not unwilling to acknowledge that he received help in winning the MVP award. He talks about the acquisition of Oscar Robertson:

“Having Oscar with us this year has helped me a lot. I don’t have to worry about our getting the ball downcourt any more, I don’t have to worry about the ball not being there when I get open and people don’t expect me to do everything for the team. I just have the utmost confidence in his ability.”

With the Milwaukee Bucks as phenomenally successful during the regular season as any pro basketball team has ever been, Alcindor’s immediate ambition is inevitable:

“I want for us to win the championship, of course. That’s the top and everybody wants to be on top.”

An NBA championship for the Bucks would embellish Alcindor’s achievement and might prevent him from suffering the fate of Wilt Chamberlain, who won the MVP award as a rookie but has been able to lead a team to only one tainted league championship and never was able to lead a team past Boston when his arch-opponent, Bill Russell, was healthy.

Apparently doomed to futility in reaching what Alcindor calls “the top,” Chamberlain, after reaching a personal peak of 50.4 points per game during this third year, lapsed into a career of uninspired toll that often has made him look like a bored wretch who made a flawed pact with the devil.

There is no Russell to plague Alcindor. The Knicks’ Willis Reed and the aging Chamberlain himself are his only near rivals, and barring injury he should soon be far past even them—if he isn’t already.

So the NBA title itself is the tangible height left to scale.

But if the Bucks win this year, what is left for Alcindor to do?

He says he feels he has improved this year on his biggest weakness during his rookie season — rebounding — without harming the rest of his game by relating what he did to his experience as a rookie.

Next season he will be more than ever a marked man; at the point where improvement yields diminishing returns; laboring at the peaks where the progress is painful and barely perceptible.”

Lew Alcindor laughs broadly and you believe him when he says that, yes, he is happy doing what he’s doing.

Next year he will have a new problem: relating to the experience of being the best there is.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=cZ ... 19,4176018

[ThaRegul8r]

Oscar May Be Key to Unlock Title Door for Young Bucks

If one super-star can lift the Milwaukee Bucks from last place to second, think of what two such stars can do. It’s certain the Bucks are thinking.

With Lew Alcindor and only a so-so supporting cast, the Bucks still managed to finish within only four games of the world champion New York Knicks in the Eastern Division last season.

Under the new National Basketball Association realignment of four divisions, the Bucks now reside in the Midwest Division, the Knicks in the Atlantic. And now the Bucks have Oscar Robertson.

If there was one thing the Bucks sorely needed last year, it was a ball handler and leader in the backcourt to take charge of a young team. Robertson more than fits the bill.

As an added strengthener, the Bucks also picked up Bob Boozer and Lucius Allen to fill out their bench.

Young starters Bob Dandridge, Greg Smith and Jon McGlocklin also should improve under Robertson’s guidance.

With Detroit, Chicago and Phoenix the other teams in the Division, Milwaukee’s biggest obstacles toward a spot in the NBA championship series should come from the Pacific Division with Los Angeles and San Francisco.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rh ... 06,4317255

Superstars Lew and Oscar Turn Bucks Into Super Club

MILWAUKEE (AP) – The Big O and Big A are paid-up members of the Mutual Admiration Society.

“You know Oscar’s going to do the right thing all of the time,” said 7-foot-2 Lew Alcindor of his Milwaukee Bucks’ teammate, Oscar Robertson.

“Lew’s very agile and quick,” Robertson said. “He’s got a better shot. He’s very tough to guard.”

The two superstars are blending their talents together for the first time this season after Milwaukee obtained Robertson from the Cincinnati Royals in an off-season trade.

The mixture has been highly successful thus far. The Bucks have a healthy lead in the National Basketball Association’s Midwest Division.

Two of the most widely-heralded collegiate stars to enter the pro ranks, Alcindor and Robertson have one thing in common. Both are team players.

“Oscar’s a leader,” Milwaukee Coach Larry Costello said. “He comes to play. He creates situations and drives to the basket. The other teams can’t afford to sag on Lew and forget everybody else.”

The Royals’ top draft choice in 1960 following an outstanding career at the University of Cincinnati, Robertson has played in 10 straight NBA All-Star contest, all as a starter, and has won the game’s Most Valuable Player award three times and was runnerup for the award twice.

