Bill Simmons now ranks Dirk the 2nd greatest PF ever.

[ThaRegul8r]

BEcause KG and Duncan's value isn't nearly as hinged to being big scorers as Malone's is.

If you're a big scorer, and your efficiency drops in the postseason, then it's a big deal.

[BmanInBigD]

If people are hung on the playoffs, don't forget that

- Dirk has choked hard in the past

So at 4:23 you're talking about the "easily fooled masses" and a half hour later you throw out this gem. I smell a pot and a kettle somewhere up in here. Not playing up to your standards is one thing, choking is something else.

[ahonui06]

If people are hung on the playoffs, don't forget that KG has been the best player on a title team

Don't forget that DIRK was the best player on a title team without any all-stars unlike KG who had 2 other all-stars on his team in 2008. The Truth & Ray Allen helped out tremendously during that title run.

Dirk has choked hard in the past

DIRK has played below his standards in two series. 2006 Heat (terrible officiating) and 2007 Warriors. Ironic that you use this argument when KG failed to make the playoffs three years in a row during his prime. DIRK has lead the Mavs to 11 consecutive seasons of 50 wins or more and enabled them to make the playoffs every year during his prme.

Dirk is expected to be better offensively, while KG doesn't have to be on his level if the defense/rebounding makes up the gap. If KG is going off offensively as much as Dirk he's having the clearly higher impact.

KG has never been up to DIRK's level in the playoffs offensively. KG doesn't even have a 40 point game in the playoffs, while DIRK has had numerous games. This argument is moot because KG has never showcased the type of offensive abilities that DIRK has throughout their postseason careers.

So while I think Dirk is the more trustworthy playoff performer, it's not like a comparison of David Robinson vs Michael Jordan in terms of their playoff nutsacks. It's been pretty close throughout their careers. As elite as 2011 Dirk was don't underestimate 08 KG in that he was the key physically and mentally to their all time great defense which is why they won the title, while being a big threat offensively, going off for 24pts+ 9 out of 24 games including a great close out performance while setting screens and spacing the floor and passing and etc. That might have been less of a "he had his moment" run than Dirk's 2011 but it wasn't that much less.

I will repeat again that DIRK had no other all-stars on his 2011 team. KG was playing with Paul Pierce and Ray Allen, who both made the all-star team that season. DIRK's run is much more impressive because he needed to carry the scoring load throughout the entire playoffs and couldn't rely upon other HOF bound teammates.

Additionally, KG scored 24+ points 9 times out of 24 games. DIRK scored 24+ points 16 times out of 24 games. DIRK is just a much better offensive player than KG. It's evident in their postseason numbers. KG's numbers remain the same during the regular season and playoffs, while DIRK's offensive numbers increase during playoff time.

[HeartBreakKid]

Wait, so Dirk, who with the exception of last year played for his whole career with at best average centers and still had the Mavs as one of the Top-10 defenses 5 of the last 7 years is not making it work?

I didn't say that at all, and you're really just putting words in my mouth. Not sure what that has to do with me saying Karl Malone was a good defender.

And to think of Dirk as someone who can't run fastbreaks is rediculous. He can even lead the break, but just rarely does, because he is better as a trailor that steps into the three.

I value Karl Malone and Charles Barkley on the fast break a lot more.

There is really one thing that annoys me, and its people not even trying to make an educated point in evaluating players. Its fine to say Malone could do this and Barkley could do, but its another thing to combine that with false statements about Dirk.

It's also annoying to insult me and reply with an obnoxious amount of meaningless stats and rhetorical questions. I didn't say anything "false" about Dirk, and all of my statements were relative to all time power forwards. Forgive me if that is spreading "false" facts (what fact did I even spread? It was merely my opinion).

[ElGee]

WTF? What's with the attitude?

It's not attitude, it's called "sarcasm." I realize it's difficult to ascertain tone from the written word alone, due to the lack of vocal inflection and other such cues, but I thought the eye-rolling smiley should have given it away.

Try looking at game 3 vs. Los Angeles for your answer.

I'm aware of Game 3. I could hardly have posted the statistics without being aware of it, seeing how I had to do the math for the true shooting percentage. Was that not due to his own performance? Was he injured?

To use an example on the opposite end of the spectrum, Reggie Miller had a stinker in Game 1 of the 2000 NBA Finals against the Los Angeles Lakers, going 1-16 (6.3%), which was worse than Malone's Game 3. However, he averaged 24.3 points on 58.8% TS including that game. And when I look at what he did in the postseason prior to that game, putting up true shooting percentages of 56.3%, 67.2%, and 57.6% in the prior series, then, yeah, I can give him some slack that he simply had a bad game. Not due to being an apologist, but because his performance dictates it. It was clearly an aberration when you look at how he performed in the postseason that year. No excuses are necessary.

But when a guy (who's supposed to be an "offensive juggernaut") puts up true shooting percentages of 49.5%, 49.4%, and 48.5% in consecutive playoff series, then at what point can one say, "Okay, he just didn't play well?" That's what I'd like to know. It seems a double standard exists, as there are people who are quick to attempt to absolve a player by placing the blame on his teammates saying they let him down, yet I notice these same people are never willing to do the converse when a player lets his teammates down due to his own subpar performance. So what does it take for someone to simply admit that a player didn't play well? I'm genuinely curious.

