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Where do you think Magic Johnson in his last full season in the league would rank if he were playing in the current nba?


19.4 ppg, 7rpg, 12.5apg, 1.3spg, .623ts%, .477 fg%, 25.1 per

Barely first. He led Worthy and role players to the Finals.

best in the league
probably a good MVP fight between him Lebron but I would go Magic
pure point getting 12 nearly 13 assist
wouldn't be the defender Lebron is but by no means a bad defender
able to create his own shot and amazing from the line

Best in the league a healthy worthy =champs

2nd to Lebron but fairly close.

I'd say second to Lebron because LBJ is considerably better on D and starting to really use the post more frequently. But I wouldn't call it a massive gap.

Doe to the defensive game lebron has i'd put him just over magic as well.

I generally agree with tsherkin, but I'd say he falls on the opposite side of the small gap. Main reason--Magic makes his teammates better than Lebron makes his. Look at the 1991 Lakers roster outside of Magic:

James Worthy--couldn't create his own shot reliably and probably should be sending Magic 50% of his NBPA pension every year just to thank him for making him look better than Marvin Williams (can you tell I think Worthy is the single most overrated HoF player ever??? )

AC Green--not an offensive threat to say the least

Byron Scott--great shooter with his feet set, but not a player to create his own offense

Sleepy Sam perkins--not a horrible player in the low post, but not great either and liked to live a lot more in the mid range (and later at the three point line, but not at this point in his career).

Vlade Divac--sort of the inside version of Perkins. He liked the low post, but he wasn't a volume scorer and didn't have the passing touch he had during his time in Sacramento.

Terry Teagle--not a bad wing player at all, but nothing to really write home about and certainly nothing like having DWade on the wing.

Mychal Thompson--a looooooong way away from his 20/12 days in Portland.

That's it--those are all of the teammates that played more than 700 minutes that season with Magic. And this was a team that won 58 games and upset Portland when Portland was actually considered the favorite to win the championship. And this was a team that was 5th in the league in both offensive and defensive efficiency, a more remarkable fact since it is difficult to point to any one of those players outside of AC Green who was even a solid defender over most of their careers. If you put Lebron on this team, the team plays a bit better defense but offensively it turns into quagmire. That talent around Johnson was, by the standards of 1991 in the pre-second round expansion world, a bunch of role players and an incredibly overrated all-star. This is less relative talent IMO than what the Heat had this year by a lot, particularly if we're judging based on how the game is played today instead of the motion offenses you saw the Lakers play and play against.

If the game is one on one, I definitely pick Lebron and it isn't very close. But basketball is a team game and both of these players are supposed to be the key players facilitating the offense. Magic was far better there, and his impact was greater on offense than Lebron's superiority on defense.

mojomarc wrote:I generally agree with tsherkin, but I'd say he falls on the opposite side of the small gap. Main reason--Magic makes his teammates better than Lebron makes his. Look at the 1991 Lakers roster outside of Magic:

My gut instinct says I should rank Magic higher because of that reason, but Magic is my favorite player ever, so I was trying to look for personal bias. Lebron definitely scores more effectively than Magic and is a superior defender, so you have to look at least a bit at the trade-off between playmaking ability versus scoring and defensive impact, right?

Magic was AMAZING, and we saw well enough how much he could impact a team even in 30 mpg from the PF as an old, fat guy. In his hey-day, he'd have dominated this league hard-core, but it's a little difficult to set aside the huge, huge defensive gap and the difference in styles of play. Magic was a point guard; Lebron is a wing player. It's hard to compare impacts directly. Remember that Lebron took that 07 squad to the Finals without a ton of offensive help around him either, yes? And he made the ECFs once as well as the semis three times. Given what he had on those squads on offense (because they were mainly built as defensive teams), that's pretty impressive.

So even looking at the 91 Lakers, I don't think that's it quite fair to say "Magic had a greater impact on his teammates," since Lebron was floating that offense in a big way. Lebron had an oRAPM of +7.1 that year, which is kind of insane. The Cavs were +7.8 on offense when he was on the floor. That was a little under what Nash's impact was on Phoenix's offense that year, which is somewhat absurd.

