RealGM

During that stretch of years, which player would you pick or which player was better?

Kobe. McGrady in 2000 was just some good player with loads of potential.

In 2000, not really a contest, in Kobe's favor. In 2001, a lot closer but I'd still favor Kobe because of his superior defense. In 02, I'd say McGrady. In 03, I'd actually take Kobe. 30/7/6 against 32/6.5/5.5. 82 games vs 75, and better defense still. In 04, I'd be at first inclined to take McGrady because he was more productive, but he also had less need to share the ball and was still not as good a defender as Kobe.

I'm using raw stats in this post, but of course my opinion goes deeper than that. Their roles were different, and watching Kobe score 28 and 30 ppg alongside another 27 ppg scorer was still pretty damned impressive.

McGrady was always close to Kobe. Bigger, better rebounder, better shot-blocker. Not quite as adept at dribble penetration, but better in the post. Streakier shooter, though, and not as good at the line, never in quite the same kind of shape.

I'd have to say Kobe on this one. McGrady was his closest competition, but he was never quite as good as Bryant, even in his best year.

Tmac. Kobe had him in 2000, equal in 2001, Tmac had the rest

Keeslinator wrote:Tmac. Kobe had him in 2000, equal in 2001, Tmac had the rest

lulz

Kobe easily 2000-2002... can go either way in 2003-2004..

Overall Kobe

Never seen this thread before.

shouldnt the op be comparing 00-04 tmac to the one kobe of 05-08 where he was leader of the team

tsherkin wrote:In 2000, not really a contest, in Kobe's favor. In 2001, a lot closer but I'd still favor Kobe because of his superior defense. In 02, I'd say McGrady. In 03, I'd actually take Kobe. 30/7/6 against 32/6.5/5.5. 82 games vs 75, and better defense still. In 04, I'd be at first inclined to take McGrady because he was more productive, but he also had less need to share the ball and was still not as good a defender as Kobe.

I'm using raw stats in this post, but of course my opinion goes deeper than that. Their roles were different, and watching Kobe score 28 and 30 ppg alongside another 27 ppg scorer was still pretty damned impressive.

McGrady was always close to Kobe. Bigger, better rebounder, better shot-blocker. Not quite as adept at dribble penetration, but better in the post. Streakier shooter, though, and not as good at the line, never in quite the same kind of shape.

I'd have to say Kobe on this one. McGrady was his closest competition, but he was never quite as good as Bryant, even in his best year.

2000 was the year that Mcgrady really started to embrace himself as a superstar in this league, although Kobe dominated the Playoffs that season, in 2000-2001, its nearly impossible to not go with him.

But from late 2001 to mid 2004 I would seriously consider picking Tracy Mcgrady before Kobe Bryant. Perhaps its the fact that im biased (T-Mac is my all-time favourite player) but I think that as an individual player he produced more than Kobe with less. I mean, Mcgrady had to deal with some of the most atrocious teams and rosters to make the playoffs in the last decade. On the other hand, Kobe played with the best player in the league in this stretch of years, he shared the opposing defense attention with Shaq, and that is an advantage that I cant simply ignore.

2001/2002 is debatable, im probably going with Kobe here also. But 2002/2003, despite Kobe probably having his best individual season, I think T-Mac was simply godlike that year, the second best year ever for a wing player after prime Jordan. His offensive skills were slightly better than Kobe`s, he had a smoother and more intuitive/instinct way of approaching the game, Kobe was more about hard work. I think Mcgrady was a more complete scorer, he could literally score from everywhere on the floor and at all the ways possible, Kobe could do that too, but for example, I think Mcgrady was the slightly better 3pt shooter, the slightly better post player and the slightly better midrange spot-up shooter.

Appart from scoring, I think T-Mac was the slightly superior passer also, Kobe worked into the triangle-offense but always thought prime Mcgrady was a more skilled and talented passer. In terms of defensive impact, although Mcgrady was still a very good defender, I think he passed on his Toronto days type of defense to save energy for the offense, he literally single handedly carried that Orlando team on offense every single night. Kobe was more dominant and consistent on defense, but again, he didnt have to carry his team the way Mcgrady did.

