Isiah Thomas vs Steve Nash - the better player

[JordansBulls]

Last time we compared the two we used certain years.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1056219


Here was a thread before the realgm top 100
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1082729


With that in mind, who was the better player? Who would you rather have lead your team?

[Rupert Murdoch]

Isiah is better. It's hard to fathom him having ZERO NBA Finals appearances with Dirk and Finley or Amare and prime Marion on his team.

[Ballings7]

Again, it's Isiah Thomas. He's a better all-around PG, and more athletic in general. I also think his vocality being greater helps here.

While partly a victim of team make-up - I don't think Bruce Bowen would be able to bother Isiah as much over a series. Or Josh Howard (2006 G6 WCF 2nd half).

If Nash played with better interior defenses (both Dallas/Phx) and had a year-to-year secondary offensive creator (Phx), I think things go different for Nash. But the team's internal management was flawed in their mind-set in manipulating the team's personnel moves.

[SydneyDean726]

Zeke.

Nash gets the most credit in history for a player thats won NOTHING.

I mean for all Lebron's hate, at least he's been the finals twice.

Nash couldnt even get to one.

Steve Nash is one of the more overrated players in history.

[MarJJMar]

Steve Nash was/is far better.

Hope you realize that rings mean absolutely nothing when comparing 2 individual players. What is even funnier is that some of the brains on here will probably say that Stockton was better than Isiah because he leads the league in all time assists.

Nobody would want to make the argument that Ben Wallace is better than Barkley or Malone who did not win anything.

[MarJJMar]

While partly a victim of team make-up - I don't think Bruce Bowen would be able to bother Isiah as much over a series. Or Josh Howard (2006 G6 WCF 2nd half).

You act like Isiah Thomas never struggled in one half of a playoff game, hilarious.

[JordansBulls]

Nobody would want to make the argument that Ben Wallace is better than Barkley or Malone who did not win anything.

How is this even comparable? Isiah was considered a superstar for most of his career. Ben Wallace was not. Steve Nash wasn't considered a superstar until he was 31/32 years old.

[bastillon]

when prime Isiah was playing voters considered him to be a borderline all-NBA player who usually didn't make top10 in MVP votings.

when prime Nash was playing he beat KG, Duncan, Kobe, young LeBron, Dirk and past prime Shaq to MVP.

now what the hell changed during those 20 years that MVP caliber player is being compared to borderline all-NBA player ? are you saying Kobe or Duncan wouldn't make top10 in MVP votings in the late 80s ? how about Shaq or Garnett ?

so what really happened is that Isiah was a very good player, but happened to be on a team without a superstar and later he got all the credit for their success, despite not standing out among his teammates. 20 years later people forgot Isiah was losing to guys like Tripucka or Dale Ellis in MVP votings.

Isiah was a very good player but he was nowhere near MVP level at any point in his career. as a matter of fact when Isiah missed a lot of games in 91, Pistons barely regressed at all. meanwhile when Nash wasn't playing Suns collapsed and regressed to being a deep lottery team.

Isiah 1991 (34g) 1.3 to 3.8

Nash 2005-07 (16g) 13.2 to 7.5
Nash 2001 (12g) 6.6 to 5.2
Nash 2009 (8g) 6.3 to 2.5

Isiah should be compared to Deron Williams or Billups. he's not significantly better than either of those guys.

[bastillon]

Nobody would want to make the argument that Ben Wallace is better than Barkley or Malone who did not win anything.

How is this even comparable? Isiah was considered a superstar for most of his career. Ben Wallace was not. Steve Nash wasn't considered a superstar until he was 31/32 years old.

except Isiah was NEVER considered a superstar, as evidenced by his rare appearances on all-NBA 1st teams not to mention poor performances in MVP votings.

[Ballings7]

While partly a victim of team make-up - I don't think Bruce Bowen would be able to bother Isiah as much over a series. Or Josh Howard (2006 G6 WCF 2nd half).

You act like Isiah Thomas never struggled in one half of a playoff game, hilarious.

You assume this is how I act.

Ahhh, established longevity (in comparision to Nash)....

[Rupert Murdoch]

Nobody would want to make the argument that Ben Wallace is better than Barkley or Malone who did not win anything.

How is this even comparable? Isiah was considered a superstar for most of his career. Ben Wallace was not. Steve Nash wasn't considered a superstar until he was 31/32 years old.

except Isiah was NEVER considered a superstar, as evidenced by his rare appearances on all-NBA 1st teams not to mention poor performances in MVP votings.

How many times would Steve Nash have made 1st-team All-NBA with MJ and Magic in the league at the same time? Isiah made 1st-team All NBA in three of his first five seasons. He certainly would have more if he didn't have the misfortune of playing in the league at the same time as Magic and Michael.

[JordansBulls]

Nobody would want to make the argument that Ben Wallace is better than Barkley or Malone who did not win anything.

How is this even comparable? Isiah was considered a superstar for most of his career. Ben Wallace was not. Steve Nash wasn't considered a superstar until he was 31/32 years old.

except Isiah was NEVER considered a superstar, as evidenced by his rare appearances on all-NBA 1st teams not to mention poor performances in MVP votings.

