RealGM

Thanks to B-R, I did some digging on the 2001-2004 seasons and did a plus minus analysis on Kobe and Shaq to find their real impact.

Regular season On court plus/minus per 48 minutes:
Shaq: +8.50
Kobe: +5.66
Shaq/Kobe on court: +9.63
Shaq, no Kobe: +4.76
Kobe, no Shaq: -2.67
No shaq or kobe: -6.59

plus/minus:
Shaq: +12.44
Kobe: +5.77

Here is where it gets interesting, playoff numbers from 01-04:

Shaq: +7.08
Kobe: +5.20
Shaq/Kobe on court: +8.06
Shaq, no Kobe: -3.34
Kobe, no Shaq: -12.51
no shaq or kobe: -9.10

Playoff plus/minus:
Shaq: +19.15
Kobe: +9.72

So it's clear that Shaq and Kobe on the court together were a +10 team (1997 Bulls level) and when they were not on the court the team collapsed. This showed the Lakers were Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of scrubs. What's interesting is that this data should finally put the rest of all the Kobe being 1A since 01 crap. Shaq was the clear man. His playoff impact numbers are on another level. If you project that to per 100 possessions, we are talking about a +21-22 player in the playoffs. That is unheard of. Especially doing it for 4 seasons in a row. Just goes to show how dominant Shaq was in his prime.

where do you get the on the breakdown of shaq/kobe vs shaq/no kobe vs kobe/no shaq vs neither on the court for basketball reference. And do they have the same data for Jordan/Pippen during the bulls 2nd 3peat?

INKtastic wrote:where do you get the on the breakdown of shaq/kobe vs shaq/no kobe vs kobe/no shaq vs neither on the court for basketball reference. And do they have the same data for Jordan/Pippen during the bulls 2nd 3peat?

B-R has the data. I got the data and manually did the work. Only took about 20 minutes. Interesting stuff.

colts18 wrote:Thanks to B-R, I did some digging on the 2001-2004 seasons and did a plus minus analysis on Kobe and Shaq to find their real impact.

Regular season On court plus/minus per 48 minutes:
Shaq: +8.50
Kobe: +5.66
Shaq/Kobe on court: +9.63
Shaq, no Kobe: +4.76
Kobe, no Shaq: -2.67
No shaq or kobe: -6.59

plus/minus:
Shaq: +12.44
Kobe: +5.77

Here is where it gets interesting, playoff numbers from 01-04:

Shaq: +7.08
Kobe: +5.20
Shaq/Kobe on court: +8.06
Shaq, no Kobe: -3.34
Kobe, no Shaq: -12.51
no shaq or kobe: -9.10

Playoff plus/minus:
Shaq: +19.15
Kobe: +9.72

So it's clear that Shaq and Kobe on the court together were a +10 team (1997 Bulls level) and when they were not on the court the team collapsed. This showed the Lakers were Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of scrubs. What's interesting is that this data should finally put the rest of all the Kobe being 1A since 01 crap. Shaq was the clear man. His playoff impact numbers are on another level. If you project that to per 100 possessions, we are talking about a +21-22 player in the playoffs. That is unheard of. Especially doing it for 4 seasons in a row. Just goes to show how dominant Shaq was in his prime.

Shaq was a beast no doubt about it. I think the complemented each other perfectly. Everyone played off Shaq and he made things easier for the whole team. I think Kobe was the wild card in the 4th quarter when teams collapsed and wanted to force someone other than Shaq to beat them.....

Not quite. Maybe 2nd greatest duo.

colts18 wrote:Thanks to B-R, I did some digging on the 2001-2004 seasons and did a plus minus analysis on Kobe and Shaq to find their real impact.

