James Harden is a superstar

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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1401 » by Doctor MJ » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:59 am

oaklandwarriors wrote:Hopefully they review all his rubbish contact moves and either make it a no call or an offensive foul. Kevin Martin (another top Houston scorer) relied on his rubbish no skill rip move and thankfully it got taken away. Let's see Harden without him flailing for contact every freaking trip he drives. He doesn't play basketball, he plays for the refs approval and it's sickening.


The only adept scorers in the league who don't work the refs are those scared of going to the free throw line. For everyone else, such "integrity" should be stamped out with a slap to the face by their coach.

You play the ball as it lies. You do what you can to help your team. All else is vanity.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1402 » by Fobbie » Sun Mar 10, 2013 8:35 am

oaklandwarriors wrote:Hopefully they review all his rubbish contact moves and either make it a no call or an offensive foul. Kevin Martin (another top Houston scorer) relied on his rubbish no skill rip move and thankfully it got taken away. Let's see Harden without him flailing for contact every freaking trip he drives. He doesn't play basketball, he plays for the refs approval and it's sickening.


You sound like a bitter Warriors fan. Maybe if Curry/Klay would drives more to the hoop and not settle for jump shot when Houston was in the penalty at the 8th minute, you guy might have won the game. I bet you wouldn't be saying this if Harden was on your team.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1403 » by DreDay » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:07 am

Fobbie wrote:
oaklandwarriors wrote:Hopefully they review all his rubbish contact moves and either make it a no call or an offensive foul. Kevin Martin (another top Houston scorer) relied on his rubbish no skill rip move and thankfully it got taken away. Let's see Harden without him flailing for contact every freaking trip he drives. He doesn't play basketball, he plays for the refs approval and it's sickening.


You sound like a bitter Warriors fan. Maybe if Curry/Klay would drives more to the hoop and not settle for jump shot when Houston was in the penalty at the 8th minute, you guy might have won the game. I bet you wouldn't be saying this if Harden was on your team.


I wouldn't say it, but does that mean it isn't true? I've never seen a "superstar" rely so much on flopping and jumping into defenders. Do you honestly believe all of his FTs are legitimate? It's a massive hole in the rulebook that needs to be fixed. If offense initiates contact, offensive foul or no call. It would clean up the game. Do you find his FT drawing ability entertaining? I sure as hell don't. It's a blight on basketball.

And please no one bring up "good at drawing fouls". This shouldn't even exist. Calls should be made equally to all players. If it's a foul it's a foul. Not these superstar calls. Normally, if you're good at drawing fouls it means you play like a wuss entertaining for the refs rather than the fans. I think that sums up Harden.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1404 » by Fobbie » Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:29 am

So what you're trying to say is that if you are good at something you shouldn't do it? So Lebron should start bombing long range 2s and 3s and stop driving? Korver should stop shooting and start doing crossover? Like it or not, part of his game is getting to the line, do whatever it takes to help his team win. Give me a break, Harden isn't the only one that draw tick tac foul, Durant and Lebron gets the same benefits as well. BTW is not calling playing like a wuss, is call playing with your brain. The 2 easiest/highest percentage shot in NBA is near the basket(layups/dunks) and free throw.

I would say that about 75% of Harden's foul are legitimate, but at the same time ref miss calls all the time. The guy is just playing to his strength, I doubt they will change anything. Even if they do, it won't surprise me to see Harden in the top 5 in ft attempt again because all he does it drives to the basket.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1405 » by CCM721 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:30 pm

oaklandwarriors wrote:
Fobbie wrote:
oaklandwarriors wrote:Hopefully they review all his rubbish contact moves and either make it a no call or an offensive foul. Kevin Martin (another top Houston scorer) relied on his rubbish no skill rip move and thankfully it got taken away. Let's see Harden without him flailing for contact every freaking trip he drives. He doesn't play basketball, he plays for the refs approval and it's sickening.


You sound like a bitter Warriors fan. Maybe if Curry/Klay would drives more to the hoop and not settle for jump shot when Houston was in the penalty at the 8th minute, you guy might have won the game. I bet you wouldn't be saying this if Harden was on your team.


I wouldn't say it, but does that mean it isn't true? I've never seen a "superstar" rely so much on flopping and jumping into defenders. Do you honestly believe all of his FTs are legitimate? It's a massive hole in the rulebook that needs to be fixed. If offense initiates contact, offensive foul or no call. It would clean up the game. Do you find his FT drawing ability entertaining? I sure as hell don't. It's a blight on basketball.

And please no one bring up "good at drawing fouls". This shouldn't even exist. Calls should be made equally to all players. If it's a foul it's a foul. Not these superstar calls. Normally, if you're good at drawing fouls it means you play like a wuss entertaining for the refs rather than the fans. I think that sums up Harden.