So I don't know that it's totally fair or accurate to say that Magic did a much better job than that because of how the Lakers were able to succeed in 91. Similar, certainly; perhaps greater overall on that end of the court because he contributed more on offense than on D, but not so much farther ahead that it's a clear-cut argument (when you take into account Lebron's defense as well, I mean).

Damn, I hate arguing against Magic...

Best in the league. No one makes his teammates better as much as Magic.

mojomarc wrote:I generally agree with tsherkin, but I'd say he falls on the opposite side of the small gap. Main reason--Magic makes his teammates better than Lebron makes his. Look at the 1991 Lakers roster outside of Magic:

James Worthy--couldn't create his own shot reliably and probably should be sending Magic 50% of his NBPA pension every year just to thank him for making him look better than Marvin Williams (can you tell I think Worthy is the single most overrated HoF player ever??? )

I think what get's on my nerves the most is hyperbole. The exaggeration of players talents, abilities, or inabilities.

Worthy was a star before he ever came to LA. It's curious how people say Magic made all these other players. That they would barely be a mid level player but these PG's made them into HoF's. It's hilarious. I always wonder how these great play makers would do on a team of real scrubs.

The comment that Worthy couldn't create his own shot reliably is what interests me. How someone earns a reputation for coming up with big games in the playoff's can't create his own shot.

Let me ask this question, how was James suppose to create his own shot? Tell Magic to stop dribbling and let him post up? "Hey Magic, you dribbling too damn much! I need to create my own shot!"

Didn't Worthy have to share the ball with two other HoF's in a fast break system? Was he suppose to come in as a rookie and start waving off Pat Riley/s play calling and go one on one?

He couldn't reliably create his own shot....I don't see that. I mean it's relative; I don't think that Worthy was elite on offense. If Dominique is a 9 I think Worthy is an 8. Not being able to create their own offense is someone like Shawn Marion. But if we really wanted to test the waters and see if Magic can manufacture HoF's we should pair him with someone like Gerald Green, Luke Walton, or Chase Budinger.

That's who I think of when I say a player can't create his own shot.

What Magic had in 1991 was similar to what EVERYONE else was working with in the 80's. One other good player and a bunch of role players!! Oh you mean not everyone had 7'2 center with an unstoppable shot? Why don't you just go and get one, they are hanging around every park in America. Magic had loaded teams....so he won titles. This is the argument that people are making in the thread about if the Jazz underachieved. Having two great players and a bunch of role players wasn't gonna get it. You can't switch the argument when it's your favorite player in the unfortunate situation and they come up short.

Remember Magic never won without Kareem. As much as everyone wants to say Magic inspired KAJ and brought him into the fold, Kareem was a dominant force without Magic. I mean Magic did have Vlade and Perkins which is more than what a lot of other teams had......

Probably number two

Right after Lebron James.

I honestly think prime Lebron James is a slightly better player than prime Magic Johnson.

G35 wrote:The comment that Worthy couldn't create his own shot reliably is what interests me. How someone earns a reputation for coming up with big games in the playoff's can't create his own shot.

Yeah, Worthy was a good player on his own merits. He had a post game, a decent jumper and he could even face up a little. He wasn't like some mega-star of his own creation and he looked better because of Magic... and he looks worse than he was because when Magic left, James was injured and getting older and the team fell apart. That's kind of unfair to him. He was a solid second star player.

Magic had the talent necessary to compete, and through the 80s, the talent necessary to dominate. It takes a special player to key a dynasty, but that player absolutely cannot be on an island. You need to have significant talent around you in order to win multiple titles, and certainly to do as the Lakers did and make the Finals 9 times in 12 seasons. No matter who you are, you don't do that with scrubs and borderline talents. Worthy was a very good player. He wasn't some epic scoring machine, but he wasn't asked to be, since it was unnecessary. He wasn't someone who only finished on the break or off of a direct feed, either. He was a piece fit beautifully into a team concept built around Magic's playmaking, but he had tools other than his athleticism and good hands.

