Bill Russell vs. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[InsideTheMind12]

I've been on the fence about this comparison/debate for a while now. Who do you guys have ranked higher in your all-time list? I'm leaning towards Russell but I've always had Kareem above him though. Hopefully someone can make me pick.

[InsideTheMind12]

Nobody has an opinion on this?

[The Infamous1]

Kareem pretty easily, the offensive gap is too large.

[Doctor MJ]

Russell. Some thoughts:

I was shocked to learn how good Boston's defense was, and how bad their offense was. Often the worst offense in the league, but the defense was an order of magnitude better than what what other defenses or offenses were capable of relative to league norms, and that's why they won every year. When I realized this, I started really considering Russell as my GOAT. The argument of "Yeah, but Russell was lucky he had those offensive stars on his team" dies when you look at what the offense was actually doing. Yes Cousy, or Heinsohn, or Hondo might have some big scoring games, but when an offense is that bad, nothing is really being accomplished on that side of the ball. There's only so bad an offense can get, so these guys weren't keeping the offense from getting far worse, they were just a symptom of a weak offense.

-When I started reading about Russell's defensive strengths, and watching players with great motor and instincts like Bill Walton, I started re-thinking my ideas about great big man defense. There's a tendency to think that more size is better, and when you see the shotblocking numbers of Mark Eaton that seems to be supported. Really though what you want is not someone who can block as many shots as possible so much as alter as many shots as possible while not leaving swaths of the court ripe for the plucking. Russell called this his "Horizontal Game", others talk about it as his ability to dash out and challenge perimeter shots, while still being quick enough to come back to the interior by the time the rebound is to be had.

When you consider this, and then look at someone like Hakeem Olajuwon, you start to realize that anyone saying Russell would be "small" for a center today has it backwards. Russell's build is the ideal for maximum defensive impact. There may be times you'd like to have someone with a stronger build along with your Russell, but that's matchup man defense. If someone wants to say, "Well if he's not the strongest, then he's not the center", fine, knock yourself out. The star defender remains the guy with the global court impact whatever his nominal position is.

On Russell's offense, I think what people need to realize is that the reason so few teams have big men volume scorers nowadays is that they NEVER should have had so many big man scorers in the past. Basically, in the shot clock era, the first guy worthy of such focus was Kareem, and yes, I know what I said there.

So Russell could have certainly developed his scoring to look better if that had been his team's focus, like so many other team's did their big men, but the proper lens to look at him is not as an unusual superstar big who couldn't score, but as the unusual superstar big who was used properly.

Heading over to Kareem, he's a scoring prodigy. His scoring touch is completely off the charts for a big man. Asking "Who's 2nd?" is almost an insult to him as it implies he's of a particular mold, when in fact he's singular. His length and coordination gave him easy shots where other bigs have to take hard shots...and when he had to take hard shots, he made them more often that I'd have thought possible.

I find though, that while he covers all the rest of the basis for what a great big is expected to do, there's a passivity to it that really makes for a major gap between him and some other greats. You watch him against Walton, and Walton just seems like a hyper-aware, hyper-aggressive frantic beast compared to Kareem. Kareem's scoring ability may be enough to give him the edge in that battle, but Walton really has the edge in every other facets of the game from passing to rebounding to man defense to help defense to intangible inspiration.

In the end, this makes me less high on Kareem's peak play than I am on the guys I'd consider GOAT peak. The very best are guys who seem to impact the game in more ways that you'd have ever predicted in part because there is an energy to how they play that makes them "pop" out from everyone else when you watch them.

[penbeast0]

Russell pretty easily, the defensive gap is larger than the offensive one and then you add in Russell's rebounding edge and his great success as a 1st option while Kareem had little success for one so talented until he added another top 5 player of all time in Magic.

[ronnymac2]

I like both, and I think at their respective peaks, they are equal. They're strengths are simply concentrated differently. I'd personally prefer Kareem, however.