How many guys have made 10+ allstar appearances that wasn't considered a superstar?

Isiah made 12 and missed 1 of those due to injury and 1 he didn't start.

1982 NBA
1983 NBA
1984 NBA
1985 NBA
1986 NBA
1987 NBA
1988 NBA
1989 NBA
1990 NBA
1991 NBA
1992 NBA
1993 NBA

And he still made the all nba teams 3x.

1983-84 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1984-85 NBA All-NBA (1st)
1985-86 NBA All-NBA (1st)



After 1986 he wasn't making any ahead of MJ and Magic. From 1987-1991 he had no shot actually.

[JustCame]

Zeke easily.

[bastillon]

How many times would Steve Nash have made 1st-team All-NBA with MJ and Magic in the league at the same time? Isiah made 1st-team All NBA in three of his first five seasons. He certainly would have more if he didn't have the misfortune of playing in the league at the same time as Magic and Michael.

and what's the excuse for being rated lower than Dale Ellis or Fat Lever ??

guys who finished higher than Isiah on MVP votings (among others):

82 - Robert Parish, Gus Williams, George Gervin, Sidney Moncrief, Jack Sikma, Dan Roundfield, Kelly Tripucka, Alex English, Bernard King, Adrian Dantley, Ray Williams
83 - Sidney Moncrief, Alex English, Buck Williams, Artis Gilmore, George Gervin, Jack Sikma, Jeff Ruland, Terry Cummings, Maurice Lucas, Alton Lister
84 - Bernard King, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
85 - Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Terry Cummings, Bernard King, Sidney Moncrief
86 - Charles Barkley, Sidney Moncrief, Alex English, Dominique Wilkins
87 - Kevin McHale, Charles Barkley, Dominique Wilkins
88 - Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Fat Lever, John Stockton, Alex English
89 - John Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Tom Chambers, Mark Price, Brad Daugherty, Robert Parish, Mark Eaton, Moses Malone, Chris Mullin, Larry Nance
90 - Tom Chambers, John Stockton, Buck Williams, Clyde Drexler
91 - Clyde Drexler, Dominique Wilkins, Terry Porter, John Stockton,

[ronnymac2]

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

[bastillon]

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

what's wrong with that ? there's a serious issue when you're reportedly a superstar dragging your team to championships and during these years you dont even make 3rd all-NBA team and finish behind your teammate Dumars. this makes no sense...unless you weren't really a superstar.

[ronnymac2]

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

what's wrong with that ? there's a serious issue when you're reportedly a superstar dragging your team to championships and during these years you dont even make 3rd all-NBA team and finish behind your teammate Dumars. this makes no sense...unless you weren't really a superstar.

Actually it makes perfect sense.

To me, he was a superstar in the mid-80s. That's where many of his greatest moments occurred and where he had his greatest seasons. The Pistons were based around him back then. He was most valuable to Detroit when they were at their least dominant, when they relied on him the most. Makes sense, as one player can't make a champion.

When he got a great team around him, his value went down a bit because Detroit had alternate ways of winning games. That, combined with a slight decline in Isiah's play (a natural decline), meant he was not going to be getting MVP votes. That doesn't take away from him as an individual, however.

Note: When I say Isiah was a superstar, I don't mean he was MJ/Magic/Bird good. I mean he was 2011 Derrick Rose good for a lengthy period of time (that's a good thing, as I'm a Rose fan). Now, Isiah ddn't win an MVP or gather massive amounts of votes because the perfect storm of events necessary for a borderline top-5ish player like Thomas/Rose to eclipse the guys above him and nab an MVP never happened for Isiah like they did with Rose.

Or Nash for that matter. That's no reason to chop down the play of Thomas.

That said, again, I'd take Nash.

[bastillon]

When he got a great team around him, his value went down a bit because Detroit had alternate ways of winning games. That, combined with a slight decline in Isiah's play (a natural decline), meant he was not going to be getting MVP votes. That doesn't take away from him as an individual, however.

his teammate made all-NBA team over him playing the same position (guard) and that doesn't take away from him either ? why do you regard Isiah as clearcut top5 player in that league ? can you present any sort of analogy ? (top5 player in the league repeatedly not making all-NBA teams despite having great team)

Rose won MVP and so his case has nothing to do with the argument I am presenting here. I'm saying Isiah wasn't significantly better than his teammates during championship years (DPOY Rodman, all-NBA Dumars, always underrated Laimbeer). that's based on the eye test (Laimbeer), stats (Dumars), awards (Rodman) and MVP votings.

why didn't Isiah make 3rd all-NBA team during championship years ?

[Doctor MJ]

I'd go with Nash, but it's close. Some of the arguments used against Thomas are pretty poor though.

Seriously, MVP voting? C'mon...

I dunno, the fact that Isiah wasn't taken seriously as an MVP candidate even when his team was the best in the league seems to be a pretty good indicator of how contemporary observers saw him. Let's remember that team success has pretty much always meant drastic overrating of players as MVP candidate. Unseld won an MVP, Jermaine O'Neal finished 3rd in MVP voting. Isiah couldn't even get that going for himself.

[cpower]

If you want to win championships - Isiah Thomas
If you want to win fans - Steve Nash