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Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days at 10PM EST (note the new time as school is restarting)

Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Paul Pierce

NBA Champion 2008
2008 NBA Finals MVP
1x All-NBA2ndt Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
9x All-STar



Dwight Howard

4x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 3rd Team
3x NBA DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE YEAR
3x NBA All-Defensive 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defensive 2nd Team
5x All-STar



Jason Kidd

NBA Champion 2011
5x All-NBA 1st Team
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
4x All-Defense 1st Team
5x All-Defense 2nd Team
10x All-Star
Rookie of the Year 1995


George Gervin

5x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
2x All-ABA 2nd Team
12x All-Star (3 ABA, 9 NBA)
All-Star MVP (1980)
Hall of Fame (1996)


Clyde Drexler

* NBA Champion 1994
* 1x 1st All-NBA
* 2x 2nd All-NBA
* 2x 3rd All-NBA
* 10x All-Star


Gary Payton

NBA Champion (2006)
2× All-NBA First Team Selection
5× All-NBA Second Team Selection
2x All-NBA Third Team Selections
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1996)
9x 1st Team All-Defense
9× All-Star


Artis Gilmore

ABA MVP 1972
ABA Champion 1975
ABA Playoff MVP 1975
5x All-ABA 1st Team
4x ABA All-Defense 1st Team
1x NBA All-Defense 2nd Team
ABA All-Star Game MVP 1974
5xABA All-Star
6xNBA All-Star
ABA Rookie of the Year 1972
Hall of Fame 2011



John Stockton

2x All-NBA 1st Team
6x All-NBA 2nd Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Defense 2nd Team
10x All-Star
All-Star MVP (1993)
NBA’s All-Time leader in Assists
NBA’s All-Time leader in Steals
Hall of Fame 2009


Isiah Thomas

2x NBA Champion (1989, 1990)
NBA Finals MVP (1990)
3× All-NBA 1st Team
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
12× All-Star
2x All-Star MVP (1984, 1986)
Hall of Fame (2000)



Rick Barry

* NBA Champion (1975)
* NBA Finals MVP (1975)
* 5× All-NBA First Team Selection
* 1× All-NBA Second Team Selection
* 4× All-ABA 1st Team Selection
* Rookie of the Year (1966)
* NBA All-Star Game MVP (1967)
* 12× All-Star (8 NBA, 4 ABA)
* Voted to the HOF in 1987

From a list, mysticbb says

VOTE -- John Stockton

Nominate -- Reggie Miller

Voting Candidates
The PGs are here. John Stockton is as efficient as just chosen Steve Nash and better assists and defense though less scoring. Isiah Thomas and Gary Payton are very similar statistically with Isiah having more team success and Payton having much greater defensive strength. I lean to Stockton and Payton over Thomas -- have traditionally favored Payton but the efficiency both in shooting and in A/TO is tough to argue with and some of the strong pro-Stockton posts have me leaning a little to Stockton at the moment.

Among the wings, there are no top defenders although Gervin and Barry were unusually offense oriented. Gervin didn't pass the way all the others did but is the best scorer of the bunch and that's the main attribute for each of them. Advanced numbers support Gervin or Pierce who is surprisingly strong. Accolades indicate that contemporary observers were less impressed with Pierce and support Gervin or Barry as the most dominant. I'm not a huge fan of Gervin as a piece of a championship team (although I never thought Kobe could win twice with that Laker team either) but the RPOY project has him surprisingly strong whereas Barry outside that one great run disappoints especially if you think Nate Thurmond is a top 50 caliber player (Barry did win an ABA title but that was despite him, not because of him, since he went down halfway into the year and the team didn't skip a beat._

REGULAR SEASON – Gervin is the best scorer but doesn’t have the playmaking
Barry 6.6 reb 4.6ast 24.2pts .525ts%
Drexler 6.5reb 5.9ast 21.7pts .548ts%
Gervin 5.8reb 2.8ast 27.1pts .566ts%
Pierce 5.9reb 3.7ast 21.6pts .569ts%


PLAYOFFS – All perform at a similar or even better rate in their playoffs (in 38-41 mpg)
Barry 6.8 reb 4.5ast 28.7pts .518ts%
Drexler 7.1reb 6.4ast 21.0pts .534ts%
Gervin 7.0reb 2.9ast 27.1pts .560ts%
Pierce 6.5reb 4.0ast 21.4pts .559ts%

