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Criteria: Take into account both peak and career play, era dominance, impact on the game of basketball, and how well their style of play and skills would transcend onto different eras. To be more exact, how great they were at playing the game of basketball.

Voting Will End In 2 Days -- Please vote and nominate

NOTE: PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN POSTING DISCUSSION FOR THEIR CHOICES RECENTLY. LISTS WITHOUT DISCUSSION WILL NOT BE COUNTED IN THE FINALS VOTE

Newest addition: Joe Dumars

Hall of Fame 2006
1x All-NBA 2nd Team
2x All-NBA 3rd Team
4x All-Defense 1st team
1x All-Defense 2nd team
Finals MVP 1989
2x NBA Champion
6x All-Star

Tim Hardaway

1x 1st Team All-NBA
3x 2nd Team All-NBA
1x 3rd Team All-NBA
5x All-Star

Carmelo Anthony

1x All-NBA 2nd
3x All-NBA 3rd
4x All-Star


Gus Williams

1x 1st team All-NBA
1x 2nd team All-NBA
NBA Champion 1979
2x All-Star

Bill Laimbeer

2x NBA Champion
4x All-Star


Mel Daniels

2x ABA MVP
4x 1st Team All-ABA
1x 2nd Team All-ABA
3x ABA Champion
ABA Rookie of the Year 1969
7x ABA All-Star


Brad Daugherty

1x NBA 3rd Team
5x All-Star


Larry Nance

1x NBA All-Def 1st team
2x NBA All-Def 2nd team
3x All-Star


Jerry Lucas

3x All-NBA 1st team
2x All-NBA 2nd team
1 NBA Championship 1973
Rookie of the Year 1964
7x All-Star


NOTE: PEOPLE HAVE NOT BEEN POSTING DISCUSSION FOR THEIR CHOICES RECENTLY. LISTS WITHOUT DISCUSSION WILL NOT BE COUNTED IN THE FINALS VOTE

VOTE:
This is a vote among the bigs as none of the wings or points were particularly dominant or had as key a role. The best numbers belong to Jerry Lucas -- he and Mel Daniels are clearly the best rebounders with Bill Laimbeer next and Daugherty and Nance bringing up the rear; all of the bigs except Laimbeer are capable 2nd scoring options, none were really dominant lead options and Lucas is also both efficient, as were Daugherty and Nance, and spreads the floor like none of the other bigs.

However, defensively, Lucas and Daugherty fall behind the other bigs. Larry Nance was the best help defender and shotblocker, he is the greatest non-center shotblocker to ever play though a bit thin to do a good job holding position on the big bodies in the post. Daniels and Laimbeer are the physical man defenders (ie thugs) who set the defensive tone for their teams.

The best combination of both offense and defense is also the leader in accolades with 2 MVPS and 3 titles, albeit in the ABA. He brings a consistent 18-24ppg and 15-18reb with excellent defense and good leadership skills over his 5 year peak (though the numbers must be discounted 15-20% for differences between the leagues accoring to APBL data analysis).

I will vote for MEL DANIELS

With Dumars gone, there are a couple of guys that stand out. None of the guards quite comes up to that level with Chris Mullin being the most impressive, at least offensively. Nor do any of the centers leap forward; Amare being my favorite over the always injured Yao Ming or 50s star Neil Johnston but again, purely an offensive player.

The forwards are stronger -- Shawn Marion had a great two way game with a monster 2006 season. Yes, he benefitted from playing with Steve Nash, as players like Worthy and McHale benefitted from playing with Magic and Bird but he has several other 20+PER seasons without Nash making up for lower efficiency (though still the best efficiency among Phoenix starters) with extra pts/reb. Elton Brand and Terry Cummings are also in the running with offensive seasons at Marion's level though not quite up to his level defensively but they fall just a little behind. The dark horse is Cliff Hagan who didn't have regular seasons to match the others but was one of the greatest playoff studs in NBA history (Frank Ramsey was another from that era that did the same).

NOMINATE Shawn Marion

My bad penbeast0, I do admit I have gotten a bit lazy recently.

