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Payton offenses:

1990: 110.9 (2.8) *pre Payton
1991: 109.7 (1.8) *27 mpg
1992: 110.7 (2.5)
1993: 112.3 (4.3)
1994: 111.1 (4.8)
1995: 114.8 (6.5)
1996: 110.3 (2.7)
1997: 111.2 (4.5)
1998: 111.6 (6.6)
1999: 105 (2.8)
2000: 105.6 (1.5)
2001: 105.6 (2.6)
2002: 108.9 (4.5)
2003: 103.7 (0.1) *post Payton

Gary Payton Peak Play

Payton in 1998 played in a totally balanced multipolar offense (6.3 SRS team). Incidentally, it was one of the best offenses of all-time. I don't want my PG's scoring quite as much as Payton, but it should be noted that his style -- again, more combo-guard to me -- didn't exactly prevent him from ostensibly being the point of a great offense. (The 98 team was the 13th best offense relative to league, the 95 team 18th). And for those who have forgotten, that was the VIN BAKER Sonics team, with Schrempf starting and playing 35 mpg and the usual cast of old men. (As an aside, anyone notice how good these old, veteran TEAMS are at basketball? Only reinforces my love of late peaks, as playing well in a team system like this year's Mavs is so valuable.)

Anyway, Payton took 15.6 FGA per game that year, then 18.3 in the PS. Seattle was upset in G2 v Minnesota, despite a big game from Payton scoring-wise. The issue in that game was the defense, and from, IIR, an inability to control the Wolves guards. In G3 Minny held serve, again scoring about 1.2 pts/pos (!), with Payton having a typically strong 26-6-5 50% line. I remember him having what I would call a commanding G4 against elimination, holding on for 92-88 win with 24-8-6 (58% TS) and Marbury going 4-16. (They also went on a big run with KG out of the game to blow it open.) In G5, Marbury again was 2-10, Garnett put out an epic fail (3-11, 10 TOV) and Payton captained the ship with 29 pts (71% TS).

In the next round, Sea was "upset" by the 4 AS Laker squad (6.9 SRS with Shaq missing 28g - +8.9 MOV with Shaq). G2 was a meltdown, with Sea being outrebounded by 22 and scoring 0.83/pos. Yikes. As we often see, those numbers correlate with the star's play, as Payton had 12 points (6-17) and 2 rebounds, and Schrempf went 0-6 (!). The G3 loss was totally on the defense however, giving up 1.35 pts/pos (57.1% shooting for LA). Payton finished with 22 points and 13 assists. G4 Seattle's offense was even better (1.23/pos) but they gave up 1.38 pts/pos! Payton with a monster all-around game in defeat: 31-13-8 (80% TS). In the final game of the series, GP flamed out a bit: 5-16, 5 ast. They still failed on defense, surrending 1.29/pos. They just couldn't handle Shaq with Jim Mac and Baker; O'Neal averaged 30.6 pts 9.6 reb 4 ast 4 blcks 64.1% TS 2.6 TOV. Btw, that Laker team was BBQed by Karl Malone and the old men Jazz in the next round (late peaks!).

In 2000, Payton had a different, alcoholic Vin Baker, no Hersey Hawkins and most importantly no Detlef Shchrempf (to quote Bill Walton, THAT GUY was good). They finished +1.5 in ORtg (9th) and scratched to a 1.2 SRS team with Brent Barry, Ruben Patterson and a 34-yr old Horace Grant. That teams bench reads like a failed experiment, save for 2nd year 6th-man Rashard Lewis, explaining why Payton played 42 mpg (!). In that system, he took 20.3 FGA per night and 22.6 in the PS. They lost in 5 to a 4.5 SRS Jazz team...

In G1, Shammond Williams (some PG play?) and Lazaro Borrell started. That's not a typo. I believe Vin Baker was falling apart at that point. He was dropped from the starting lineup and struggled mightily at the end of the year. Lewis also started and played 16 minutes. It was a unipolar approach for Payton basically -- Iverson's Law time -- and he went 11-29, 11 rebounds, 6 assists. Of course, Karl Malone had 50 and 12. (And people were looking at 2000 like Malone was a scrub?) In G2, for the second straight contest, Seattle's offense faultered. Payton with a totally different approach that game and it didn't work (8-12, 1 ast) with Shammond Williams sort of playing more of a PG role. Stockton had 21 and 11 on 11 FGAs...in other words, he hit a few more of his typical open shots.

So in G3 Payton went back to his unipolar scoring attack. 8-24, 10 ast, 7 reb. 1.02 pts/pos, but while Malone went for 30 on 12-19, Stockton MISSED his typical open shots (in theory) and went 1-8. Seattle was +8 on the glass and held on. In G4, behind Payton and the Shammond Williams rotation shelved, Seattle averaged 1.15 pts/pos with GP dropping a signature 35-11-10 triple double (63% TS), 6 steals and a psychological ownage of John Stockton drilling a key dagger 3 in his face. (Stock made 4 of his standard 9 shots). In G5, another solid offensive showing but Sea fell short at the buzzer (Person missed 3). Payton sparked a furious rally down the stretch down 7, finishing with 27-9-6 54% TS. Malone had 27-8 (13-24) and give Stock credit, he played 41 min and made 6 of his typical 9 shots with 15 dimes and 7 boards.