ADJUSTED (pace adjusted points and efg adjusted ts%) -- Pierce really is helped by the pace adjustment
Barry (league average 110.2) = 21.9adj ppg (.455 league efg) ..575 adj ts%
Drexler (league average 106.5) = 20.2adj ppg (.491 league efg) .556adj ts%
Gervin (league average 109.2) =24.7adj ppg (.482 league efg) .585 adj ts%
Pierce (league average 97.0) = 22.0adj ppg (.485 league efg) .584 adj ts%

ACCOLADES -- Havlicek didn't even have All-Def his whole career
Barry – 5x1st, 1x2nd All-NBA, 4x1st All-ABA, Finals MVP, .592 (4th in 75, 4th in 76)
Drexler – 1x1st, 2x2nd, 2x3rd All-NBA, .778 MVP Shares (2nd in 1992)
Gervin – 5x1st, 2x2nd All-NBA, 2x2nd All-ABA, .991 MVP Shares (2nd in 78 and 79, 3rd in 80)
Pierce – 1980 Finals MVP, 1x2nd, 3x3rd All-NBA, .040 MVP Shares (best is 7th in 09)



I still prefer Artis Gilmore to any of the other big men out there despite the various posts on him (almost all of which ignore his ABA prime to focus on his NBA years). Although his NBA career isn't overwhelming for anything but scoring efficiently, still a 20ppg scorer who it the MOST EFFICIENT PLAYER IN NBA HISTORY is pretty damned intriguing. Dwight Howard is also a damn good candidate here but with peak is about even with Gilmore's ABA (though against somewhat tougher center competition) and Gilmore has a solid, if not equally spectacular, NBA career in addition.

So, it is Stockton's long superconsistent career v. Gervin's one dimensional flash v. Gilmore's ABA peak and later hyperefficient scoring in the NBA. I can see either Gilmore or Stockton here.


Vote: Artis Gilmore

For the nomination:

PG -- It is between the great playmaking but inefficient even for his era (especially in playoffs) Bob Cousy, and the young gun with 2 great years but only 5 1/2 years total, Chris Paul. Other candidates include the injury prone Kevin Johnson, the surprisingly efficient Chauncey Billups, and possibly Hal Greer or Lenny Wilkens from the 60s or the purely offensive Nate Archibald or Pete Maravich from the 70s. Of them, I'd lean to Billups for the efficiency, the defense, and for helping kick the superstar laden Shaq/Kobe/KMalone/Payton Lakers in the ass.

Wings -- On the wings, there are still great scorers left . . . I like Alex English's consistency and all around play over the more spectacular but less consistent Bernard King, Mark Aquirre, or David Thompson, the equally consistent but less efficient and lazier defense of Dominique Wilkins or the statistically best Adrian Dantley. Not sure where to rank Ray Allen or Reggie Miller's 3 point skills. Defensivley, I love Moncrief (and Dumars and Bobby Jones have a shot too but Moncrief was the most dominant at his peak) though the shortness of his peak (5 years then a major falloff) is a big issue. Still, we voted Wade in based on the same, and not even consecutive, peak and if I want to win a title, I want Sid over any of the other wings left . . .

Big Men -- The bigs left all have some issue with their games. Zo had health issues and was always a step behind the best like Shaq/Robinson/Duncan/etc. Willis Reed and Wes Unseld weren't as individually dominant and broke down faster too, while Neil Johnston and Mel Daniels played against inferior competition during their primes and were more limited besides. Dave Cowens was an inefficient scorer and not a great help defender though a super hustle guy. Bob McAdoo while his 5 year peak is spectacular, didn't play big man defense and his teams didn't dominate; Bob Lanier and Walt Bellamy had nice numbers but their teams weren't that much either and Detroit with Lanier sucked defensively for 9 of Lanier's 10 prime years which I consider pretty bad. Finally there is Dikembe Mutombo who was a great shot blocker and consistent player for years. Finally, Bill Walton had one great year (not that much better than Wes Unseld's MVP year) but every other year he broke down and left the Portland and San Diego teams which had built around him destroyed until he made another 1 year comeback as a top reserve. I wouldn't choose a one in eight shot at catching lightning in a bottle at the expense of a virtually guaranteed team crash the other seven over most of the above named players.

At PF, McHale didn't rebound as well but has terrific efficiency and very good defense. Hayes does rebound that well but was inefficient and a jerk, and Bobby Jones and Dennis Rodman may be the greatest pair of defensive forwards but Jones, while extremely efficient, didn't score or rebound that much while Rodman had no offense and for 1/2 his career, left his man at times to pad his rebounding stats at the team's expense. All four should be coming up soon though along with most of the mentioned centers, McHale to me has a slight edge over the others because I am an efficiency and defense freak.