A ton of his foul calls come from him putting the ball out there and daring the defender to try and take it. More often than not they end up slapping his arms and a foul being called. The only way a rule could be made to stop this is by making slapping someones arms legal or putting the ball out there in front of you illegal. I don't see either one of those things happening.

And yes as a Rocket's fan I find it very entertaining watching his play style beat the Warrior's consistently.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1406 » by Colbinii » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:46 pm

oaklandwarriors wrote:
I wouldn't say it, but does that mean it isn't true? I've never seen a "superstar" rely so much on flopping and jumping into defenders. Do you honestly believe all of his FTs are legitimate? It's a massive hole in the rulebook that needs to be fixed. If offense initiates contact, offensive foul or no call. It would clean up the game. Do you find his FT drawing ability entertaining? I sure as hell don't. It's a blight on basketball.

And please no one bring up "good at drawing fouls". This shouldn't even exist. Calls should be made equally to all players. If it's a foul it's a foul. Not these superstar calls. Normally, if you're good at drawing fouls it means you play like a wuss entertaining for the refs rather than the fans. I think that sums up Harden.

Are you describing Kevin Durant here? It seems like you are.
And yes, players are good at drawing fouls ala KD, Lebron, Harden, etc. Sure, some superstar calls are involved, but even if they weren't superstars, the way they play draws more fouls than a jump shooter ala curry, thompson.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1407 » by JordansBulls » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:01 pm

NYKMELO7 wrote:james harden is a top five player in the nba in my opinion. call me crazy but he might be the best in creating contact and getting to the ine. another beast game tonight. 38-5-8

james harden would be the guy i want to build my team around. id rather have him for the next ten years over anyone in the league (except for durant)

Woah there. I like Harden but this is going a bit too far here don't you think?
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1408 » by E-Balla » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:15 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
oaklandwarriors wrote:Hopefully they review all his rubbish contact moves and either make it a no call or an offensive foul. Kevin Martin (another top Houston scorer) relied on his rubbish no skill rip move and thankfully it got taken away. Let's see Harden without him flailing for contact every freaking trip he drives. He doesn't play basketball, he plays for the refs approval and it's sickening.


The only adept scorers in the league who don't work the refs are those scared of going to the free throw line. For everyone else, such "integrity" should be stamped out with a slap to the face by their coach.

You play the ball as it lies. You do what you can to help your team. All else is vanity.

Ross, Melo, Curry, Westbrook, and Duncan don't flop around or play for calls and they're very capable/confident at the line. Flopping or taking advantage of horrible rules (KD's rip move) isn't universally done and personally I respect the players that don't do it more. Shouldn't matter in a comparison of how good they are in an NBA game though.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1409 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:39 am

oaklandwarriors wrote:And please no one bring up "good at drawing fouls". This shouldn't even exist. Calls should be made equally to all players. If it's a foul it's a foul. Not these superstar calls. Normally, if you're good at drawing fouls it means you play like a wuss entertaining for the refs rather than the fans. I think that sums up Harden.


This is simply not a statement grounded in realism. Do you honestly think that if you played LeBron one-on-one you'd be equally likely to foul each other? The root of players fouling is that they are afraid of getting burned. A player good at drawing fouls is good at making his defender feel like he's going to get burned. That is most definitely a skill.

I understand you feel like these fouls are NOT fouls, but Harden is not being singled out by conspiracy here. He's working the same strikezone as everyone else, and so are his defenders. The defenders know what gets called for fouls. They know what not to do. Their coaches may defend them in public, but in private they are saying "You' leave yourself wide open when you do X, don't let him trick you into making that move." They do it anyway against Harden. It's not a coincidence, it's a skill.

You want to improve the ref'ing, that's awesome. I'm not going to defend it except to say: Ref'ing is very, very hard. My sympathies to the crews, but it's still the players job to help his team. Whatever can be done to help the refs I'm for it, but stuff like this will always be a part of the game. No coach worth a damn would refuse it as a part of his strategy, so it's hard for me to see it as practical for anyone else to do so.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1410 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:44 am

GC Pantalones wrote:Ross, Melo, Curry, Westbrook, and Duncan don't flop around or play for calls and they're very capable/confident at the line. Flopping or taking advantage of horrible rules (KD's rip move) isn't universally done and personally I respect the players that don't do it more. Shouldn't matter in a comparison of how good they are in an NBA game though.


Funny you mention Westbrook. OKC has been absolutely masterful at drawing fouls for several years now, which is of course where Harden was when he was honing his skill. To the extent Harden does it more than Westbrook, that's Harden actually taking advantage of what the staff encouraged him to do while Westbrook doesn't. I seriously doubt Westbrook does this out of principle. He's largely just a less heady player than Harden.