Vote: Nance

For Nance, I mentioned him a while ago, and I changed my mind on him back then, but I think this is the right time for him. During the regular season, he was a solid 20ish ppg scorer with good defense. Very efficient too. I'm not much of a fan of how he didn't really seem to be able to step up his scoring in the playoffs, but it's not like he disappeared either. He still maintained his efficiency, he still maintained decent scoring.

Nominate: Pressey

I'm mainly nominating him because of bastillon's great posts about him in previous threads and other topics, and I found it very convincing. Basically, he was a defensive superstar, with monster impact. There's evidence that he was more important to the Bucks' defense than Moncrief. And he was an excellent all-around player too...pretty efficient double-digit scorer, very good rebounder, very good playmaker. Combine all that with his excellent defense and evidence of big impact, I actually think he's been slept on at this point.

Guards

Hardaway vs Williams - Hardaway is the better passer, but Williams' scoring game appears more reliable as shown by him going off in the playoffs more consistently while passing at a reasonable level. Too scared of Hardaway's playoff inconsistency to take him over Williams

Williams vs Dumars - I like Williams offense more due to the value of penetrating and collapsing the defense as one of the fastest guards out there. Dumars of course is high end defender. I trust taking the offensively proficient player from my guard and then filling out the defensive spots with the forwards and center if I'm building a team.

Forwards

Nance vs Lucas - I don't see Lucas having a great impact on the game due to his obviously terrible defense and he seems like the kind of rebounder I don't like - leaving his man to go get balls. I consider Nance a Marion type, and I like Marion more than Lucas.

Nance vs Melo - Once again I prefer standout offense from my primary players as it allows you to do eg. what the Knicks are this year, loading the roster up with defensive specialists while still having help offensively. I consider Melo neutral on defense. His efficiency is OK but he gets a lot of scores at the rim and FT line which coorelates with good offenses to me

Centers

Mel Daniels vs Laimbeer - Daniels is a good defensive player with a meh offensive game. I consider Laimbeer worse defensively but gives you a unique look offensively with his spacing. I take Laimbeer here for the reason that he has twice as much longevity

Laimbeer vs Brad Daugherty - Once again I can't consider Daugherty a superior player by enough of a margin to make up for the lesser longevity. Daugherty is skilled but the sluggish defender at center that a lot of us have concerns about.

Williams vs Melo vs Laimbeer

Williams and Melo are close to being offensive anchors, Laimbeer is a high end option at the most important position at C. I will hold off on my vote until seeing which of the 3 is in the conversation to get in cause this runoff voting is hurting atm

VOTE: Mel Daniels.

As an overall player I don't think he's distinctly better than many guys left - BUT (and this is a big BUT), he maximised the situations he was put in, racking up ABA Championships and MVPs giving him a distinct advantage on his career CV than anyone else left.

Nominate: Dave DeBusschere.

He's in the HoF and the NBA Top 50 and if nothing else it would be criminal for him not to even make our top 100. That said, a case can be made in pure basketball terms - won Championships, was a great defender, hugely versatile, and whilst not the most efficient of scorers he was not a liability either. His era's Bobby Jones. The two should not be this far apart.

Vote: Larry Nance

Again, not by a ton, but I'm more sold on him than the other candidates. I guess I'll spend a little time on each:

I'm not anti-Lucas at this point, but I'm also not really having pro-Lucas arguments pop up in my head, and the criticisms resonate.

Daugherty...is now the 3rd most tenured nominee and I STILL have not heard one argument for why he should even be in this discussion. My apologies if someone made one and I just missed it. To me an offensive big man who had a grand total of 2 seasons with 20 PER before falling off the map at age 28 simply doesn't belong here.

Daniels I'm giving a lot of thought, and have been since I championed Hawkins. I suppose I'm hung up on the fact that he only really stood out in the early ABA, and his "standing out" didn't stand out as much as guys like Spencer Haywood, Dan Issel or George McGinnis. 3 guys who are on my mind as potential nominees.

Laimbeer & Gus Williams. Not really guys who were on my radar.

Melo. As y'all know, I'm not the biggest fan.

Timmy. One of my heroes growing up, but I doubt I'd rank him ahead of the other Run TMC members.

Dumars of course just got nominated, but he actually is someone I could consider voting for. Sticking with Nance for the moment.

Nominate: Dave DeBusschere

It's hard for me to place DeBuss, but I do have a lot of respect for his game, and he's getting traction now.