Oscar is the leading playmaker in the NBA and is third behind only Wilt Chamberlain and Elgin Baylor on the all-time scoring list.

Yet, at Cincinnati, he was called a “selfish player, one who was more interested in his own points rather than if his team was losing or winning.”

“They had to say something bad about me,” Oscar said. “They also said I didn’t like to run. But I’m the all-time leader in assists. I have to be doing something to get down there.”

The addition of Alcindor, a three-time All-American while at UCLA, lifted the Bucks last year from a last-place team to a contender.

Against the New York Knicks in the playoffs, however, the inability of Milwaukee’s guards to score was decisive in the Bucks’ defeat.

This season, Alcindor is scoring at a league-leading 32 points per game pace, four points a game over last year.

“He’s much quicker than other people think he is,” Robertson said of the Big A.

Oscar, on the other hand, has preferred to pass more and shoot less. His scoring average, consequently, has come down considerably from his lifetime mark of 29.3. Through November’s games, Oscar averaged 18 points per outing.

The difference in the team too, is up front where two of the smallest forwards in the NBA 6-6 Bob Dandridge and 6-5 Greg Smith, operate.

Dandridge’s point production has ballooned from 13.5 points a game last year to 19.9, including a high of 39. Smith has increased his averaged from 9.7 to 12.4.

“I’m getting better shots simply because Oscar is such a great passer,” Dandridge said.

“He knows when to give the ball to you and when not to.”

Smith admitted that he’s a harder worker without the ball now that Robertson is on the same team.

“You know if you get open Oscar will get the ball to you,” Smith said.

Both Robertson and Alcindor have helped the Bucks’ defense, also.

“He’s constantly getting on you to keep moving and to play defense,” Dandridge said of Oscar.

“He makes us talk defense,” Smith said of the Big O. “You’ve got to talk, You don’t have eyes in the back of your head. So somebody else has got to tell you what’s going on behind you.”

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ij ... 71,1582589

[TrueLAfan]

1. Kareem. A huge gap between #1 and #2. Dominated the regular season and postseason, won title and finals MVP, etc.

2. Frazier. I think West was better on the court. I think Clyde moves slightly ahead because the logo missed the PS and Frazier was really good in the playoffs. Close; still debating #2 and #3

3. West. The end of his peak period; the best perimeter defender in the league (sorry Hondo) and a 27-4.5-10 player. If he'd had his usual postseason, would be an easy #2. Still in the running as is.

4. Havlicek. Super huge numbers...but in 45 mpg. The Celtics had no bench at all, but they did have Hondo, Cowens, White, Chaney, and Nelson as starters—feels odd they didn't get more than 44 wins.

5. Oscar. Intangibles. I think Oscar defensive rep is overrated; he was a little above average this year—maybe--but (unlike West and Frazier) he lacked the lateral quicks to stay with smaller guards by this point in his career. Tough call over Bing and Wilt and Zelmo Beaty here. May change this.

Dave Bing? Not a good defender; a fairly close comparison in terms of on-court play would be Monta Ellis. Bing wasn't as much of a rebounder (which isn't as important for a guard) but is a (much) better playmaker (which is important) and better scorer becaus ehe went to the line a lot more. And Bing was a really good teammate and good guy.

[ThaRegul8r]

Putting this here now, and I'll edit in the rest later:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. 31.7 points (1st in the league) on 57.7 percent shooting (2nd)—highest in NBA history for a 30-ppg season—and 60.6 percent true shooting (2nd)—highest in NBA history for a 30 ppg season at the time (currently 8th), 16.0 rebounds (4th), 3.3 assists in 40.1 minutes per game (10th). First player in NBA history to average 30 ppg on 60% TS—previous high was Oscar Robertson's 30.5 ppg on 58.3% TS in 1966-67. NBA Most Valuable Player. Led league in PER (29.0), offensive win shares (17.0—3rd highest in NBA history), win shares (22.3—4th highest in NBA history), and wins shares per 48 minutes (.326—2nd highest in NBA history); finished ninth in defensive win shares (5.3).