[Blackfyre]

Kareem. Better peak, longevity, one of the best two way players ever, miles better offensively...to me it's no brainer. Russell is better defender (GOAT or second best) and better leader but that's it. Offensively there is enormous gap between the two and anyone who tries to claim that Russell's defensive game is enough to eliminate it is reaching it. From what I've seen I've always imagined Russell as better Ben Wallace (add in his much better passing game, enormous intangibles and improved defense and rebounding).

[doctorfunk]

Kareem. Better peak, longevity, one of the best two way players ever, miles better offensively...to me it's no brainer[...]Offensively there is enormous gap between the two.

[penbeast0]

Kareem. Better peak, longevity, one of the best two way players ever, miles better offensively...to me it's no brainer. Russell is better defender (GOAT or second best) and better leader but that's it. Offensively there is enormous gap between the two and anyone who tries to claim that Russell's defensive game is enough to eliminate it is reaching it. From what I've seen I've always imagined Russell as better Ben Wallace (add in his much better passing game, enormous intangibles and improved defense and rebounding).

Look at Kareem's team offense relative to league average (even when playing with one of the GOAT PGs in Oscar) v. Russell's team defense relative to league average and you will find that the Celtics defensive variation from the norm accounted for more points and a greater percentage advantage consistently to the point where Kareem's peak offensive impact is equal or less than Russell's average defensive impact assuming (which is a huge and often wrongheaded assumption) that their influence on those relative sides of the ball accounts for the whole of the team impact. Still, it's the best way we have to measure the relative value of the offensive impact v. the defensive impact.

And as for Russell being the better defender and better leader, you forget one of the main areas where Russell dominated the league -- he was a GOAT level rebounder while Kareem varied from very good early on to well below average late in his career.

[Blackfyre]

Can Russel replicate his defensive dominance in any other era ? I don't think so. That's no knock on him because it's still amazing what he did and I think there are only few who could have come close in the same situation. Meanwhile I'm positive that you can insert KAJ to any era and he would be just as dominant player as he was. That's the main reason I pick him. I feel like he can translate his dominance to different eras more smoothly than Russell can.

[JordansBulls]

Can Russel replicate his defensive dominance in any other era ? I don't think so. That's no knock on him because it's still amazing what he did and I think there are only few who could have come close in the same situation. Meanwhile I'm positive that you can insert KAJ to any era and he would be just as dominant player as he was. That's the main reason I pick him. I feel like he can translate his dominance to different eras more smoothly than Russell can.

I think that makes sense if the question is who would you start a franchise with.

[G35]

Can Russel replicate his defensive dominance in any other era ? I don't think so. That's no knock on him because it's still amazing what he did and I think there are only few who could have come close in the same situation. Meanwhile I'm positive that you can insert KAJ to any era and he would be just as dominant player as he was. That's the main reason I pick him. I feel like he can translate his dominance to different eras more smoothly than Russell can.

I think that makes sense if the question is who would you start a franchise with.

Well what is the question? Peak? Career? Better player? Who would you start a franchise with? It looks he's just asking who would you pick which leaves a lot of gray area.....

[ThaRegul8r]

Can Russel replicate his defensive dominance in any other era ? I don't think so. That's no knock on him because it's still amazing what he did and I think there are only few who could have come close in the same situation. Meanwhile I'm positive that you can insert KAJ to any era and he would be just as dominant player as he was. That's the main reason I pick him. I feel like he can translate his dominance to different eras more smoothly than Russell can.

I think that makes sense if the question is who would you start a franchise with.

Well what is the question? Peak? Career? Better player? Who would you start a franchise with? It looks he's just asking who would you pick which leaves a lot of gray area.....

It's a straight-forward question: "Who do you guys have ranked higher in your all-time list?" Six people replied answering the question without any problem. I've never understood why people make things harder than they have to be.

[ahonui06]

Bill Russell

11 rings as the man, best defensive player ever.