So even looking at the 91 Lakers, I don't think that's it quite fair to say "Magic had a greater impact on his teammates," since Lebron was floating that offense in a big way. Lebron had an oRAPM of +7.1 that year, which is kind of insane. The Cavs were +7.8 on offense when he was on the floor. That was a little under what Nash's impact was on Phoenix's offense that year, which is somewhat absurd.

To be fair to Magic, he wasn't playing with the "needy" teammates that LeBron was surrounded with in Cleveland, so it was a bit easier to "impact" that team. I'd take Perkins, a young Divac, and Worthy over anyone on that Cavs roster not named LeBron.

Between LeBron and Magic, it's close. I'd go with 2012 LeBron with the slight edge in offense and better defense.

MisterWestside wrote:To be fair to Magic, he wasn't playing with the "needy" teammates that LeBron was surrounded with in Cleveland, so it was a bit easier to "impact" that team. I'd take Perkins, a young Divac, and Worthy over anyone on that Cavs roster not named LeBron.

I think it was just a different team construction. One team was designed to defend, rebound and stick 3s, lacking in any kind of serious secondary scoring threat (apart from Mo Williams, later on). Magic's team all passed pretty well and a couple of them could get a bucket on their own every now and again when required.

Tough call, though, I'll grant that without hesitation.

One thing that might put Magic up there was his FT shooting. A very underrated aspect of his game.

He has been one of the best free-throw shooters in the history of the game, his ability to convert on the line was very valuable to his team. This is something Lebron is still struggling with, hes not a bad FT shooter by any means, but a very inconsistent one (not as inconsistent as Duncan though) and it hurts him.

But 2008-2012 Lebron (and onwards) is prime Lebron, and I think he`s been a slightly better player than the best version of Magic, and of course including 1991. Magic is also an underrated scorer, but he is not the scorer Lebron is, and although he`s the best passer of all time, Lebron James is a pretty awesome passer himself. In other words, the difference in scoring is bigger than the difference in passing. Factor in defense, and you conclude that Lebron James is simply the better player, and of course 2012 Lebron is better than 1991 Magic.

Look, Lebron is having a peak/prime of play comparable to the best of the best, including Shaq, Jordan and Magic, he is the only active player with a realistic option (very hard though) at being the GOAT. He is an unique and special player who was judged very unfairly because of the lack of team success, but this year that argument is done, and this will not be the last ring Lebron will win, I can assure you that.

D.Brasco wrote:Where do you think Magic Johnson in his last full season in the league would rank if he were playing in the current nba?


19.4 ppg, 7rpg, 12.5apg, 1.3spg, .623ts%, .477 fg%, 25.1 per

It's a toss-up between him and Lebron and I'd take him over anyone else in a heartbeat so #1 or #2.

People tend to forget what a beast that man was.

Ginobili wrote:But 2008-2012 Lebron (and onwards) is prime Lebron, and I think he`s been a slightly better player than the best version of Magic, and of course including 1991. Magic is also an underrated scorer, but he is not the scorer Lebron is, and although he`s the best passer of all time, Lebron James is a pretty awesome passer himself. In other words, the difference in scoring is bigger than the difference in passing. Factor in defense, and you conclude that Lebron James is simply the better player, and of course 2012 Lebron is better than 1991 Magic.

As a 23-year-old, Magic was a 3-time All-Star, a 2-time NBA champion and 2-time Finals MVP, and had averaged a triple-double over 48 games in the playoffs.

EGarrett wrote:

D.Brasco wrote:Where do you think Magic Johnson in his last full season in the league would rank if he were playing in the current nba?


19.4 ppg, 7rpg, 12.5apg, 1.3spg, .623ts%, .477 fg%, 25.1 per

It's a toss-up between him and Lebron and I'd take him over anyone else in a heartbeat so #1 or #2.

People tend to forget what a beast that man was.

This. Not to mention it was during a time when nearly every all time great was in there primes. Right now in the league only guys that are are Lebron, and maybe Durant, Dwight (missed entire playoffs)