Regular season On court plus/minus per 48 minutes:
Shaq: +8.50
Kobe: +5.66
Shaq/Kobe on court: +9.63
Shaq, no Kobe: +4.76
Kobe, no Shaq: -2.67
No shaq or kobe: -6.59

plus/minus:
Shaq: +12.44
Kobe: +5.77

Here is where it gets interesting, playoff numbers from 01-04:

Shaq: +7.08
Kobe: +5.20
Shaq/Kobe on court: +8.06
Shaq, no Kobe: -3.34
Kobe, no Shaq: -12.51
no shaq or kobe: -9.10

Playoff plus/minus:
Shaq: +19.15
Kobe: +9.72

So it's clear that Shaq and Kobe on the court together were a +10 team (1997 Bulls level) and when they were not on the court the team collapsed. This showed the Lakers were Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of scrubs. What's interesting is that this data should finally put the rest of all the Kobe being 1A since 01 crap. Shaq was the clear man. His playoff impact numbers are on another level. If you project that to per 100 possessions, we are talking about a +21-22 player in the playoffs. That is unheard of. Especially doing it for 4 seasons in a row. Just goes to show how dominant Shaq was in his prime.

Great work!!

If possible, could you post the numbers for 01-03 playoffs? Kobe had a real stinker that post season. Not too sure if it skews the numbers too much.

carlquincy wrote:

colts18 wrote:Thanks to B-R, I did some digging on the 2001-2004 seasons and did a plus minus analysis on Kobe and Shaq to find their real impact.

Regular season On court plus/minus per 48 minutes:
Shaq: +8.50
Kobe: +5.66
Shaq/Kobe on court: +9.63
Shaq, no Kobe: +4.76
Kobe, no Shaq: -2.67
No shaq or kobe: -6.59

plus/minus:
Shaq: +12.44
Kobe: +5.77

Here is where it gets interesting, playoff numbers from 01-04:

Shaq: +7.08
Kobe: +5.20
Shaq/Kobe on court: +8.06
Shaq, no Kobe: -3.34
Kobe, no Shaq: -12.51
no shaq or kobe: -9.10

Playoff plus/minus:
Shaq: +19.15
Kobe: +9.72

So it's clear that Shaq and Kobe on the court together were a +10 team (1997 Bulls level) and when they were not on the court the team collapsed. This showed the Lakers were Shaq, Kobe, and a bunch of scrubs. What's interesting is that this data should finally put the rest of all the Kobe being 1A since 01 crap. Shaq was the clear man. His playoff impact numbers are on another level. If you project that to per 100 possessions, we are talking about a +21-22 player in the playoffs. That is unheard of. Especially doing it for 4 seasons in a row. Just goes to show how dominant Shaq was in his prime.

Great work!!

If possible, could you post the numbers for 01-03 playoffs? Kobe had a real stinker that post season. Not too sure if it skews the numbers too much.

I don't believe it skews it too much. But in 2001, Kobe actually had the better plus/minus numbers than Shaq, though both dominated to the tune of something like +13 for Shaq and +14 for Kobe.

Shaq's replacement was Mark Madsen. duh, great impact.

bastillon wrote:Shaq's replacement was Mark Madsen. duh, great impact.

Aren't you the same guy who cites KG's +/- numbers that includes Brian Scalabrine, James Posey (out of position) on Boston, Older Mark Madsen, Justin Reed, etc. I don't even focus on the out of court numbers. I'm more focused on the +7 per 48 minutes with Shaq on the court. That is elite impact.There's no doubt that Shaq is a top 5 playoff player ever, and top 3 finals player (Behind MJ, competing with Magic and Russell).

colts18 wrote:

bastillon wrote:Shaq's replacement was Mark Madsen. duh, great impact.

Aren't you the same guy who cites KG's +/- numbers that includes Brian Scalabrine, James Posey (out of position) on Boston, Older Mark Madsen, Justin Reed, etc. I don't even focus on the out of court numbers. I'm more focused on the +7 per 48 minutes with Shaq on the court. That is elite impact.There's no doubt that Shaq is a top 5 playoff player ever, and top 3 finals player (Behind MJ, competing with Magic and Russell).

those numbers from KG are adjusted for strength of teammates. raw +/- is not. as for +7... that was with another top5 player in the league on his team.

Shaq, no Kobe: -3.34

not as impressive huh ? take away Kobe and you'll still get a better supporting cast than Hakeem had for vast majority of his prime.

bastillon wrote:

colts18 wrote:

bastillon wrote:Shaq's replacement was Mark Madsen. duh, great impact.

