RealGM 50 Highest Peaks Project Thread

[PTB Fan]

When do we continue?

I'd like to apologize for my inactivity due to school,.

[Doctor MJ]

To save me trawling through 20 pages of comments, can someone explain to me how/why the **** Elgin Baylor's peak is ranked so lowly on this site? I know his impact wasn't as great as the box scores indicated but can we employ some common **** sense please?? Below Karl Malone, Scottie Pippen and Penny Hardaway???? Is there some secret, unwritten vendetta against Elgin or something? His peak wasn't even 60/61, it was 61/62, or if you want to penalise him for his military service then 62/63 (A season that he had a good case for MVP). What did Oscar do that was so special in 62/63, his supposed peak by the people who voted? Huh? To have peak Oscar 15 spots ahead of peak Baylor is a disgrace. I'm angry.

You're...angry?

Okay, let's just start by understanding that your first thought is that we must have an emotional bias against one player who played half a century ago in order for our opinions not fit with yours. How plausible does that really seem to you?

"What did Oscar do...is a disgrace". You give that language and expect us to elaborate for you? Do you realize how unreasonable you look?

Look, while the opinions here have a lot of nuance, I'm just going to start you off with one detail, and I'm going to do that because it's something so basic that I'd assume you'd start of trying to rebut that if you were knowledgeable and felt we were oversimplifying things:

Oscar was a far more efficient scorer than Baylor. Frankly, so were West & Wilt & even Pettit, the other big scorers from the era. Baylor scored a lot, because he shot a ton, not because he achieving success at some outlier rate. That puts him a very different category than Oscar from the start before you even remember that Oscar was also the premier playmaker of his era.

Now, if you attempt to rebut this, do us a favor and cut the attitude. Right now, because you asked for help with disdain before showing any indication that you'd done even basic analysis on this stuff yourself, you're in a hole. If you come back saying efficiency doesn't matter, you reveal yourself to be just plain ignorant. If you come back saying you knew about the efficiency and simply chose to start the discussion by turning your nose rather than getting us started productively, then at the very least you're acting like a kid, and you make us likely to just think you actually did NOT know about the efficiency and you're a liar on top of that.

[Dipper 13]

Oscar was also the premier playmaker of his era.

I certainly agree, seeing as Big O was the smooth conductor always playing with a sense of discipline & patience. However Happy Hairston (who played with both) may not have. Though this quote & use of the word "quarterbacking" can also be interpreted as praising West's "leadership" or game control. Maybe Happy was just caught up in the moment.


NBA.com

Happy Hairston, after the 1972 Championship:

"I think (Jerry) West is the finest guard I've ever played with, especially as far as 'quarterbacking' a club is concerned. But I think when we've needed performances outside the so-called glamour areas, like blocking shots, intimidating players driving down the land and things like that, it was always Wilt who did it for us. My feeling is simply this: In the NBA, you can only go as far as your big man takes you. Everybody knows who our big man is. He took us all the way, and he did it by completely and totally sacrificing himself. How? Offensively. Once again he led the league in rebounds. People take a thing like that for granted. It's a phenomenal feat. I don't care what anyone says, Wilt isn't only our captain, he's the leader of our club in every sense of the word."

[ardee]

Anyone else have a list to post? Doctor MJ?

[NinjaSheppard]

Just out of curiosity assuming Durant keeps this level of play up and gives you something similar in the postseason (let's say his statistical/game impact differs from the regular season in the playoffs by about as much as it did last season) where would 2013 Durant's peak rank?

[ardee]

Just out of curiosity assuming Durant keeps this level of play up and gives you something similar in the postseason (let's say his statistical/game impact differs from the regular season in the playoffs by about as much as it did last season) where would 2013 Durant's peak rank?

I don't know, I would put him in the top 15 for sure. Ranks among Garnett/Walton/Oscar type of impact, maybe as good as LeBron even if he can actually score close to 30 ppg on 50/40/90... People don't understand this guy is scoring at Harden 2012 efficiency on over 10 ppg more volume.

[Gregoire]

1. MJ 91 - 9,5
2. Shaq 00 - 9,0
3. Wilt 67 - 9,0
4. Kareem 77 - 8,5
5. Hakeem 95 - 8,5
6. Bird 86 - 8,0
7. Lebron 09 - 8,0
8. Russell 64 - 8,0
9. Magic 87 - 8,0
10. Duncan 03 - 7,5
11. Walton 77 - 7,5
12. Kobe 09- 7,0
13 Garnett 04 - 7,0
14. Barkley 90 - 7,0
15. Robinson 94 - 6,5
16. Oscar 64 - 6,5
17. West 69 - 6,5
18. Erving - 6,0
19. Wade - 6,0
20. Moses - 6,0

[ardee]

1. MJ 91 - 9,5
2. Shaq 00 - 9,0
3. Wilt 67 - 9,0
4. Kareem 77 - 8,5
5. Hakeem 95 - 8,5
6. Bird 86 - 8,0
7. Lebron 09 - 8,0
8. Russell 64 - 8,0
9. Magic 87 - 8,0
10. Duncan 03 - 7,5
11. Walton 77 - 7,5
12. Kobe 09- 7,0
13 Garnett 04 - 7,0
14. Barkley 90 - 7,0
15. Robinson 94 - 6,5
16. Oscar 64 - 6,5
17. West 69 - 6,5
18. Erving - 6,0
19. Wade - 6,0
20. Moses - 6,0

A bit high for Barkley no? But great list otherwise, liking where Kobe is placed

[Narigo]

