RealGM

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Mark Price

1x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-Star

Chris Webber

1x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
Rookie of the Year 1994
5x All-Star


Shawn Kemp

3x All-NBA 2nd team
6x All-Star

Hal Greer

Hall of Fame 1982
7x All-NBA 2nd
1x NBA Championship
10x All-Star


Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star

Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar


Tiny Archibald

Hall of Fame 1991
3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
NBA Champion in Boston 1981
6x All-Star


Bobby Jones

1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star

VOTE:

At the defensive end, we have the versatile Bobby Jones who made 1st team All-Defense more than anyone else in history in his 1st 10 seasons. An extremely efficient shooter who regularly made top 10 in fg% despite not being a center, a good shotblocker who racked up steals, and a very good passer and coach on the floor as well -- the man Larry Brown called Superglue. At the opposite end of the spectrum we have Shawn Kemp, one of the greatest basketball bodies ever with sometimes dominant impact but whose immaturity kept him from reaching his potential.

For scorers, Chris Webber put up 20/10+ for his 5 year peak. Adrian Dantley's raw numbers put everyone except maybe prime Shaq and Barkley in the shade for his combination of scoring and efficiency, while David "Skywalker" Thompson was the man Michael Jordan says he modeled his game after. Hal Greer was a solid second banana to Dolph Schayes then to Wilt Chamberlain for more than a decade. Mark Price was an accurate sharpshooter and solid offensive PG. Finally, Nate "Tiny" Archibald combined great scoring and high assist totals, only man to ever lead the league in both in the same year.

I will go with Bobby Jones here, he led a team of weak defense scorers to the best record in either league as a rookie star and he was superb in a variety of roles from F/C in his early years to F/G in his final ones, from starter at 2 different positions to sixth man of the year. This is a guy who gladly sacrificed minutes and numbers for his team and who could be a key part of virtually any contending team.

Doctor MJ wrote:Denver's rise to prominence came Jones' rookie year, and their fall away from elite SRS status came in '77-78.

How did that fall happen?

Denver's DRtg in '76-77: #1 in the league
Denver's DRtg in '77-78: 15th out of 22

The big difference? Denver went from being amazing at generating turnovers, to not so much.

We look at steals and see they went down a ton, and that much of that was Jones getting less steals (though steal leading the team in steals).

We consider that the lack of steals might be due to inability to recover from perimeter gambling and look at blocks. We see that blocks when down quite a bit, and that much of that was Jones getting less blocks.

Of course even if you're convinced, you might say, "Well that makes for a really short period for Jones as having huge impact", and that's a good point. I'm coming down similar to what I said about Ginobili: Minutes are a major issue, but per minute wise, Jones was still having strong positive impact for quite a while. In the end, in terms of the total amount of elite-level minutes, I think Jones is pretty solid compared to the competition he's facing this far down in the project.

VOTE BOBBY JONES

Point Guards -- not seeing these guys yet, the other positions are stronger
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker
Slater Martin?

Shooting Guards -- Surprised Greer went in ahead of Sharman
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond

Shooting Forward -- Some incredible talent -- though short peaks really hurt Hawkins and Hagan:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

Power Forward -- the strongest position with lots of good candidates
Jerry Lucas
Larry Nance
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire

Centers: starting to run a little short here
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma?
Walt Bellamy
Neil Johnston
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Lucas and Nance are the best PF types (and probably over Shawn Marion too) for consistency and star quality over time. Jerry Lucas wasn't a great defender but he was the other main star on those great Cinncinnati offenses with his rebounding and outside game allowing Oscar to work his magic inside -- then Lucas turned around and helped the defense and passing oriented Knicks win another title with Willis Reed injured and ineffective. He was a great rebounder, a very efficient outside scoring big, and a terrific passer who gets less love than his numbers because of his Asberger's type personality but one of the best for a long time. For peak, Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

For now, NOMINATE JERRY LUCAS -- a stretch big with great IQ who is also a top rebounder.

Vote: Shawn Kemp
Nominate: Brad Daugherty

I'm confused, I thought there was a runoff to be had between Jones and Thompson? Instead I see a new thread with both of them still as nominees. What am I missing?

I was hoping someone would post a preference in the old thread thus letting me clean one out of this one this morning . . . but apparently not so I will just lock this thread and remove it this evening if no movement.

Vote Webber

Nominate Sikma

Vote: Webber
Nominate: Ben Wallace

And Cliff Hagan is on my immediate radar for upcoming nominations.