[Blackfyre]

It's a straight-forward question: "Who do you guys have ranked higher in your all-time list?" Six people replied answering the question without any problem. I've never understood why people make things harder than they have to be.

What's there not to understand ? I take everything into consideration when I make All-Time rankinks. I've got KAJ ranked higher than Russell for the exact same reasons I gave.

[ThaRegul8r]

It's a straight-forward question: "Who do you guys have ranked higher in your all-time list?" Six people replied answering the question without any problem. I've never understood why people make things harder than they have to be.

What's there not to understand ? I take everything into consideration when I make All-Time rankinks. I've got KAJ ranked higher than Russell for the exact same reasons I gave.

Cripes, I was responding to G35, not you.



People need to actually read and comprehend what's being said before being so quick to post.

[Dr Positivity]

I have Bill Russell higher. I'm actually on the verge of moving Kareem to 6th behind Duncan, Magic and Bird rounding out the top 5. The reason is I'm not sure about Kareem's leadership or mental approach to the game. To me it would actually make a lot of sense to have him in the same group as Hakeem and Shaq. The reason I have Hakeem and Shaq behind Duncan, Magic, Bird is the intangible factor the latter group has. The way their teammates and the unit came together was effected by them. To me Kareem, Hakeem and Shaq are AS GOOD as any player in history, meaning if this was just a matter of skillsets, they might be top 3 on my list. But they just couldn't pull their teams together at certain points in their career. For example the Lakers struggles pre Magic was in part due to not being a TEAM like they were later. Some players like Dantley led into that, but at the same time Kareem was definitely a moody guy who didn't connect with his teammates as much as others, and needed Magic to have that role, IMO

Hakeem's skillset in particular is so perfect that I wonder why Kareem should get the "Perfect player, so it doesn't matter if he couldn't connect with his teammates as well" and not him. Shaq has tangible flaws in his game, but I'm leaning towards Hakeem from a skillset, perfect player perspective should be right there with Kareem, he just had defense to Kareem's offense. Leaning towards my top 8 going Jordan, Russell, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq. I feel like saying Kareem/Hakeem (the "Eems") are either 1/2 in history or 6/7. Tangibly from a team building perspective I feel like they bring the most to the table as players. So if that's all that matters they'd beat everyone. But... I believe in intangibles

[Johnlac1]

Russell. Some thoughts:

I was shocked to learn how good Boston's defense was, and how bad their offense was. Often the worst offense in the league, but the defense was an order of magnitude better than what what other defenses or offenses were capable of relative to league norms, and that's why they won every year. When I realized this, I started really considering Russell as my GOAT. The argument of "Yeah, but Russell was lucky he had those offensive stars on his team" dies when you look at what the offense was actually doing. Yes Cousy, or Heinsohn, or Hondo might have some big scoring games, but when an offense is that bad, nothing is really being accomplished on that side of the ball. There's only so bad an offense can get, so these guys weren't keeping the offense from getting far worse, they were just a symptom of a weak offense.

-When I started reading about Russell's defensive strengths, and watching players with great motor and instincts like Bill Walton, I started re-thinking my ideas about great big man defense. There's a tendency to think that more size is better, and when you see the shotblocking numbers of Mark Eaton that seems to be supported. Really though what you want is not someone who can block as many shots as possible so much as alter as many shots as possible while not leaving swaths of the court ripe for the plucking. Russell called this his "Horizontal Game", others talk about it as his ability to dash out and challenge perimeter shots, while still being quick enough to come back to the interior by the time the rebound is to be had.

When you consider this, and then look at someone like Hakeem Olajuwon, you start to realize that anyone saying Russell would be "small" for a center today has it backwards. Russell's build is the ideal for maximum defensive impact. There may be times you'd like to have someone with a stronger build along with your Russell, but that's matchup man defense. If someone wants to say, "Well if he's not the strongest, then he's not the center", fine, knock yourself out. The star defender remains the guy with the global court impact whatever his nominal position is.