Of the other players you mention, only Curry and Duncan really approach Harden's level of savvy. Curry basically just doesn't drive - which makes sense if you're as frail as he is. Duncan is a big and a player who tends to be very erratic in his free throw shooting - so it's simply not so beneficial for him to focus so much on getting to the line.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1411 » by vincecarter4pres » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:27 am

I'll say this much, I haven't seen Harden play nearly as much as I would have liked this year, but in most every game of his I've seen this season, when he draws contact and the refs don't blow the whistle he does some of the least complaining and looks of frustration I've seen from a star player. He mainly just brushes it off and keeps it moving without letting it deter him. I respect that.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1412 » by E-Balla » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:44 am

Doctor MJ wrote:
GC Pantalones wrote:Ross, Melo, Curry, Westbrook, and Duncan don't flop around or play for calls and they're very capable/confident at the line. Flopping or taking advantage of horrible rules (KD's rip move) isn't universally done and personally I respect the players that don't do it more. Shouldn't matter in a comparison of how good they are in an NBA game though.


Funny you mention Westbrook. OKC has been absolutely masterful at drawing fouls for several years now, which is of course where Harden was when he was honing his skill. To the extent Harden does it more than Westbrook, that's Harden actually taking advantage of what the staff encouraged him to do while Westbrook doesn't. I seriously doubt Westbrook does this out of principle. He's largely just a less heady player than Harden.

Of the other players you mention, only Curry and Duncan really approach Harden's level of savvy. Curry basically just doesn't drive - which makes sense if you're as frail as he is. Duncan is a big and a player who tends to be very erratic in his free throw shooting - so it's simply not so beneficial for him to focus so much on getting to the line.

Duncan still shoots above average for a bigman though. I also meant to put Rose (typo - said Ross instead). People were complaining that he needed to flop more to actually get his deserved calls. And with OKC it's possibly a strategy to embellish contact for calls (most of their players do it. I actually saw Thabo starfish for a call recently) and like I said it's a good strategy. It just gets no respect in the opinion of many fans including myself. When I see a player shoot 6-16 with no threes and still score 23 :wink: I think to myself how many calls would he have gotten if they were calling them tougher.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1413 » by Doctor MJ » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:10 am

GC Pantalones wrote:Duncan still shoots above average for a bigman though. I also meant to put Rose (typo - said Ross instead). People were complaining that he needed to flop more to actually get his deserved calls. And with OKC it's possibly a strategy to embellish contact for calls (most of their players do it. I actually saw Thabo starfish for a call recently) and like I said it's a good strategy. It just gets no respect in the opinion of many fans including myself. When I see a player shoot 6-16 with no threes and still score 23 :wink: I think to myself how many calls would he have gotten if they were calling them tougher.


Being better at others at your position does not factor in to how you should decide to chase free throws. Bigs in general shouldn't do it because they suck at shooting. Duncan shoots better than most bigs, but still wouldn't be in the NBA if shooting were his primary skill.

I'm aware of the criticism of Rose along these lines and I agree with it. And no, a 19-year-old with ridiculous athleticism who isn't drawing fouls isn't doing it on principle, he's failing to get free throws because he isn't good at it...which is kind of significant issue.

In the end I understand your aesthetical stand, it just seems impractical to me.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1414 » by Krodis » Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:27 am

You know, I know some people in this topic have suggested that Harden is explicitly aware of his efficiency, and tailor's his games to chase the TS% stat (rather than taking good shots because they're good shots). But if he were playing for the stat, there would be certain shots he would foist off on others or not take at all, like quick shots for 2 for 1s and end of quarter shots. But those are shots he takes (especially the 2 for one, he almost always goes for a 2 for 1), so I'm inclined he's taking efficient shots because it's good basketball, regardless of whether he's aware of his TS% or not.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1415 » by vincecarter4pres » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:45 am

I haven't really read through much of this thread lately, but wait, there are people suggesting he stat pads his TS%?! :rofl2:

Oh man, stop it! :lol:
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1416 » by AussieBuck » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:09 am

vincecarter4pres wrote:I haven't really read through much of this thread lately, but wait, there are people suggesting he stat pads his TS%?! :rofl2:

Oh man, stop it! :lol:

You know he is though. Lebron's currently padding his win stats which is even worse.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1417 » by mopper8 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:33 am

I could've sworn that padding your TS% is roughly coextensive with playing smart basketball.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1418 » by Krodis » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:08 am

I mean, there ARE ways to pad your TS% that aren't good basketball: Passing it aimlessly towards the end of the shot clock, not going for two for ones, and not taking end of quarter shots. But given that Harden isn't really guilty of those, anything else is just good basketball.
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1419 » by Colbinii » Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:28 am

So being an efficient scorer is now considered statpadding? Oh man :lol:
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Re: James Harden is a superstar 

Post#1420 » by The Infamous1 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:04 pm

There's a big difference between taking smart shots and going out of your way to specifically protect your FG or 3PT percentage.

Plus not all players are defended the same way(even stars)
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