For me, it would be something like this:

2000 - Kobe
2001 - Kobe
2002 - Mcgrady
2003 - Mcgrady
2004 - Mcgrady

And then from 2005 onwards, when Mcgrady started to suffer from injuries and so on, it was no longer a close comparison and it was definetely Kobe. But back in the days, the early 00s, this was probably the closest and most debated individual match-up of the entire league.

1999-2000 - Kobe, not close
2000-2001 - Kobe, but close
2001-2002 - Toss up, lean towards Kobe though
2002-2003 - Kobe, because of defense
2003-2004 - Toss up, lean towards Kobe though.

Kobe was pretty much better aroudn then and if you want to argue Kobe's prime (06-08) then it isn't close at all.

EarlTheGoat wrote:
2000 was the year that Mcgrady really started to embrace himself as a superstar in this league, although Kobe dominated the Playoffs that season, in 2000-2001, its nearly impossible to not go with him.

Yeah, sorry, I read 2000 as 99-00, so that's what I was talking about.

His offensive skills were slightly better than Kobe`s

Hmmm, not quite. He was shooting especially well that year and he decided to actually seek contact that year as well, which helped. Kobe was still a better shooter and ball-handler, but McGrady clicked that season, although I'll give you that Mac was (at least then) the clearly superior post player.

Appart from scoring, I think T-Mac was the slightly superior passer also, Kobe worked into the triangle-offense but always thought prime Mcgrady was a more skilled and talented passer.

I'd mind how you word that, if only because it's more a semantic issue than a skill issue. T-Mac was a lot more willing to pass, whereas Kobe a lot more likely to shoot, but from a technical standpoint, there was nothing that McGrady did in-game that Kobe couldn't as a passer.

2004 - Mcgrady

How do you account for his abominable efficiency in 04, Earl? How does that factor in?

This is another case of people judging a player based on team accomplishments and not actual individual impact/ability.

TMac's best 4 or 5 PSeasons are clearly superior to Kobe's.
Despite the fact that Kobe was a better M2M Defender TMac was still good at that aspect of defense and was a better help defender, so no I dont think any edge Kobe had on defense would be significant enough to be the difference between winning/losing so its irrelevant in my eyes guard defense in general is overrated unless your Scottie Pippen / Young Jordan and Kobe never had that sort of impact defensively (very overrated in that regard).

TMac was a better offensive player and had a better BBIQ and feel for the game he was also a better shooter before his back gave out, much better passer also.

Keep in mind that TMac has the edge in PS Play despite the fact that his best seasons came from 00-05 while Kobe's were from 06-10 after the new handcheck rules which made it far easier for Wing Players to score and do so effeciently.

Kobe has literally twice the number of Star level PSeasons so clearly he is the better player and obviously I think Kobe > TMac but over a 5 year stretch and between 00-04 I'll take TMac everytime.

Kobe won because he had a good supporting Cast and was playing next to a Top #2 GOAT player in Prime Shaq (98-02) and TMac lost because he was playing with a bunch of garbage and 300 pound shawn kemp.

TMac : Post Season - PER
Peak : 27.2
Top 5 : 26.2
Top 7 : 24.5

Kobe : Post Season - PER
Peak : 26.8
Top 5 : 24
Top 7 : 23

Kobe was one of the best SG's of the 00's right now I have him at #1 due to longevity

However when comparing single seasons or best 5 seasons I have him ranked behind
Wade, Lebron, TMac and Wade.

Kobe
minus 04

Regarding 2002-03, it's worth noting that Kobe put up some really good numbers while Shaq was out (giving him a comparable, perhaps even worse cast than T-Mac during that stretch). In 15 games he averaged 32.3 PTS (.520 TS), 8.3 REB, and 5.8 AST. I think what pushes Kobe over the top that year was what he did midway through the season with 9 consecutive 40+ point games (and 11 of 13 were 40+) and 16 consecutive 30+ point games. At the time the Lakers were struggling as Shaq was still dealing with conditioning issues as he worked himself back into the rotation, and Phil had asked that Kobe take it up a notch until the team started clicking. That stretch of games turned the Lakers season around, and I'm not sure if McGrady was capable of doing that. It's definitely close that year and I'm not sure if there is really a wrong answer. Both guys were amazing.