So, Billups v. Moncrief v. English v. McHale v. Unseld or Zo . . . All except Pierce are short peak guys, I think Moncrief peaks the highest over a 5 year stretch . . .

NOMINATE -- Sidney Moncrief

Again, both my vote and nomination are subject to change

My first candidates for nomination are McGrady, McHale, and the 1970s bigs. Clearly, I need to compromise on my usual preferences for longevity and not-bad intangibles, with longevity the more likely to go.

Actually, Billups has an argument soon too. His stats are better than I thought, and his Pistons may be the best team from which we haven't nominated anybody yet. (1970s Bullets may be second-best.)

Pitino was an idiot, so Chauncey's rocky career start is not necessarily to his discredit. (Pitino traded Billups in part on Cousy's advice -- but Cousy is also the guy who traded Oscar Robertson.)

Billups has made only 5 all-star games, but he made all-NBA one of the years he missed, and all-NBA defensive another of them.

His WS look big, especially OWS.

But with the glut of PGs we currently have, I don't think anybody should nominate Chauncey unless they actually would put him on the list over at least one of Isiah, Stockton, Payton, or Kidd.

Vote: Isiah Thomas (Led Pistons to back to back titles a franchise that never won anything prior to him being there.
Nominate: Tracy Mcgrady (one of the greatest primes around for a wing player)

By the way, neither the Kentucky Colonels nor the Utah Jazz ever won anything before Gilmore and Stockton got there either . . . Detroit at least had the Lanier/Bing years (and someone will nominate them both for this list).

At the risk of incurring Laimbeer's ire -- why would one pick Isiah Thomas over Paul Pierce? Thomas certainly has the all-NBA accolades, but otherwise they look pretty similar: A strong individual-producer youth, some championship run on a superb team when older, and annual all-star selections all the way through.

Perhaps it's which stats you value, and how good a defender you think they each were.

Are there any serious bad-intangibles stories about Payton? Shooting his way out of Seattle over contract issues doesn't count; anybody gets to do that at least once so long as they play hard while they're still there (I'm looking at you, Vince Carter).

I have two groups here, I have Rick Barry and then I have Isiah, Stockton, Payton. So before I decide on the PGs before Barry, I'll decide whom I choose between them

Stockton vs Payton - Both are great defenders, Payton is better than him but the fact that Stockton is great on that end combined with the overall lesser value of PG defense means I don't put a ton into Payton's advantage there. So it comes down to offense, which is what matters for PGs for me. Payton is the better individual scorer, but I can't help but feel I'd rather have the ball mover/passer and floor spacer than the ball pounder here on most teams. Also, Stockton has both greater longevity, greater attitude, and has a huge gap late in their careers. I like Stockton over Payton

Stockton vs Isiah. Both guys I like over Payton because they're better at controlling the floor, making sure teammates are in the right place, etc. So choosing between them? Well Isiah is the more explosive scorer, but Stockton spreads the floor. Where I give Isiah the advantage is playoff heroics. Stockton couldn't rise up at certain points, not entirely his fault, that was just his game. Isiah rose his game to get his team 2 titles. I'm giving it to Isiah

Isiah vs Barry. Really really tough one. Both guys are champions, tough. Isiah was the better playmaker, Barry the better scorer, especially with the floor spacing he brought at SF. Screw it, I trust Isiah more. Barry's attitude just worries me. Isiah gets my vote.

Vote: Isiah Thomas

Nominate: Dominique Wilkins

vote: Gary Payton
nominate: Tracy McGrady

Really, why aren't people considering Payton? What's the argument against him?

I'll take Isiah over Pierce. But I'm the guy who has a hard time separating Havlicek and McGrady and we all just saw what happened in the last thread (without persuasive argumentation from a lot of voters IMO). Havlicek (with Baylor and Ewing) passed Rick Barry and I'm not exactly sure what changed for those people in 3 weeks...???