1. 91 Jordan
2. 00 Shaq
3. 67 Wilt
4. 62 Russell
5. 87 Magic
6. 94 Hakeem
7. 77 Kareem
8. 09 LeBron
9. 86 Bird
10. 04 Garnett
11. 77 Walton
12. 03 Duncan
13. 64 Oscar
14. 76 Erving
15. 95 Robinson
16. 66 West
17. 09 Wade
18. 06 Dirk
19. 05 Nash
20. 08 Kobe
21. 90 Ewing
22. 93 Barkley

[Gregoire]

1. MJ 91 - 9,5
2. Shaq 00 - 9,0
3. Wilt 67 - 9,0
4. Kareem 77 - 8,5
5. Hakeem 95 - 8,5
6. Bird 86 - 8,0
7. Lebron 09 - 8,0
8. Russell 64 - 8,0
9. Magic 87 - 8,0
10. Duncan 03 - 7,5
11. Walton 77 - 7,5
12. Kobe 09- 7,0
13 Garnett 04 - 7,0
14. Barkley 90 - 7,0
15. Robinson 94 - 6,5
16. Oscar 64 - 6,5
17. West 69 - 6,5
18. Erving - 6,0
19. Wade - 6,0
20. Moses - 6,0

A bit high for Barkley no? But great list otherwise, liking where Kobe is placed

Now most difficult battles for me here its Wilt/Shaq for 2 spot and Lebron/Bird for 6 spot.

[pauk89]

Where does 2013 Durant rank on the list?

[ardee]

Where does 2013 Durant rank on the list?

Well it depends on his Playoff performance but if it ends up as proportionally good to his regular season as was the case in 2012 I think he'd jump at least 17 spots to be right in the Garnett-Doc-Kobe bracket in the 10-15 range.

[HeartBreakKid]

Hey, what exactly is the status on this project? Is it just waiting for the off season to start, or have we started?

I haven't followed it since the thread was created (I was waiting for people to form the rules/criteria since I was indifferent to allowing multiple seasons from the same player), so I am way out of the loop.

[SideshowBob]

It started mid-summer 2012 and tailed off in the mid-30s. It's over now.

[smackphilly]

.

[ardee]

More importantly over Durant, where do people think 2013 LeBron would rank here? I really think 10 was too low for him in the first place. 6-7 sounds about right to me.

[SideshowBob]

If he keeps this up and improves in the playoffs? #1, and TBH I've expected it since seeing the Olympics.

I have his previous peak (2010) as right behind Jordan and Shaq for #3. He looks like he's a couple notches ahead of that right now, so assuming he keeps this up, I see no reason for him not to be at the top.

[ardee]

If he keeps this up and improves in the playoffs? #1, and TBH I've expected it since seeing the Olympics.

I have his previous peak (2010) as right behind Jordan and Shaq for #3. He looks like he's a couple notches ahead of that right now, so assuming he keeps this up, I see no reason for him not to be at the top.

Ok, wow, that is a hell of a statement to make I can understand his going all the way up to that Wilt-Jordan-Shaq TERRITORY, but I'd be really interested to hear your argument for him over MJ. (And I think the Jordan fans are not going to take this well )

Do you have a rough idea as to the rest of your list, at least the top 15?

[SideshowBob]

If he keeps this up and improves in the playoffs? #1, and TBH I've expected it since seeing the Olympics.

I have his previous peak (2010) as right behind Jordan and Shaq for #3. He looks like he's a couple notches ahead of that right now, so assuming he keeps this up, I see no reason for him not to be at the top.

Ok, wow, that is a hell of a statement to make I can understand his going all the way up to that Wilt-Jordan-Shaq TERRITORY, but I'd be really interested to hear your argument for him over MJ. (And I think the Jordan fans are not going to take this well )

Do you have a rough idea as to the rest of your list, at least the top 15?

Yeah, I'm pretty confident in that statement, but I'm not going to try to argue it till after the playoffs. Just doesn't seem wise to, given the magnitude.

Not enough that I can post it, but it wouldn't deviate much from most of the ballots posted here (namely elGee and fatal). I might have a different opinion on which years for some guys, and obviously it won't be identical to others, but nothing big. I'm still going to hold out till after this season though, as I want to try to break it down by estimated SRS impact and separate it out, offense from defense, as well as include 2013 in the mix.

On the other hand, I haven't seen a list from you since the project ended, unless I glanced over it somewhere. Did you ever get around to updating it?

[thebottomline]

'13 LeBron could definitely end up in the argument with '91 Jordan and '00 Shaq at season's end.

Statistically he's the best finisher since prime Shaq, scoring at the rim (1-3 feet) at a rate of 78.0% (234/300 FG) compared to 2001 Shaq's rate of 78.5% (603/768), the highest since they've been tracking shot charts (2001).

AND he's shooting 42% from outside. Absurd combination.

His post play has improved more. He's better at moving within the offense. He's dominating the ball less and yet is more effective. His decision making and shot selection are the best of his career. His rebounding is the best of his career. And defensively we may see some DPOY-level stuff when the playoffs roll around again - he could be better than last year given his experience and better quickness this year.

Some of the arguments that were used against '09, '10, and '12 LeBron in the peaks project (ball dominance to be effective, portability issues, etc.) would be weaker arguments against '13 LeBron because of his improvements this year IMO.

He's unbelievably good right now and seems to somehow be getting better as the season progresses. Can't wait to see if he can carry this over into the playoffs.