Didnt LA go like 3-9 or have some horrible record in the games Shaq was out of in 03?

So yea it makes those big scoring games a bit less impressive in my book.

Work over a season >>>> Work over a few games.

TMac had the higher scoring average in 03 and Shot better from both the field and 3PT Range.

He also had a higher AST% and a much much lower TOV%, TMac was unquestionably better that year.

Yeah the record was rough but that team was garbage that year. Then, when Shaq came back, they were still a .500 team. They didn't actually get going until Kobe started throwing up 40 point games. Not only that, but if I remember correctly, their schedule was unusually difficult while Shaq was out. Its hard to fault him for losing during this particular stretch.

The Lakers were 6-9 without Shaq in those games, but it's not as simple just looking at their record. More than half of those games were on the road, and most of the losses came at the very beginning of the season when the team was out of sync. Furthermore, the Lakers had to start off by playing the Spurs twice, the Blazers twice, the Mavs, and the Rockets who had Yao Ming. McGrady's Magic went 1-7 against those teams that same season, so it's a little naive to just look at the record and claim anything other than they lost to teams that were simply better. Kobe actually fared a little bit better by going 2-7 against those same teams -- minus Shaq that is. Against the remaining teams, he managed to go 4-2.

Kobe is a good player I just think TMac was better that year.

He really had all the tools Kobe had but he was a better athlete and a better decision maker.

He had horrible teams in his short 4-5+ year Prime so its unfair to say he couldn't have accomplished what Kobe did with similar Casts.

Kobe is definitely my #2 SG in that time period though and the gap between them isnt that large.

tsherkin wrote:

EarlTheGoat wrote:
2000 was the year that Mcgrady really started to embrace himself as a superstar in this league, although Kobe dominated the Playoffs that season, in 2000-2001, its nearly impossible to not go with him.

Yeah, sorry, I read 2000 as 99-00, so that's what I was talking about.

His offensive skills were slightly better than Kobe`s

Hmmm, not quite. He was shooting especially well that year and he decided to actually seek contact that year as well, which helped. Kobe was still a better shooter and ball-handler, but McGrady clicked that season, although I'll give you that Mac was (at least then) the clearly superior post player.

Appart from scoring, I think T-Mac was the slightly superior passer also, Kobe worked into the triangle-offense but always thought prime Mcgrady was a more skilled and talented passer.

I'd mind how you word that, if only because it's more a semantic issue than a skill issue. T-Mac was a lot more willing to pass, whereas Kobe a lot more likely to shoot, but from a technical standpoint, there was nothing that McGrady did in-game that Kobe couldn't as a passer.

2004 - Mcgrady

How do you account for his abominable efficiency in 04, Earl? How does that factor in?

Well Mcgrady really did have a drop in his efficiency in 2004, I guess he progressively got tired of carring that atrocious Orlando Magic team, day in and day out. Plus, his body started to show signs of having problems and losing explosiveness, something that was completely confirmed once he was traded to Houston.

But Kobe had a pretty mediocre year, easily worse than T-Mac`s. He averaged 24 ppg on .043 % efficiency, thats not the Kobe everybody was expecting, he really had a sub-par season, and then he was really bad in the Finals that year, factoring all that, I cant say Kobe was better than Mcgrady in 2004.

The most interesting year of the comparison is clearly 2002/2003, both are at their absolute peak, and its really impossible to go wrong with either of them. The thing about passing, well, im not saying Kobe couldnt pass as well as Mcgrady, but the second one had a superior basketball IQ and a better selection, that alone should count when we`re talking about passing capacity and all. Thats why im giving Mcgrady the slight edge here on passing.

Let me use the classic RealGM argument for this debate:

Tmac over Kobe because his game was "moar smoothe"