Dr Mufasa wrote:I have two groups here, I have Rick Barry and then I have Isiah, Stockton, Payton. So before I decide on the PGs before Barry, I'll decide whom I choose between them

Stockton vs Payton - Both are great defenders, Payton is better than him but the fact that Stockton is great on that end combined with the overall lesser value of PG defense means I don't put a ton into Payton's advantage there. So it comes down to offense, which is what matters for PGs for me. Payton is the better individual scorer, but I can't help but feel I'd rather have the ball mover/passer and floor spacer than the ball pounder here on most teams. Also, Stockton has both greater longevity, greater attitude, and has a huge gap late in their careers. I like Stockton over Payton

Stockton vs Isiah. Both guys I like over Payton because they're better at controlling the floor, making sure teammates are in the right place, etc.

(1) Payton is one of the GOAT defensive PG's because his size allows him to guard other guards as well. So it's not quite as small as the standard PG defense. In fact, that's part of why I keep saying Payton's not a classic PG...and that shouldn't be held against him. Dirk Nowitzki isn't a standard PF either, but it doesn't change his overall impact on the game.

I've been waiting to be swayed on Payton and just haven't seen a decent argument on what I'm missing. Having some of their careers overlap, it's hard for me to swallow peak Stockton over peak Payton. Stockton just so rarely ramped up his scoring...or the threat of scoring, as it were needed, against good defenses in critical spots. Payton, OTOH, is being criticized for not being a QB/decision-making, but the guy played on two of the greatest offenses in NBA history, so obviously his style is plenty conducive to elite offense...even if he isn't orchestrating it to the degree Nash or Magic could. But really, are you suggesting Stockton could?

I don't see Stockton necessarily being more valuable in the mutlipolar Sonics years next to Schrempf/Hawkins/Kemp, and I sure as heck don't see how in the world he could come close to what Payton did in a season like 2000. I don't think J-Kidd could touch Payton's 2000...

I've outlined how good some of the earlier Sonics teams were on offense, and I've outlined the success of a year like 2000 with Payton scoring a lot. Traditionally, you don't want the PG scoring a lot...but Payton isn't a traditional PG. And he's an outlying example, like Tiny Archibald (led league in scoring as a PG WHILE leading the league-best offense) and that shouldn't be held against, right?

Amazing to me to watch a guy with 8 top-10 MVP finishes and 6 top-6 MVP finishes be passed over without any thought, while John Havlicek - who arguably isn't as good defensively, OR offensively -- is voted in based on, what seems like, raw stats/reputation.

vote: Barry
nominate: Moncrief

I spent a lot of time tonight going back through the 80s Pistons, trying to get a grip on what I think went on. Right now I'm working with the hypothesis that there were 3 men that stood to the forefront for that team: Isiah Thomas was the offensive key, Dennis Rodman was the defensive key, and Chuck Daly was the mastermind. Dumars, Laimbeer, Microwave, Salley, Tripucka, Dantley, Aguirre, Mahorn, etc. all played their parts and played them well, but it seems to me that Zeke and Rodman are the two that stood out based upon how their arrivals on the scene and their eventual departures (or declines) changed their units for the better or worse.

Sticking with Zeke, the 1981 Pistons were 21 - 61 with an O-Rtg of 98.1. In 1982 Zeke and Kelly Tripucka came on the scene (and a year later Laimbeer came aboard), and for the next 2 years the team jumped to an average record 38 - 44 with all of the improvement coming on offense (O-Rtg average of 105.6, +7.5 from '81. The 2-year D-Rtg actually got 2 points worse from '81).

Then in 1984 Chuck Daly came in the coach. The team record immediately jumped up to 49 - 33, again with all of the improvement coming on offense (O-Rtg up to 111.5, 1st in NBA, while D-Rtg slipped to 108.1, 16th in league). Zeke, Tripucka and Laimbeer were still the main offensive cogs. Over the 7 years from 1984 thru 1990 the Pistons O-Rtg would never vary outside of the range of 109 to 111.4 pts/100 possessions. This is important, because almost all of the moving parts would change over this period...except for Zeke and Daily.

During Zeke's tenure from 1982 - 1986, the defense was pretty consistently around average in the league. After Daly came aboard, with Zeke running the ship, the Pistons averaged more than 47 wins per year from '84 - '86 with a strong offense (average O-Rtg 110, avg rank 5.7/23 teams) and a slightly below average defense (avg. D-Rtg 107.7, rank 13.3/23 teams). Dumars and Rick Mahorn joined the squad in 1986.