On Russell's offense, I think what people need to realize is that the reason so few teams have big men volume scorers nowadays is that they NEVER should have had so many big man scorers in the past. Basically, in the shot clock era, the first guy worthy of such focus was Kareem, and yes, I know what I said there.

So Russell could have certainly developed his scoring to look better if that had been his team's focus, like so many other team's did their big men, but the proper lens to look at him is not as an unusual superstar big who couldn't score, but as the unusual superstar big who was used properly.

Heading over to Kareem, he's a scoring prodigy. His scoring touch is completely off the charts for a big man. Asking "Who's 2nd?" is almost an insult to him as it implies he's of a particular mold, when in fact he's singular. His length and coordination gave him easy shots where other bigs have to take hard shots...and when he had to take hard shots, he made them more often that I'd have thought possible.

I find though, that while he covers all the rest of the basis for what a great big is expected to do, there's a passivity to it that really makes for a major gap between him and some other greats. You watch him against Walton, and Walton just seems like a hyper-aware, hyper-aggressive frantic beast compared to Kareem. Kareem's scoring ability may be enough to give him the edge in that battle, but Walton really has the edge in every other facets of the game from passing to rebounding to man defense to help defense to intangible inspiration.

In the end, this makes me less high on Kareem's peak play than I am on the guys I'd consider GOAT peak. The very best are guys who seem to impact the game in more ways that you'd have ever predicted in part because there is an energy to how they play that makes them "pop" out from everyone else when you watch them.

You brought out a lot of good points...excellent post. Having seen both of them quite a bit in their prime, I'd probably choose Abdul-Jabbar. But it's not as big a margin as a lot of people think. Believe me, Russell would be a formidable player today. But he'd have to be on the right team. His Celtics were built around him, and through the late fifties and sixties, they had the best system of any team. Havlicek and Sam Jones were the other two main players, but Russell, of course, was the key. In that system, Russell was the perfect player. He didn't need the ball to be effective, but he could score. He averaged over 20 against Wilt (my all-time greatest player) in the playoffs. Because he had to. And while the Celtics had poor shooting percentages from the field, they still scored a lot points because they ended up with more shot attempts than other teams. They were relentless on both offense and defense.
Walton and Russell were very similar players apart from the fact that Walton's career was tragically short due to injuries. A better offensive player than Russell but not quite as good on defense. Walton was also a player who, unlike -A-Jabbar, played like a maniac the whole game. I can't see a team with a healthy Walton having a bad stretch like A-Jabbar had before Magic joined the Lakers. The common myth was you had to have a great center to win championships, but A-Jabbar didn't win championships without Oscar or Magic. But he was a great player, no denying that.

[ThaRegul8r]

I have Bill Russell higher. I'm actually on the verge of moving Kareem to 6th behind Duncan, Magic and Bird rounding out the top 5. The reason is I'm not sure about Kareem's leadership or mental approach to the game.

Most people never or rarely take this into consideration. It's usually all about "stats" or "skills," and isn't a holistic comparison taking everything into consideration. This isn't the place, but many people have commented on this. When you're talking about the greatest of the greats, they're ALL great. But it's the mental attributes that should be the distinguishing factor, as it's pointless to talk about accolades since they all have accolades—you don't get to that level without having any.

After much deliberation, I think I'm comfortable in saying that I would rank Magic above Kareem all-time. Pat Riley often said Kareem was the GOAT while he coached him, but after Kareem retired and he no longer had to assuage his ego, and after going to New York, where he was no longer coaching Magic either—and could be honest no longer having to worry about politics, he said Magic was better.

[kooldude]

It's Russell. He won a lot more titles with a greater impact in the game. Pretty simple for me.

Kareem is a better player and would be more impactful than Russell in any era past 1980 or whenever modern basketball stop chucking and played within a real system.