RealGM

Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

Newest addition:

Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star

Mark Price

1x All-NBA 1st Team
3x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-Star

Chris Webber

1x All-NBA 1st team
3x All-NBA 2nd team
1x All-NBA 3rd team
Rookie of the Year 1994
5x All-Star


Shawn Kemp

3x All-NBA 2nd team
6x All-Star

Hal Greer

Hall of Fame 1982
7x All-NBA 2nd
1x NBA Championship
10x All-Star


Adrian Dantley

Hall of Fame 2008
2x All-NBA 2nd Team
Rookie of the Year 1977
6x All-Star

Chauncey Billups

1x ALL-NBA 2nd
2x ALL-NBA 3rd
2x All-Defense 2nd
Finals MVP 1987
NBA CHampion
5x All-STar


Bobby Jones

1x All-ABA 2nd team
NBA Champion 1983
10x All-Defense 1st team (2x in ABA)
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Sixth Man of the Year 1983
5x All-Star

VOTE:

Shawn Kemp, Chris Webber, and Jerry Lucas were both big F/Cs. Kemp was athletic and active defensively although foul prone; Webber was one of the greatest passing bigs although not a particularly good rebounder and with a surprisingly bad foul draw as well as several bonehead plays in clutch situations. Lucas was a great rebounder with outstanding shooting range who the voters of his day put into the HOF over Willis Reed among others; the high BBIQ choice of the 3.

Bobby Jones was more a SF/PF mix although he played some C and even some SG. Unparallelled defensive accolades are his calling card with 10 straight 1st team All-Def awards, something no one else has ever approached; but also a super team player who sacrificed minutes and scoring when asked and a very efficient shooter among the league leaders.

Adrian Dantley was one of the greatest scorers ever. High volume at efficiency only approached by the Charles Barkley/Reggie Miller's of the world. That's it though as his defense and team ethos were frequently questioned.

At guard, Hal Greer was a consistent 20ppg threat in the 60s, Chauncey Billups one of the most efficient guards of the last decade with his 3 point shooting, ability to draw fouls, and extremely low turnover rates, and Mark Price was another efficient shooting PG though without the defense of Greer and Billups.


VOTE BOBBY JONES

Point Guards -- not seeing these guys yet, the other positions are stronger
Tim Hardaway
Lenny Wilkens
Dennis Johnson
Tony Parker?
Gus Williams?

Shooting Guards -- About ready for any of these guys except Richmond
Joe Dumars
Bill Sharman
Earl Monroe
Chris Mullin
Mitch Richmond

Shooting Forward -- Probably the deepest spot left:
Shawn Marion
Connie Hawkins
Cliff Hagan
Carmelo Anthony? Dandridge/Wilkes/Wise?

Power Forward -- Not sure how much to value Paul Silas/BuckWilliams/Bill Bridges types
Larry Nance
Terry Cummings
Elton Brand
Amare Stoudamire
Paul Silas

Centers: see no real argument for Brad Daugherty over Daniels, Sikma, Johnston, or even Bellamy
Mel Daniels
Jack Sikma
Neil Johnston
Walt Bellamy
Yao Ming

Looking at the candidates -- Marion and Nance give the best combination of longevity and superb 2-way play (very similar careers). For peak, Connie Hawkins was the best player to play in the ABA pre Erving (and yes, that includes Rick Barry) but his tragic story kept him out of the NBA until age 27 after a serious knee injury (the first of several). Mel Daniels won TWO MVP's and 3 championships in the ABA -- yes it was an inferior league and his career wasn't that long but it was better ball than the NBA in the 50s and he was basically Alonzo Mourning as a player with better rebounding but less shotblocking -- similar offense and attitude. He'd be a star even today though probably not a 20ppg scorer.

Love to see analysis of Dumars v. Sharman, Dandridge v. Hagan, Nance v. Marion, TCummings v. EBrand, Hawkins v. Daniels.

Nomination switched AGAIN to Connie Hawkins this time (and leaning Shawn Marion over Nance again . . . a lot of tough calls at this point).

Vote: B. Jones
Nominate: Dandridge

Here's a previous post about Dandridge that TMAC4MVP made, using some info that ElGee posted:

TMAC4MVP wrote:How does Dandridge stack up w/ Dumars?

ElGee had some great stuff on him in the RPOY.