Others on my mind:

Haywood, Issel, and McGinnis as mentioned above. I'll note that McGinnis' negative intangibles could easily keep me from putting him in the top 100, but he deserves discussion at least. Easily a Top 100 talent.

Mullin & Richmond

Cliff Hagan I could see putting in at this point.

Parker, Amare, Marion, and Durant. Modern guys who warrant some discussion.

Seems like we've lost a clear path on point guards: People should think about Wilkens, Lever, and Mo Cheeks.

Sorry out of town now and only have iPhone to comment on.

Vote: Daugherty
Nominate: Richmond

Vote: Gus Williams

Nominate: Amar'e Stoudemire


For me, it comes down to Williams beating out Timbug and Melo. He really proved himself as being a dynamic, efficient offensive anchor in the playoffs for a decent amount of years.

I just want to point out Hardaway's amazing series against Magic Johnson in 1991. He averaged about 27 points, 13 assists and 4 steals per game on almost 50 percent shooting with just 2 turnovers per game. That's sick. L.A. was a good defensive team that year as well.

I'm nominating Amar'e because I think he's an underrated offensive player as far as what he does for other players. His off-ball movement, pick-n-roll footwork/timing, ability to dive from the perimeter, and hit the outside jumper allow him to work in just about any offense. He's like a stronger version of Durant with less range and handles and more power and explosion and interior touch. He's a good high-post passer, too.

He's not a good defender, but I don't think he automatically disqualifies a team from being good defensively. Maybe we'll see that this year- man, what a horrible time to be writing that after last night's game.

Since Gus Williams was underrated when he played, it's not surprising that he wouldn't get much attention here. He was the engine of Seattle's fast break, he was clutch, and he was Seattle's leading scorer when they won the title, which is important for many people.

When Williams sat out, Seattle's fast break went with it:

“ ‘Losing Gus cut off our running right off the bat,’ says John Johnson, one of two starters who remain from the championship team. ‘Gus was an unusual player in that he was blessed with speed and quickness. He wasn’t a great defensive player, but he could jump around and apply so much pressure on you that you wouldn’t dare put the ball within two feet of him because he would take it away.’ ”

“Gus is so complete. He has that quickness and anticipation, takes the ball to the basket or passes with productive security. Worse for the opposition, when they get back fast enough to keep the Sonics from taking it inside on the break, Gus just picks it up and jump-shoots with that amazing suddenness and accuracy.”


“Williams, because of equal skills as either a playmaker or shooter, is really two people. Gus can have the kind of game (25 points, several steals, two or three key rebounds) that jumps out at you from a box score. Or he can hammer his victims with intangibles so subtle that most fans will miss his magic completely.”


“There are some who believe that Williams, at 28, is the best guard in professional basketball.” - Feb 5, 1982

I point out the date because Williams made First Team All-NBA that season.

I've always found it interesting that when people talk about the greatest fast break players, it of course starts with Magic, and people say Erving, Drexler, Worthy, Malone, Barkley, Marion, Pippen, Jordan, LeBron, Kidd, Nash, but no one ever mentions Gus Williams.

Don Nelson: “Gus is one of the best open-court players in the league. He’s head and shoulders above any other guard in an open court game.” - Apr 8, 1980

This was Magic's rookie season.

Kevin McHale: “I’ve never seen such quickness in my life as Gus Williams in the open court.” - Oct 16, 1981

Jack Ramsey: “He’s the best open-court player in the league. No one else in his class even comes to mind. You take him out of there and it puts pressure on the other people on Seattle. Without him, there are no easy baskets. But with him, the way he can take the ball to the basket or pull up for the jumper, your defense isn’t able to sag to the middle. He is simply the best.” - Jan 18, 1982

Magic is now in his third season, and, of course, Dr. J is in the league.

“Williams, who is the best open-court player in the league.” - Nov 27, 1982

Said in the season preview for the 1982-83 season.

“Williams is the league’s best open-court player” - Oct 28, 1984

Talking about Dr. J:

“When I get a rebound, I tend to look to him [Erving] right away, because in my mind, he, Gus [Williams] and Magic are the best open-court players there are” - Feb 14, 1983

Erving, Gus Williams and Magic are the best open-court players there are. Those were the three, yet everyone talks about Magic and Erving when talking about players who were great in transition, but no one ever mentions Williams. That needs to stop. His contemporaries knew he was in that class, but, unfortunately, the people who came after don't know it, and his name gets lost to history.