Then in 1987 the Pistons added two young guys to their big man rotation: Dennis Rodman and John Salley. They teamed up with Laimbeer and Mahorn to form a nasty defensive frontline, and the Bad Boys were born. Meanwhile, Tripucka got replaced as the frontcourt scorer by Adrian Dantley in '87, and 2 years later Dantley became Mark Aguirre. But the offense never really changed. For the next 4 years the offense stayed the same (avg O-Rtg 110.1, avg rank 8.5/24 teams) but the defense got stingy (avg D-Rtg 104.8, rank 3rd/24 teams). Rodman grew from a role player in '87 to their co-leading rebounder in '88 an '89 to the Defensive Player of the Year in '90 and '91).

Built on the consistently strong Isiah-led offense and the now dominant Rodman-led defense, the Pistons won 2 titles ('89 and '90) after coming bad-luck short of 2 more possible titles in '87 and '88. Then, in 1991, things started going down hill.

First, in '91, Isiah missed a lot of the season injured. Those that do the yearly in/outs point out that the Pistons didn't tank without Isiah, and this is useful to know. On the other hand, with Zeke playing roughly 3000 minutes per season the Pistons had been rock-solid around their average 110 O-Rtg for 7 years. I don't think it's coincidence that this season, with Zeke hobbling to only 1600 minutes and some change, they turned in their lowest mark since '83 (108.2 ORtg). That wasn't so steep of a decline on offense, but it was enough to have a definite negative impact on the win-loss record. The Defense was still strong, with Rodman winning his second straight DPoY while leading a stingy unit, but the magic was gone and the team won only "50" games.

Even though he would come back and play all of the next year, Isiah was clearly in decline by this point. And the offense continued to decline with him, down to 107.5 ORtg the next year (team wins 48 games, largely due to the still strong defense). Daly left after '92, and in '93 the offense maintained at a 107.4 Rtg but the defense fell off with Rodman missing 20 games and the Pistons were below .500 (40 - 42). Then, in '94, Rodman was gone and Zeke was a shell of himself in the last year before he retired, and the team won only 20 games.

Conclusions: So, all of that says what? To me, it illustrates that Zeke was the offensive "man" for those Pistons. His leading frontcourt scorer could swap out from Tripucka to Dantley to Aguirre with no discernible change in the team offense. The offense was the same from before Dumars to early less prominent Dumars to Finals MVP Dumars. The moving parts didn't matter, as long as Zeke was the one running the show. It wasn't until Zeke started missing games and slowing down due to injury/age that the offense started to slide. We don't have any good +/- data for the period, and we don't even have any in/out data until Zeke's last years. But after looking at the whole, I'm satisfied that he was having a consistent and large offensive impact for those Pistons teams. That essentially, he was their offensive anchor. He wasn't the leader of that dominant defense...that honor belongs to the defensive front line, eventually led by Rodman, but the offense stayed consistently strong and was still a vital (perhaps the limiting) cog in their titles. I'm satisfied with Zeke, here.

And frankly, especially after that ridiculously in-depth Rodman site that DocMJ linked a few threads back ( http://skepticalsports.com/?p=1214 ) and now really taking a closer look at those Pistons, and then subsequently Rodman's path through the Spurs and Bulls, I'm extremely tempted to nominate the Worm right now. I'm going to leave my nomination as TMac for now, as I nominated him last thread and he seems to have some traction right now, but Rodman needs to have his case made soon and I very well could still change my mind.

I also note the Dominique nomination, and I had actually forgotten about him when I did my official nominations last thread, but he's another that's extremely in the mix for me. Along with Mourning and a bunch of 70s big men. But for now, I'll leave it as TMac.

Vote: Isiah Thomas
Nominate: Tracy McGrady

This is pretty easy for me, as I basically had T-Mac and Pierce at a near coin flip, and because I had Barry definitely ahead of Havlicek.

Vote: Barry
Nominate: McGrady

drza wrote:Conclusions: So, all of that says what? To me, it illustrates that Zeke was the offensive "man" for those Pistons. His leading frontcourt scorer could swap out from Tripucka to Dantley to Aguirre with no discernible change in the team offense.

Well, here's Pistons ortg and drtg relatively to LA:



With Dantley and Augirre Pistons had two of three best offenses during Isiah career. And we see that except 1984 season, Pistons with Thomas and no Dantley or Aguirre were nothing special offensively.

We also see that they became really good team, when they started to be good on defensive end (and regressed offensively!) - 1987 is the first year when they won +50 games and had +3 SRS. So that's another argument for that defense (and Pistons were much more better defensively in the playoffs) was the most important for these teams and defense wasn't built around Thomas - so again, how much credit should Thomas get for that?