ElGee wrote:Bullets-Hawks
G1+G2:: Dandridge 66 total points.
G3: Hayes 19 pts (0 4th) 14 reb. Dandridge 15 pts.
G4: Dandridge 15 of 29 in 4th quarter including tying shot w/15 seconds left. Hayes 31 pts.
G7: Dandridge 19 of 29 in 4th, 14 of game's final 16 for Dandridge. Hayes 39 points 15 rebounds 3 blocks on 17-34 shooting in 48 min. Was 50-37 reb edge and 25-14 OReb edge.
*For series: Dandridge 23.6 ppg Hayes 23.4 ppg

Bullets-Spurs
G1: Dandridge 27 points.
G2: Hayes jammed his finger 2 minutes in. Gervin 34 points. Dandridge 19. Hayes 15.
G3: Hayes 15 pts 7-20 3-6 FT's. Dandrige 28 points and "held" Kenon to 11 points. Gervin 29 points.
G4: Gervin 42 points, 20 in 3rd (18 in a row). Dandridge 6 points.
G5: Hayes 24 pts 22 rebounds. Dandridge 13 points. *Doug Moe doubled Dandridge and Hayes a lot. The Bullets "started doubling Gervin near the lane.” 28 points for Gervin.
G6: Hayes 25 pts. Gervin 20 pts (guarded by Dandridge and Grevey).
G7: Gervin 42 points: 8 in 1st half, 34 in 2nd half. Hayes blocked Silas with 4 seconds left. Dandridge 37 points, 11 in 4th, including GW shot w/8 seconds. Hayes 23 points. *A number of reports note Greg Ballard abusing Ice downlow down the stretch bc SAS couldn't put him on Dandridge. 19-12 for Ballard in the game.

AP report on Dandridge: http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=LA ... ayes&hl=en

“He may be the best pressure player in the league,” said Bernie Bickerstaff.
Doug Moe also felt he was the key to the Bullets.

This was only for the '79 season too. In '78, he outscored Julius Erving in the ECF (many reports claimed he outplayed him). In '71, when the Bucks won the championship, it was actually Dandridge who was second on the team in scoring (after Kareem, obviously) in the post-season. He even did 20/10 in the finals that year too. Monster clutch playoff performer (he's had 6 post seasons of at least 19 PPG, with 4 of them being over 20).

Dude was clutch, very good on both ends, and often underrated b/c he played with other very good players, that people often forget to consider him a star as well. I mean check out these quotes from Paul Silas, and Rick Barry (Silas first, then Barry):

"He was a great shooter, especially mid-range, and he could get his shot off on almost anybody. He really understood how to play. When they needed a hoop--even when he was playing with Milwaukee and Oscar and those guys--he shined. Of course, with Washington he was one of the focal points of that team. He just had the uncanny ability of making big shots at the right time. He talked the game and understood it and imparted that (to his teammates). He was very, very smart about the game and how he fit within the scheme and how he wanted everybody else to fit."

"He was an outstanding player. He's one of those guys that you respect because you know that he is going to show up to play every night. (He was) a good shooter, he was kind of deceptive with his moves. He wasn't the kind of guy who was going to beat you with blistering speed and quickness but he understood how to get the most out of the talent that he had."

Doesn't that sound eerily familiar to a Paul Pierce sort player (at least post '08)? Obviously, he isn't as good, but he could create his shot, play off other great players, was an awesome defender, very good shooter, clutch, could rebound, and had underrated play-making (w/being more a focal point in Washington, he had a peak year doing nearly 5 assists, and nearly 6 in the post-season). Not to mention good versatility, much like Pierce. I was watching one of the Finals games, and the commentators referred to Dandridge as "Mr. Clutch." Obviously that didn't really stick and was already taken, lol, but still, somewhat indicative of how he was viewed at the time (that, and finishing top 5 in MVP voting once).

And he did this for a solid 8-9 years, though admittedly, not as great as the '79 season, but still very good in it's own regards. That sort of longevity is similar to Dumars, if not greater.

Considering I have Dumars coming up next, and that Dumars already gained some momentum in previous posts, and that Dandridge is pretty similar to Worthy, and that he's pretty clearly better than Ben Wallace or Shawn Marion imo (who are either being nominated, or are close to it, I feel), I think this is the time he should get in.

VOTE: Shawn Kemp
NOMINATE: Brad Daugherty

As a Bullet fan in the 70s, obviously I loved Dandridge. My problem with him in hindsight is (a) he never seemed to take over and dominate his opponenets the way Shawn Marion or even Larry Nance did (an eye test thing), (b) he pulled a Vince Carter after Kareem left in Milwaukee, basically sulking his way out of town (and to the Bullets).