Vote: Tiny
Nominate: Lucas

Vote: Bobby Jones

Beast's already quoted my take on him. I see a guy who did all the right things, and whose gaudy stats sure appear to have been a reflection of legit top tier defensive impact.

Leaving the nomination be for a bit.

I still think though people are sleeping on Elton Brand. This guy was so dang solid. I can't imagine drafting Ben Wallace for my team over Brand unless I already have a great all around big man.

Vote: Tiny
Nominate: Dandridge

Based on previous discussions, Dandridge was considered very similar to Worthy, and clearly a step above Shawn Marion. He should get serious consideration at this point. TMAC4MVP had a great post about him in an earlier thread.

vote: Archibald
nominate: Ben Wallace

Vote: Bobby Jones
Nominate: Jerry Lucas

penbeast0 wrote:
Shooting Guards -- Surprised Greer went in ahead of Sharman
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Earl Monroe

Shooting Forward -- Some incredible talent -- though short peaks really hurt Hawkins and Hagan:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

What's up with Chris Mullin? He was on your list like ten spots ago... now he is gone? Has he fallen completely off the map?
A Mullin vs. Marion debate wouldn't be one-sided, I think - and he is on top of your SF-list.
I assume, Mullin has enough for a case in the top100 - why is he completely ignored? A very good scorer with great efficiency. That's a player whom I would want to be on my team. He has his disadvantages, but who hasn't at this point?

Brand vs Sikma is an interesting comparison. Brand is on my radar in the next 5-10 spots

Offensively Brand is the more talented scorer... but the gap isn't that big in scoring outside of 06. Sikma has a great passing element

Defensively Brand blocks more shots but Sikma plays C and seems to have more defensive anchor respect from peers (makes 2nd team defensively at one point), and anchors a lot of good defensive teams albeit with more help. The Sonics title team was based on defense (1st DRTG, 14th/23 ORTG) - probably with the best defensive backcourt in the league, but nonetheless it's reasonable to think Sikma in the middle was huge there

I think they're very close and solid, non dominant players, but that's enough to get a nomination at this point - I lean towards Sikma if only because from a draft/team building perspective, taking the C position is what I like - and because admittedly, Brand's results as a 1st option (which is the situation you'd take him over Sikma) is somewhat concerning. If you look at the rundown of Brand Clippers seasons vs Andrew Bogut Milwaukee seasons, it's actually pretty damn close to a mirror success wise with the one big year (w/ a large assist to Cassell and Salmons leading the offense), the middling years and a few high 20 W disaster years. Obviously Bogut is nowhere near this spot (maybe in 5 years though?), and we should be judging players on what they are as players and Brand certainly seems like he has the game for a top 90 spot - BUT, it still worries me somewhat to see Brand's LA Clippers follow the exact same model as Dantley's Jazz and Bogut's Bucks, especially the 03 and 04 Clippers at 27 and 28 Ws - that's pretty low for any franchise player. If it's accepted you're not getting anywhere with Brand leading you, I'd definitely choose to draft the do it all center in Sikma as my complimentary player

With that said, I think Brand a top 100 guy pretty easily

ThunderDan9 wrote:

penbeast0 wrote:
Shooting Guards -- Surprised Greer went in ahead of Sharman
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Earl Monroe

Shooting Forward -- Some incredible talent -- though short peaks really hurt Hawkins and Hagan:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

What's up with Chris Mullin? He was on your list like ten spots ago... now he is gone? Has he fallen completely off the map?
A Mullin vs. Marion debate wouldn't be one-sided, I think - and he is on top of your SF-list.
I assume, Mullin has enough for a case in the top100 - why is he completely ignored? A very good scorer with great efficiency. That's a player whom I would want to be on my team. He has his disadvantages, but who hasn't at this point?

Good catch, put him back along with Mitch Richmond, though not really sold on Richmond.

VOTE

Bobby Jones – penbeast0, DoctorMJ, lukekarts

Shawn Kemp – JordansBulls

Chris Webber – Dr Mufasa, drza

Tiny Archibald – ronnymac2, Laimbeer, therealbig3, DavidStern

NOMINATE

Jerry Lucas – penbeast0, Laimbeer, lukekarts

Brad Daugherty – JordansBulls

Jack Sikma – Dr Mufasa

Deron Williams – ronnymac2

Ben Wallace – drza, DavidStern

Bobby Dandridge – therealbig3