In 2003, one writer listed his 12-man all-playoff team of the last 25 years:

GUARDS: Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Reggie Miller, Dennis Johnson and Gus Williams.

We're going to flop the pattern here, in part because Dennis Johnson and Williams might be the most underappreciated clutch backcourt in NBA history. Williams was a superb performer, incredible in the final minutes of a game. He had Bird's confidence and was so cool he seemed to be whistling while he worked over defenders. Gus was the soul of the potent Seattle teams of the late 1970s and early '80s. At 6-2, he averaged a shade over 20 points a game in the regular season, a shade over 23 in the postseason.

Since Gus Williams just got a vote, I thought I'd put some stuff out there that I happen to have. I know Dr Mufasa's posted about him a couple times, but since I only saw stats, I thought I'd put some contemporary opinion out there.

Will go with Williams over Laimbeer & Melo in the interest of run-off voting

Vote Gus Williams

Nominate Lou Hudson

Hudson is an outstanding fit in almost any lineup due to the value of shooters and spacing/ability to play off others, he could play on the ball some too. A+ character.

Quick comment -- Bobby Jones has two signature things going for him other than the normal talk of intangibles.

First, defense where he was not only a very good man defender at both the 3 and the 4, but a 2/2 bl/st guy in his prime which is very rare (Jones, Erving, Hakeem, DRobinson, Marion, and Gerald Wallace in an injury shortened 06 season are it for NBA history).

Second, efficiency in which he was top 10 in the league 6 times in a 12 year career and is 12 All-time in true shooting percentage in NBA history despite being more a midrange jump shooter than the post beasts and 3 point specialists that are ahead of him on the list.

DeBusschere was a terrific intangible and man defense guy too, though not clearly better than a Paul Silas or Buck Williams, but he was not a great shotblocker or ball hawk nor was he even average in efficiency. There is a similar player in our sights but it isn't DeBusschere, it's Larry Nance who also combined great shotblocking with great efficiency and some incredible highlight dunks (remember than Bobby Jones was nicknamed Kangaroo Kid when at NCU following in the footsteps of fellow leaper Billy Cunningham). The only issue I have with either Jones or Nance isn't their scoring, it's their rather mediocre rebounding.

DeBusschere
Best season: 1967 18/14/2 on .442fg%/.483ts%/15.0PER. 1 All-NBA selection (2nd), 6 All-Def 1sts, 2 rings

Buck Williams 1988 18/12/2 on .560fg%/.603ts%/18.0PER. 1All-NBA selection (2nd), 2 All-Def 1sts, 2 All-Def 2nd, 6 times in MVP voting (v. 2 for DeBusschere, 1 for Silas), no rings

Paul Silas
Best season: 1972 18/12/4 on .470fg%/.556 ts%/15.5PER (only season over 14ppg), 2 All-Def 1sts/3 All-Def 2nd, 2 All-Star, 3 rings

DeBusschere does have slightly the best defensive rep and was better out on the floor than Williams or Silas who were more F/C types but it's not a huge advantage and his inefficiency is truly a handicap, especially v. Buck Williams.

Compare to Terry Cummings who I think of as the best PF left
Best season: 1985 (more the star in Milwaukee than Pressey though I liked Pressey) 24ppg/9reb/3ast on .495fg%/.536ts%/22.3PER with 1All-NBA 2nd, 1All-NBA 3rd, 2 All-Star and his defensive ratings for teams he starred on were consistently good in both Milwaukee and later in San Antonio which was most of his career. Although he never got the accolades, his numbers through 9 seasons (up to his first major knee surgery) were better than those of James Worthy and arguably better than those of Dominique Wilkins, the two other stars drafted in the top 3 of the 82 draft and he beat them both for ROY.

I can see valuing DeBusschere over Silas who was similar in numbers (better passer than DeBusschere though), but not over Buck Williams or Terry Cummings. That's why I was hoping ElGee would show us some strong differences in IN/OUT or something to justify it, otherwise I go with the guys who could shoot efficiency and who played the rest of the game in a similar fashion.