Well, I thought the eye roll *was* the attitude. Maybe I'm not understanding what it means to roll one's eyes. You also inferred I was an apologist, which isn't exactly an endearing term.

I've been over this in detail so I'll keep it brief. In a playoff series, outlying games need to be accounted for - it's silly to use averages when we have extreme inconsistencies, especially when it's better to have 4 great games and 3 horrible games than 7 slightly above average games. This goes for judging Miller's series, Malone's, LeBron's vs Bos in 08 or anyone else. Ask Laker fans who are old enough: Malone gave the Lakers fits in that series, save for the one game in which he was just, literally, more off than in any other game in his career. THEN the injury to his hand changed his baseline shooting percentage because it is affected his shot.

This is completely reflected in the stats...(and, IMO, if you watch those games.) I mean, the Jazz were 7-1 to start the postseason, with the only loss in the 2-20 game. In the other 7 games, Malone averaged 31.4 points 12.4 rebounds on 54.3% TS. (23.7/10.9/49% in the final 2 rounds...against harder defense to boot.)

[JordansBulls]

If Moses Malone was listed as a PF where would he fit in here?

[mjthedon11]

I have Dirk behind Duncan (even though I usually consider him when I rank centers as opposed to power forwards), Malone, Barkley, and Garnett. The KG one I could easily be argued off of either way. If somebody wanted to say Kevin McHale was better, I can kinda see their argument but it's not one I'd personally make.

But Bill Simmons isn't the guy I'd go to for a rank like this. He knows a lot of basketball history and he's obsessive about it, but he's so biased towards and against certain players taht I usually can't take his ranks seriously.

[mjthedon11]

If Moses Malone was listed as a PF where would he fit in here?

We'd be arguing him against Tim Duncan for the best PF ever.

[AshyLarry]

i dono, is moses was a PF, i think hed be 2nd. now way hes touching duncan, no one is.

[JordansBulls]

But Bill Simmons isn't the guy I'd go to for a rank like this. He knows a lot of basketball history and he's obsessive about it, but he's so biased towards and against certain players taht I usually can't take his ranks seriously.

You have any examples of this?

[Jase]

But Bill Simmons isn't the guy I'd go to for a rank like this. He knows a lot of basketball history and he's obsessive about it, but he's so biased towards and against certain players taht I usually can't take his ranks seriously.

You have any examples of this?

Yeah. Read his book. Seriously. See how he views Bill Walton and Cowens as opposed to Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant. He's entertaining and educated in basketball history, but objectivity isn't the name of his game.

[colts18]

But Bill Simmons isn't the guy I'd go to for a rank like this. He knows a lot of basketball history and he's obsessive about it, but he's so biased towards and against certain players taht I usually can't take his ranks seriously.

You have any examples of this?

Yeah. Read his book. Seriously. See how he views Bill Walton and Cowens as opposed to Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant. He's entertaining and educated in basketball history, but objectivity isn't the name of his game.

How about him having John Havlicek at #13

[JordansBulls]

But Bill Simmons isn't the guy I'd go to for a rank like this. He knows a lot of basketball history and he's obsessive about it, but he's so biased towards and against certain players taht I usually can't take his ranks seriously.

You have any examples of this?

Yeah. Read his book. Seriously. See how he views Bill Walton and Cowens as opposed to Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant. He's entertaining and educated in basketball history, but objectivity isn't the name of his game.

Here was his list

Bill Simmons top 50 players in NBA History
01. Michael Jordan
02. Bill Russell
03. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
04. Magic Johnson
05. Larry Bird
06. Wilt Chamberlain
07. Tim Duncan
08. Jerry West
09. Oscar Robertson
10. Hakeem Olajuwon
11. Shaq
12. Moses
13. Havlicek
14. Baylor
15. Kobe
16. Dr J
17. Pettit
18. Karl Malone
19. Barkley
20. LeBron
21. Cousy
22. Garnett
23. Isiah
24. Pippen
25. Stockton
26. Barry
27. The Admiral
28. Walton
29. Iverson
30. Reed
31. Cowens
32. Frazier
33. Sam Jones
34. Gervin
35. McHale
36. Mikan
37. Dirk
38. Nash
39. Ewing
40. Payton
41. Unseld
42. Kidd
43. Drexler
44. Thurmond
45. DeBusschere
46. Greer
47. Cunningham
48. Worthy
49. Hayes
50. Dolph Schayes


Only guy out of place is probably Cousy.

[ahonui06]

Simmons' list is a few years old now so I'm sure a few of the current players leapfrogged a few spots, especially DIRK after his epic 2011 postseason.

[The Infamous1]

Dirk is locked in as the number 2 PF all time

[JordansBulls]

Dirk is locked in as the number 2 PF all time

Going from 37th to at least 18th???

[thebottomline]

That must be an older list because last time I checked Simmons had Kobe at 8 and Wade near the top 20.

[The Infamous1]

Dirk is locked in as the number 2 PF all time

Going from 37th to at least 18th???

Not on that list, on my List.

I have dirk In my top 12 all time.

[JordansBulls]

That must be an older list because last time I checked Simmons had Kobe at 8 and Wade near the top 20.

That was the list in his book, not sure where his new list is.

[MrBigShot]

McHale
Barkely
Malone
Garnett
Duncan (yes he's a PF)


so which one of these guys is Dirk better than ? I'll wait all day.

I will take KG, Duncan, Malone and Barkley over Dirk all day. I'm not so sure about Mchale though.