So, just want to reiterate how the Nash Suns performed on offense:

Using efficiency relative to league average (http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6205), the top offenses in RS history:

1. Suns 2007 (3.25 z-score)
2. Suns 2005 (2.92)
3. Bucks 1971 (2.72)
4. Suns 2010 (2.59)
5. Nuggets 1982 (2.56)
6. Mavericks 2004 (2.49)
7. Rockets 1975 (2.40)
8. Lakers 1987 (2.34)
9. Kings 2004 (2.33)
10. Suns 2006 (2.31)
11. Suns 2009 (2.13)
12. Celtics 1988 (2.12)
13. Sonics 1998 (2.07)
14. Bulls 1996 (2.02)
15. Lakers 1985 (2.00)
16. Spurs 1978 (2.00)
17. Sonics 1995 (2.00)
18. Sonics 2004 (1.99)
19. Mavericks 2002 (1.98)
20. Sonics 1997 (1.94)

Nash has been 7 of the top-20 offenses of all-time. He's been on 3 of the top 4 in Phoenix.

Here's what's so interesting...in 2008 the team was totally shaken up with the Shaquille O'Neal trade. So you're looking at 05-07, and 2010 as good situations for the team. 4 years. One of those years, in 2006, they were playing with scraps and went into the playoffs, basically, without any big people. And yet...

I'd like to add in that I've now calculated almost all of the 110+ offenses in the PS since 1980, and relative to their opp RS DRtg avg., these are the unofficial top PS offenses:

1. Suns 2005 16.2
2. Suns 2010 12.6
3. Lakers 2001 12.2
4. Suns 1992 11.8
5. Suns 1995 11.5
6. Bulls 1991 10.9
7. Lakers 1987 10.5
8. Nuggets 2009 10.2
9. Mavericks 2003 10.0
10. Lakers 1985 9.8
11. Lakers 1998 9.5
12. Kings 2003 9.5
13. Magic 1996 9.3
14. Rockets 1997 9.3
15. Lakers 1989 9.1
16. Mavericks 2002 9.0
17. Spurs 2006 9.0
18. Suns 2006 9.0
19. Bulls 1993 8.9
20. Mavericks 2005 8.7

Somehow the 2006 Suns still managed one of the 20-best PS offenses relative to their defensive environment. The ONLY Suns team not on that list is the greatest RS offense of all-time in 2007. Why? What happened to them if they were so great in the RS?

Well, in G3, the entire Suns team was dubiously in foul trouble. This was considered at the time one of the weirdest/worst officiated games in recent times, and has since been discussed in the Donaughy scandal, which is saying something since the teams involved were so small market and it was the conference semis. (I watched with a bunch of “neutral” fans at the gym and they were saying stuff like “I'm not rooting for Phoenix, but they just got screwed.” Make of that what you will, but the team was in heavy foul trouble that game.)

In G5 they played without suspended players Stoudemire and Diaw and ran 6 guys basically. SAS had a 99.9. If we remove G5, Phoenix's Ortg for the series becomes 109.2 (+9.3), which would be 13th on the above list. Without G3, they had a 110.2 Ortg (+10.3), which would be 8th on the above list.

Basically, saying in any form that Steve Nash, or the Suns offense, didn't bring it at historically good levels during these key years is just categorically false.

Fencer reregistered wrote:Nominate: Paul Pierce

Fencer reregistered wrote:He was one of the top iso scorers in league history

lukekarts wrote:.... Guys like Bradley, DeBusschere; Lucas etc were great, and Willis Reed was undoubtedly the man in 1970 when they overcame the Lakers; before injury sadly derailed his career.

ElGee wrote:Quick thought: Why Frazier ahead of Nash?

Would you take Frazier to start/build a team around over Nash?
Do you think Frazier's peak was as good as Nash's?
Do you think Frazier has more longevity/career value than Nash?

I have Nash, pretty clearly, in all 3 of these areas.

penbeast0 wrote:

ElGee wrote:Quick thought: Why Frazier ahead of Nash?

Would you take Frazier to start/build a team around over Nash?
Do you think Frazier's peak was as good as Nash's?
Do you think Frazier has more longevity/career value than Nash?

I have Nash, pretty clearly, in all 3 of these areas.

1. Yes, absolutely. Frazier gives you great offense AND great defense and having stars buy in to the team defensive team is a big part of creating great defensive teams which win titles.

2. Better. Again, the extra bonus Frazier gives you on the defensive side of the ball is more valuable to me than the extra assists that Nash provides. The 3 point shot has given Nash an efficiency advantage but not as great a one as the raw numbers suggest just as Frazier doesn't have the scoring advantage the raw numbers suggest.

3. Clearly. Career value includes playoffs and Frazier taking NY on those two great title runs as the 1A/1B then again as a clear #1 trumps Nash's two MVP seasons in Phoenix for me.

PS. Oh and Granger. Reed has gotten a couple of nominations from Lukekarts and will be starting to get some play soon most likely but he is behind Frazier because (a) statistically he is more impressive particularly his efficiency, (b) Reed's career was shorter due to his injury issues, and (c) the Knicks before Frazier were not particularly impressive (DeBusschere was also a very key addition however and also deserves a top 100 spot); with Reed injured and playing only part time and with very limited effectiveness, Frazier still carried the Knicks to a title.