I have him right in a group with Jamaal Wilkes and Willie Wise, clearly behind Marion as a regular season star (same scoring but Marion was more efficient, played in a slower system, and is a clearly superior rebounder) but can see the clutch argument that people used for Worthy applying to Dandridge to bring him to the forefront of this group. The only trouble is that that argument is a little stronger for Cliff Hagan, though the regular season performance might not be.

I don't see Daugherty over Daniels at all. He's a better passer from the post, they are similar in scoring (Daugherty in a tougher league admittedly), but Daniels was a rebounding beast and Alonzo Mourning level defender (if you let him thug up like the ABA did). Plus Daniels has the MVPs and the rings to back up his impact while Daugherty always seemed to come up short. Daugherty was more a rich man's Brad Miller while Daniels was a rich man's Emeka Okafor.

Vote - Greer
Nominate - Daniels

Vote Webber

Nominate Daniels

Sikma, Gus Williams and Carmelo are the 3 guys next on my nominee list, but they're not getting tractio - So I will jump on board with Daniels

Penbeast, from someone who was present in those times, how do you feel about Tony Parker vs Gus Williams? Williams career seems like a rich man's version of Parker's on the outside because he has much bigger playoff highs than Parker, and seems more important offensively to the Sonics at their best than Parker to the Spurs - and it looks to me like Williams D is better because he's a top notch ball thief. Williams also peaks higher in accolades w/ a 1st and 2nd team All-NBA, two top 10 MVP votes - in 82 he makes 1st team All-NBA over an awesome Magic season, and finishes ahead of him and Gervin in MVP voting at 5th, that's a pretty impressive peak season accolades wise among the players left

I tend to agree with all of the above; the only trouble is that Parker's teams keep playing so well that I have to keep looking at him and asking how good he really is

Interested to see ElGee's take on Gus's team impact v. Parker's

SF is extremely deep . . . was Walker better than Marion, Dandridge, Wilkes, Wise, Hagan, or Hawkins? Certainly in the mix.

Peak year comps:

Sharman 1956 37.5min 3.5reb 4.5ast 19.1pts .508ts% (5th in MVP) -- league ave 99.0pts on .458ts%
Dumars 1991 38.1min 2.3reb 5.5ast 20.4pts .552ts% (10th in MVP) -- league ave 106.3pts on .534ts%
adjusted, Sharman is clearly the better offensive player; as Dumars is clearly better on D

Hagan 1959 37.5min 10.9reb 3.4ast 23.7pts .516ts% (9th in MVP) -- league 108.2pts on .457ts%
Dandridge 1979 33.7min 5.7reb 4.7ast 20.4pts .553ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.3pts on .530ts%
Hagan looks like the better offensive player, Dandridge the better defender though it is closer

Nance 1987 37.2min 8.7reb 3.4ast 22.5pts .591ts% (no MVP votes) -- league 109.9pts on .538ts%
Marion 2006 40.3min 11.8reb 1.8ast 21.8pts .607ts% (.001 MVP votes) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
I'm tempted to use 01 or 03 for Marion since they are nearly as good and without Nash but 06 was the year he carried the team with Amare injured. Marion is clearly better this year.

Cummings 1985 34.5min 9.1reb 2.9ast 23.6pts .536ts% (5th in MVP) -- league 110.8pts on .543ts%
E. Brand 2006 39.4min 10.0reb 2.6ast 24.7pts on .580ts% (7th in MVP) -- league 97.0pts on .537ts%
Brand looks better here but Cummings peak was longer.

Vote: Chris Webber
Nominate: Deron Williams

I probably slept on Webber a little bit before. I don't see a reason why he couldn't be a fantastic number two.

Vote: Bobby Jones once again. Not sure what more to say.

I will say though that I totally understand why others aren't convinced with Bobby. I remain willing to engage for anyone with specific questions.

Didn't get around to nominating anyone last time so I want to make sure I put a name down here, though my mind remains open.

Nominate: Connie Hawkins

Alright, so first anyone not familiar with Connie, needs to do themselves a favor and research him a bit. Watch some video. Look at the man's hands. He palms the ball like Wilt Chamberlain, and actually uses this ability to throw defenders off balance to great effect. And then of course there is the air game. People say that this started with Baylor, but to me it's with Connie that you start seeing an old school Jordan kind of guy, albeit one whose greater height let him play center as needed.

To say a bit analytically:


-Connie has his career derailed with point shaving allegations in college. He dominates the short lived ABL in '61-62 earning the MVP and championship there for the Pittsburgh Rens. Then gets a shot with the ABA in '67-68.