In the postseason averaged 26.6 points on 51.5 percent shooting and 54.8 percent true shooting, 17.0 rebounds and 2.5 assists in 41.2 minutes per game. Led the playoffs in PER (25.3), win shares (3.3), offensive win shares (1.9) and win shares per 48 minutes (.271). NBA Finals Most Valuable Player, averaging 27 points on 60.5 percent shooting and 64.4 percent true shooting, 18.5 rebounds and 2.8 assists in 42 minutes per game.

HIGHEST FIELD GOAL PERCENTAGE, SEASON, 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FGM FG%
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 1063 .577
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 1159 .574
3. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 904 .570
4. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 914 .562
5. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 909 .559
6. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 802 .558
7. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1972-73 30.2 1772 982 .554
8. Bob McAdoo Buffalo 1973-74 30.6 1647 901 .547
9. Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia 1965-66 33.5 1990 1074 .540
10. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 990 .539

HIGHEST TRUE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE, SEASON, 30+ POINTS PER GAME
Player Team Year PPG FGA FTA Pts TS%
1. Adrian Dantley Utah 1983-84 30.6 1438 946 2418 .652
2. Adrian Dantley Utah 1981-82 30.3 1586 818 2457 .631
3. Karl Malone Utah 1989-90 31.0 1627 913 2540 .626
4. Adrian Dantley Utah 1980-81 30.7 1627 784 2452 .622
5. Michael Jordan Chicago 1988-89 32.5 1795 793 2633 .614
6. Kevin Durant Oklahoma 2009-10 30.1 1668 840 2472 .607
7. Michael Jordan Chicago 1989-90 33.6 1964 699 2753 .60597
8. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1970-71 31.7 1843 681 2596 .60579
9. Michael Jordan Chicago 1990-91 31.5 1837 671 2580 .605
10. Michael Jordan Chicago 1987-88 35.0 1998 860 2868 .6034
11. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar Milwaukee 1971-72 34.8 2019 732 2822 .6027

Easy decision.

[semi-sentient]

Great reads.

So wow, they were already talking about Kareem (or Lew, whatever) being the GOAT before his 2nd season was even over. Also surprised to hear that Oscar was considered a selfish, me-first player before coming to the Bucks. His Milwaukee teammates certainly didn't seem to think so.

[penbeast0]

They were talking about him being GOAT at Power Memorial before he went to college

And Oscar was a bit of a grouch in Cinncinnati. Great PGs get the ball to teammates in their sweetsports and Oscar did, but he threw very quick, hard passes and if a teammate lost focus, Oscar wasn't shy about bouncing the ball off the back of his head and calling him out in front of everyone. He also might have had some issues with racism and with Jerry Lucas being the "great white hope" of the team.

10 years later, he had presumably matured, he wanted a title badly, and Kareem had great hands and focus so it wasn't the same kind of problem.

[semi-sentient]

Hmmm, West and Havlicek missing the playoffs kind of opens things up a little for the 4/5 spots. Kareem is a lock for 1st this year (better be unanimous) with Wilt/Walt fighting for the 2 spot. I'll wait to hear more about some of these other guys before putting out any early rankings. I'm leaning heavily towards Robertson at 4 at the moment.

Regular Season

Code: Select all

Player          GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   PER   WS
============================================================
Kareem          82  40.1  31.7  .606  16.0  3.3   29.0  22.3
Wilt            82  44.3  20.7  .545  18.2  4.3   20.3  12.6
Frazier         80  43.2  21.7  .556   6.8  6.7   19.5  15.6
Havlicek        81  45.4  28.9  .513   9.0  7.5   20.8  12.5
West            69  41.2  26.9  .571   4.6  9.5   23.5  12.8
Robertson       81  39.4  19.4  .563   5.7  8.2   19.6  12.4
Cunningham      81  38.1  23.0  .519  11.7  4.9   20.5  10.0

Post Season

Code: Select all

Player          GP  MIN   PTS   TS%   REB   AST   PER   WS
============================================================
Kareem          14  41.2  26.6  .548  17.0  2.5   25.3  3.3
Wilt            12  46.2  18.3  .479  20.2  4.4   19.1  0.8
Frazier         12  41.8  22.6  .572   5.8  4.5   20.2  2.5
Havlicek        -------------------------------------------
West            -------------------------------------------
Robertson       14  37.1  18.3  .533   5.0  8.9   21.1  2.3
Cunningham       7  43.0  25.9  .528  15.4  5.7   22.8  0.9