And Isiah's offensive impact is very questionable. We even have large sample of missed games when he was still in his prime (most games in 1991 season he played before injury, and only several months after he was finals MVP, and he still wasn't even 30 years old).
So what happened to Pistons offense when Thomas missed 34 games during 1991 season? Nothing. Their offense became even slightly (~ 1 ortg point) better without Thomas.
The same story in 1986, when Isiah missed 5 games. Much smaller sample, but it's still interesting that without him Pistons offense was better (this time more than 2 ortg points better).

PS
But I agree with you about Rodman and I'm also ready to start voting for him.

Perhaps it's time to review Kevin McHale's case:

Positives:

• By eye test, he is or is close to being the GOAT post scorer.
• His efficiency numbers match the eye test.
• 7 All-Star teams
• 8 All-NBA Defensive teams (four 1st, four 2nd).
• Excellent offensive rebounder.
• Lots of win shares.
• Very solid on the break, finishing or touch-passing as the case may be.
• 2x Sixth Man of the Year.

I believe McHale was the first guy to shoot 60% from the field and 80% from the line. If not, he was close to the first.

Negatives:

• Those efficiency numbers were on a stacked offensive team.
• Not a lot of longevity, especially with lowish minutes the seasons he did play. (But as good or better longevity as most who will be considered against him.)
• Not a lot of defensive rebounds. (But that wasn't his role; see below.)

Regarding that defensive rebounding: McHale played next to two outstanding rebounders who were also among the very best post-1970s outlet passers, and one of whom could also lead the break very well himself. McHale ran the floor instead. While McHale wasn't a special defensive rebounder to the eye test, I think his numbers understate his ability.

McHale had one season with really good league accolades -- 1st Team All-NBA, #4 on MVP behind three guys who are each in the top 6 on our list.

McHale's playoff numbers look quite level with his RS numbers.

Guys with lots of NBA All-Star appearances not nominated yet:

12 Elvin Hayes
12 Dolph Schayes*
11 Allen Iverson**
10 Paul Arizin*
10 Hal Greer
9 Dominique Wilkins
8 Vince Carter**
8 Dave DeBussechre
8 Alex English
8 Larry Foust*
8 Dikembe Mutombo
8 Bob Lanier
8 Bill Sharman*
8 Yao Ming**

* Some selections from before the shot clock era
** Guy who the fans were apt to vote even when his performance clearly didn't merit it

Not the most reliable of guides, obviously, but since I was checking it for oversights I thought I might as well post it too.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NBA_All-Stars

McHale and Cowens are among the 7s.

from another thread: viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1001777

Doctor MJ wrote:

bastillon wrote:Penbeast0, I can tell you rank Payton very high. what do you think about his playoff struggles ? he had two postseasons with >52% TS (I'm not considering 04-07 period, where he struggled epically anyway). aside from that ?

Code: Select all

year    TS%
 91    .430
 92    .482
 93    .466
 94    .511
 95    .491
 97    .506
 00    .518
 02    .467
 03    .459

Payton's scoring was non-existent pretty much his entire playoff career.

also, what about epic meltdowns in '94 and '95 ? why does Payton get away with this ? how about Payton's playoff career after Kemp left ? where was Payton's better offense than Kidd's ?

his offense in the playoffs was just poor, never at the all-star level aside from '96 and '98.

I'd like to see this addressed. The three guys tend to have pretty comparable regular seasons stats, but come playoff time Payton's clearly got worse than the other two. There's also the issue that Payton's Sonics tended to get upset in the playoffs in his prime.

Interestingly also, Isiah's stats are the ones that tended to go up in the playoffs, and he's also the one with a team tendency to overachieve in the playoffs.

My first instinct is:

1. Isiah
2. Kidd
3. Payton

Fencer reregistered wrote:At the risk of incurring Laimbeer's ire -- why would one pick Isiah Thomas over Paul Pierce? Thomas certainly has the all-NBA accolades, but otherwise they look pretty similar: A strong individual-producer youth, some championship run on a superb team when older, and annual all-star selections all the way through.

Perhaps it's which stats you value, and how good a defender you think they each were.

I just don't think it's Pierce's time yet, because I never felt he was an elite player in the league, that anyone would call him a superstar. That's pretty subjective, but I think guys get reputations among fans, teammates, opponents, and media for a reason.

Some here will will disagree, but it's pretty clear to me Isiah was the most important player on those Piston teams, both strategically and emotionally. We've entertained significant evidence on behalf of guys like Russell that's basically narrative based, and I see no reason not to with Isiah.