Aren't you the same guy who cites KG's +/- numbers that includes Brian Scalabrine, James Posey (out of position) on Boston, Older Mark Madsen, Justin Reed, etc. I don't even focus on the out of court numbers. I'm more focused on the +7 per 48 minutes with Shaq on the court. That is elite impact.There's no doubt that Shaq is a top 5 playoff player ever, and top 3 finals player (Behind MJ, competing with Magic and Russell).

those numbers from KG are adjusted for strength of teammates. raw +/- is not. as for +7... that was with another top5 player in the league on his team.

Shaq, no Kobe: -3.34

not as impressive huh ? take away Kobe and you'll still get a better supporting cast than Hakeem had for vast majority of his prime.

Kobe, no Shaq: -12.51
no shaq or kobe: -9.10

Shows you that the supporting cast was crap without Shaq (you could look at their record w/o Shaq from 98-03 to tell you that).

No chance at all that the Fisher, Fox, Horry, Medvedenko, George, Hunter, Shaw, Cook compare to the Non-Hakeem cast. We are talking about a 10-15 win team that Kobe and Shaq propped up to ridiculous heights.

What were the numbers for Jordan/Pippen? Kareem/Oscar? Stockton/Malone? Bird/McHale? Magic/Kareem? Erving/Malone? LeBron/Wade?

Ever is a long time.

I'm so glad that B-R has made these extra years available. 82games had back to the '04 postseason, so I knew Shaq was like +28 that postseason while Kobe was more like +7 or something like that, and I figured that this was likely the pattern during the championship years too. Nice to finally be able to confirm that.

And yeah, Shaq's impact was visually obvious so it's nice to see that the numbers back it up. Playoff +/- has to be taken with a grain of salt due to sample size, but I will say that the results over larger blocks of games seem to support the eye test for the performances that most agree were dominating. Shaq 01 - 03, Duncan '03, Wade '06, Dirk '11...all up at least in the upper teens on/off if not higher. Passes the initial sniff, at the least.

bastillon wrote:Shaq's replacement was Mark Madsen. duh, great impact.

For someone who puts as much emphasis on numbers and analysis, the manner in which you subjectively apply them is absolutely baffling to me.

If those numbers were measuring Olajuwon or KG, you'd be having them cast in bronze. Otherwise, the impact of one of the most indisputably dominant and impactful players in history is reduced to the inadequacy of his backup.

Lame.

That said, I wouldn't go so far as to call L.A.'s supporting cast crap. You could do a lot worse than Horry, Fox and Fisher.

on paper yeah id say yes, two top 10 players of all time together, no disrespect to jordan and pippen who are a top 10 player and a top 30 player of all time together,

A top 5......
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXx5JLZpxvI[/youtube]

^Hell no.

Kareem/Magic
Jordan/Pippen
Shaq/Kobe
Shaq/Wade
LeBron/Wade
Dr. J/Moses
Kobe/Gasol
Kareem/Oscar

And a crapload more that I'm not thinking of right now...all of them are easily better than Billups/Hamilton.

therealbig3 wrote:^Hell no.

Kareem/Magic
Jordan/Pippen
Shaq/Kobe
Shaq/Wade
LeBron/Wade
Dr. J/Moses
Kobe/Gasol
Kareem/Oscar

And a crapload more that I'm not thinking of right now...all of them are easily better than Billups/Hamilton.

Out of your list ......how many of those duos have been to 6 straight conference finals? (excluding the first 3)
BTW, I made that video.

easiestplayfts wrote:

therealbig3 wrote:^Hell no.

Kareem/Magic
Jordan/Pippen
Shaq/Kobe
Shaq/Wade
LeBron/Wade
Dr. J/Moses
Kobe/Gasol
Kareem/Oscar

And a crapload more that I'm not thinking of right now...all of them are easily better than Billups/Hamilton.

Out of your list ......how many of those duos have been to 6 straight conference finals? (excluding the first 3)
BTW, I made that video.

You replace Rip/Billups with any of those duos and your looking at multiple championships