I apologize for being so AWOL. Life has just completely taken away my ability to consistently participate. But a couple of things:

1) I gave the project some press, such as it is. I write a weekly article for a fantasy sports site, and at the bottom of each article this year I'm going to go more in-depth on the top players that we voted in. This week I started it off writing about Dirk, and in the comments of the article I've had a pretty fun discussion with someone who followed the link to the project and wanted to talk about Russell.

2) I'm still going to vote and nominate.

Vote: Mel Daniels
Nominate: Ron Harper

Here's an explanation I wrote on Harper several threads ago:

As someone that was following those late 80s/early 90s Cavs pretty religiously, I will say that my feeling at the time was that Harper was the best player on that team. He, Daugherty and Price all came in as rookies the same year, and Harper was definitely the dominant rookie and the one that finished highest in the ROY race. Nance joined the team a few years later, but Harper was still more of a co-leader along with Daugherty and Price with Nance as support. Jordan was on the rise in Chicago, and whenever those Cavs played the Bulls the feeling was always that their only hope was for Harper to raise his game to handle Jordan. The year that Harper got traded to the Clippers, the team fell off a cliff (-17 games in 1990) then they fell off another cliff the first full season he was gone (-9 more games in 1991). This wasn't all Harper, as Daugherty (1990) and Price (1991) also missed a lot of time, but it shouldn't be ignored that in the last full year of Harper the Cavs won 57 games, then in the next 2 years when he was traded in-season and then the following year they won only 33 games for year two. The Cavs did return to the elite in the years following with Price developing into more the focal point of the squad, but we shouldn't forget that in the team's younger phase it was Harper who was just as important if not more-so.

Anyway, it just feels funny for Price, Daugherty and Nance to all be either in or on the list and Harper to not even have gotten a mention yet.

Then, Harper went to the Clippers and, despite serious knee injuries, played a big part in turning around a Clipper's team that averaged 17 wins in the 3 seasons before Harper arrived and improved to 43 wins/year in Harper's first two healthy seasons, including the first two Clippers playoff appearances since before the NBA/ABA merger. At this point Harper was still one of the offensive focal points of the team, second in both scoring and assists on the squad.

Yes, after Harper went to the Clippers he tore up his knees and had to modify his game moving forward. But to his credit, he re-made his game into a Robert Horry/Derek Fisher level glue piece on 5 championship teams after leaving LA.

In summary, Harper was the leading wing scorer/assist guy and co-team leader on two different teams that improved from terrible to playoff level in his youth. Then, as a vet after knee issues he reshaped his game into a key starter/role player on two different championship teams.

At this stage of the rankings, he's at least worth talking about.

You rank him over Mitch Richmond and Earl Monroe at SG then? Monroe is another guy who modified his game to win titles and was more impressive with the Knicks than Harper was with the Bulls.

VOTE

Mel Daniels – penbeast0, lukekarts, drza

Larry Nance – therealbig3, Doctor MJ

Gus Williams – Dr Mufasa, ronnymac2


NOMINATE

Shawn Marion – penbeast0

Paul Pressey – therealbig3

Dave DeBusschere – lukekarts, Doctor MJ

Lou Hudson – Dr Mufasa

Amare Stoudamire – ronnymac2

Ron Harper -- drza

penbeast0 wrote:You rank him over Mitch Richmond and Earl Monroe at SG then? Monroe is another guy who modified his game to win titles and was more impressive with the Knicks than Harper was with the Bulls.

Richmond was essentially a peer of Harper's, and yeah, I never really saw much to differentiate them at their peaks. Richmond scored at a very slightly higher volume and more of a perimeter threat, but Harper was the better slasher and the much better defender. As for The Pearl, it's hard to compare across time with a player I didn't see nearly as much of. But from a B-R perspective, Pearl at his best was putting up similar counting stats to Harper at his best, but doing so at presumably a higher pace. Harper peaked with similar or better advanced stats (PER/Win Shares) than either Richmond or Pearl.

Or maybe, put another way, I don't see anything in the numbers that would suggest that Mitch or Monroe are clearly ahead of Harper. So just like I put a case forth for Harper, I'd have no problem with seeing a similar case made for either of them. But until such a case is made, I'm comfortable in my Harper nomination.