Awards Recognition / Misc

Code: Select all

Player          MVP     All-NBA   All-Defense    Team Record
============================================================
Kareem          1st     1st       2nd            66-16
Wilt            ---     ---       ---            48-34
Havlicek        ---     1st       2nd            44-38
West            2nd     1st       1st            48-34
Frazier         ---     2nd       1st            52-30
Robertson       5th     2nd       ---            66-16
Cunningham      ---     1st       ---            47-35

[fatal9]

Bullets vs. Knicks recap:

- Reed had an injured right shoulder throughout the series which he called "more frustrating than the knee"
- Bullets were dealing with even more injuries with Gus Johnson's knees (didn't play first five games), Loughery (heel injury, sat out a game).

Since there are some notable players who will probably crack some lists (Reed, Frazier, Unseld, Monroe etc), here are the boxscores for each games:

G1: Reed hit game clinching shot off an assist by Frazier.


G2:

G3:


G4:

G5:

G6:


G7: Bradley missed last second shot at the buzzer.

[Mean_Streets]

Fatal I hope you have a recap of the Knicks vs Bucks series in '70 (Reed vs Kareem) ready for the next thread because I honestly have no idea who I'm going to put at #1 for 1970.

[JordansBulls]

Fatal I hope you have a recap of the Knicks vs Bucks series in '70 (Reed vs Kareem) ready for the next thread because I honestly have no idea who I'm going to put at #1 for 1970.

Reed... The man won league and finals mvp's.

[Sedale Threatt]

He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

[ElGee]

Estimated Pace-Adjusted Statistics

Code: Select all

           Pts 75  Reb/75  Ast/75  Rel TS%
Kareem     25.0    12.6    2.6     10.6%
Bing       23.1    3.8     4.3     4.0%
West       20.6    3.3     7.3     7.1%
Havlicek   18.9    5.9     4.9     1.3%
Billy C    18.7    9.5     4.0     1.9%
Reed       17.0    11.2    1.6     1.0%
Frazier    16.0    5.0     4.9     5.6%
Oscar      15.6    4.6     6.6     6.3%
Thurmond   15.4    10.6    2.2     0.1%
Wilt       14.8    13.0    3.0     5.8%


*Reflection of TS% for and against

Team ORtg

Code: Select all

Milwaukee     104.1
Los Angeles   100.6
Detroit       98.0
Philadelphia  97.5
New York      97.3
Boston        94.9
San Francisco 93.7


Team DRtg

Code: Select all

New York      92.8
Milwaukee     93.4
San Francisco 94.9
Boston        96.6
Los Angeles  97.9
Detroit       98.7
Philadelphia  98.8

PS: Follow-up note about pace estimation. Realized Neil at B-R has a regression that estimates pace well. The problem (IMO) is that turnovers pretty much stabilized in the last 25 years, so his method wouldn't be as accurate for the 60s and 70s. The simple formula for shots+a TO constant (which is what I'm using) was significantly more accurate in 1974 (last year we have actual pace).

PS: Keep the box scores coming!

[Mean_Streets]

Fatal I hope you have a recap of the Knicks vs Bucks series in '70 (Reed vs Kareem) ready for the next thread because I honestly have no idea who I'm going to put at #1 for 1970.

Reed... The man won league and finals mvp's.

Reed was my first reaction too, but once I looked deeper into that year I started the have second thoughts.

[JordansBulls]

He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

Irrelevant. Magic didn't in 1980 but still got it.

Anyway, how can you argue against a guy who won league mvp and the title the same year?

To me those are the easy years to determine the #1 guy. League MVP and the Title.

[Optimism Prime]

He didn't deserve Finals MVP.

Irrelevant. Magic didn't in 1980 but still got it.

Anyway, how can you argue against a guy who won league mvp and the title the same year?

To me those are the easy years to determine the #1 guy. League MVP and the Title.

Operative word in the first sentence: "You"
Operative word in the second sentence: "Me"

JB, not everyone has your rubric for voting, just like you don't have everyone else's. An easy decision in your mind does not necessarily equate to an easy decision for Sedale, or myself, or anyone else in the project.