-Connie utterly dominates the ABA. Mega numbers in the regular season, even bigger numbers in the playoffs, earning the MVP and championship there for the Pittsburgh Pipers, who promptly turned terrible without Connie in subsequent years.

Okay, now it's obligatory to point out that the ABA was weaker in those early years. Let's think about what that should mean:

-People are bringing up Mel Daniels and I understand why. Let's remember though that Daniels was in the ABA the same time as Connie, and only a couple years younger, and in his statistical prime.

There was absolutely zero doubt who was better. Connie tore the league apart leading weak talent to the title, Daniels was simply a solid player. For comparison, in Daniels entire career he earned 23.9 offensive Win Shares. In the season and a half Connie played in the ABA, he earned 21.5.

And incidentally, despite the fact Connie's career was a fraction of what it could have been, he still earned more career WS than Daniels. I don't mean to make WS out to be a holy grail, but when we have a comparison where it's simply a question of whether longevity wins out over peak, I kind of taken as a given that a stat like WS should favor the longevity guy, and it doesn't here.

Now, two other players put up obscene big numbers in the early ABA: Spencer Haywood and Rick Barry. But Haywood should also be getting consideration now, and Barry was in a long time ago. More than that, I don't see how you can say either of them ever had an ABA season that matched Connie's debut. In particular if you look at Haywood's advanced stats, you'll see he wasn't actually a very efficient scorer, and he played insane minutes which inflated things a bit more. I wouldn't consider him to be as good as Connie or Barry were.

What about Connie's transition to the NBA? Well, instant All-NBA 1st team scoring 25 PPG more efficiently than Elgin Baylor ever did despite the fact he'd already had some major injury issues by that point.

ronnymac2 wrote:I probably slept on Webber a little bit before. I don't see a reason why he couldn't be a fantastic number two.

Hmm, well I actually see a pretty major problem there. Remember what happened in Sacramento: Webber gets hurt, the team changes its offense, runs better than it ever did in the past, and when Webber returns he has a chance to show how he can fit his game in with other talent that's not following his lead. Instead he once again sucks up all the oxygen in the room and disrupts the flow that had been working so well.

I actually think it's a lot hard to predict who will be good sidekicks and role players than stars. In LA once with each team, people thought Odom would be an ideal #2 because he'd been a promising #1 with a willingness to pass, and each time it didn't work. He'd just end up oscilating between playing like a #1 and playing like a role player. It took him years on the Lakers to find something like a goldilocks balance, and even that wasn't as a #2 but as a 6th Man.

The ABL may have been better than the early ABA actually -- they had some NBA players that were actually pretty good -- George Yardley who led the NBA in scoring and finished 3rd and 4th in MVP voting and who had retired only a year before (still scoring 20/G in the slower NBA when he retired) and Bill Bridges, a 3 time All-Star and longtime Paul Silas style PF plus some scrubs.


Probably right that Hawk should go before Daniels; Connie is the Bill Walton of the ABA. Mel Daniels was basically finished by age 29 though as lack of medical treatment for his knees left him a part time player at age 30 when he retired (made an abortive comeback 2 years later but it didn't stick). Hawk's knees were even worse though he lasted almost as long but then he was more an airborne player.

penbeast0 wrote:The ABL may have been better than the early ABA actually -- they had some NBA players that were actually pretty good -- George Yardley who led the NBA in scoring and finished 3rd and 4th in MVP voting and who had retired only a year before (still scoring 20/G in the slower NBA when he retired) and Bill Bridges, a 3 time All-Star and longtime Paul Silas style PF plus some scrubs.


Probably right that Hawk should go before Daniels; Connie is the Bill Walton of the ABA. Mel Daniels was basically finished by age 29 though as lack of medical treatment for his knees left him a part time player at age 30 when he retired (made an abortive comeback 2 years later but it didn't stick). Hawk's knees were even worse though he lasted almost as long but then he was more an airborne player.

Yeah actually, after writing my post for Connie I find myself thinking I should have started nominating him many threads ago.

VOTE:

Bobby Jones – penbeast0, Doctor MJ, therealbig3

Chris Webber – Dr Mufasa, ronnymac2

Shawn Kemp – JordansBulls

Hal Greer -- Laimbeer

NOMINATE:

Connie Hawkins – penbeast0, Doctor MJ

Mel Daniels – Laimbeer, Dr Mufasa

Bob Dandridge – therealbig3

Brad Daugherty -- JordansBulls

Deron Williams – ronnymac2

vote: Webber
nominate: Connie Hawkins