RealGM

Inspired by the Duncan VS Kobe thread, these guys have been two of the best PFs in the league for about a decade. Who was the best every year though?

2001-
2002-
2003-
2004-
2005-
2006-
2007-
2008-
2009-
2010-
2011-
2012-

IMO:

2001-KG
2002-Dirk
2003-KG
2004-KG
2005-Dirk
2006-Dirk
2007-KG (yes even when Dirk got the MVP, on his own, KG was a much better rebounder)
2008-KG
2009-Dirk
2010-Dirk
2011-Dirk
2012-KG

I've got them even, what about you?

inbefore ahouhi says:

DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
.....

GetItDone wrote:inbefore ahouhi says:

DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
.....

Almost as likely as if you make a "Kobe vs Jordan: Peak" thread you can count on XFactor saying "Kobe easily"

GetItDone wrote:inbefore ahouhi says:

DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
DIRK
.....

Don't forget Texas Chuck to chime in regarding how overrated Garnett was.

Good thread.

01-KG
02-KG
03-KG
04-KG
05-KG
06-Dirk
07-Dirk
08-Tie
09-Dirk
10-Dirk
11-Dirk
12-Tie

Pretty much even. I've got it 5 for each of them, with 2 ties. But I think KG's 04 is better than anything Dirk ever did.

2001- Garnett
2002- Garnett
2003- Garnett
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Dirk
2007- Dirk
2008- Garnett
2009- Dirk
2010- Dirk
2011- Dirk
2012- Garnett

2002 was the only tough one for me.

2001 - KG
2002 - KG
2003 - DIRK
2004 - KG
2005 - DIRK
2006 - DIRK
2007 - DIRK
2008 - KG
2009 - DIRK
2010 - DIRK
2011 - DIRK
2012 - KG

therealbig3 wrote:Good thread.

01-KG
02-KG
03-KG
04-KG
05-KG
06-Dirk
07-Dirk
08-Tie
09-Dirk
10-Dirk
11-Dirk
12-Tie

Pretty much even. I've got it 5 for each of them, with 2 ties. But I think KG's 04 is better than anything Dirk ever did.

2005 is DIRK easily. KG didn't even make the playoffs that year.
2008 is KG easily; it's not a tie. KG helped lead Boston to the damn title.

Lightning25 wrote:2001- Garnett
2002- Garnett
2003- Garnett
2004- Garnett
2005- Garnett
2006- Dirk
2007- Dirk
2008- Garnett
2009- Dirk
2010- Dirk
2011- Dirk
2012- Garnett

2002 was the only tough one for me.

2003 was DIRK. He led Dallas to the WCFs before Ginobili injured his knee.
2005 was also DIRK. KG didn't even make the playoffs that year.

MavsManiac4Life wrote:Inspired by the Duncan VS Kobe thread, these guys have been two of the best PFs in the league for about a decade. Who was the best every year though?

2001-
2002-
2003-
2004-
2005-
2006-
2007-
2008-
2009-
2010-
2011-
2012-

IMO:

2001-KG
2002-Dirk
2003-KG
2004-KG
2005-Dirk
2006-Dirk
2007-KG (yes even when Dirk got the MVP, on his own, KG was a much better rebounder)
2008-KG
2009-Dirk
2010-Dirk
2011-Dirk
2012-KG

I've got them even, what about you?

You realize that in 2007 not only was DIRK the MVP, but KG also missed the playoffs for a third consecutive season.....

ahonui06 wrote:
2003 was DIRK. He led Dallas to the WCFs before Ginobili injured his knee.
2005 was also DIRK. KG didn't even make the playoffs that year.

I can't really penalize KG and give Dirk credit just because KG was in a bad situation whereas Dirk was in a good one or not as bad of one.

2002 was the only tough one for me but I do understand 2005. 2003? That is easily KG, KG was the 2nd best player in the league that season behind Duncan.

ahonui06 wrote:2001 - KG
2002 - KG
2003 - DIRK
2004 - KG
2005 - DIRK
2006 - DIRK
2007 - DIRK
2008 - KG
2009 - DIRK
2010 - DIRK
2011 - DIRK
2012 - KG

I'm shocked you have 02 for KG

Dirk owned him in the playoffs
33/16/3/1 on 53% and 73% from 3, 73%. Garnett had 24/19/5/2/2, but he also shot 43% and his team got swept

Two things to consider: Nowitzki has the better +/- based stats in 2001 and 2002 and 2012. I don't think that 2012 was a tie, even though it was close, but Nowitzki takes that. From my composite metric (combination of production and efficiency via my SPM plus RAPM, combined via best fit).

2003: Garnett
2004: Garnett
2005: Garnett
2006: Nowitzki
2007: Nowitzki
2008: Garnett
2009: Nowitzki
2010: Nowitzki
2011: Nowitzki
2012: Nowitzki

With 2003 and 2005 being a close win for Garnett, while 2007 and 2012 being a close win for Nowitzki.
For 2002 I have Nowitzki with +4.7 in SPM and in 10.3 APM (Wayne Winston), while Garnett has +4.8 SPM and +8.4 APM. In 2001 Nowitzki with +4.2 SPM and +12.7 APM, Garnett with +4.4 SPM and +6.7 APM. Looking at that I would say 2002 as a tie and 2001 close win for Nowitzki.
I think regarding 2001 and 2002 people may not be aware of the efficiency difference between Nowitzki and the league average. Nowitzki was a 60 TS% scorer, while the league average was 52 TS%. Plus 8 is like having a 62 TS% season today.

mysticbb wrote:Two things to consider: Nowitzki has the better +/- based stats in 2001 and 2002 and 2012. I don't think that 2012 was a tie, even though it was close, but Nowitzki takes that. From my composite metric (combination of production and efficiency via my SPM plus RAPM, combined via best fit).

2003: Garnett
2004: Garnett
2005: Garnett
2006: Nowitzki
2007: Nowitzki
2008: Garnett
2009: Nowitzki
2010: Nowitzki
2011: Nowitzki
2012: Nowitzki

With 2003 and 2005 being a close win for Garnett, while 2007 and 2012 being a close win for Nowitzki.
For 2002 I have Nowitzki with +4.7 in SPM and in 10.3 APM (Wayne Winston), while Garnett has +4.8 SPM and +8.4 APM. In 2001 Nowitzki with +4.2 SPM and +12.7 APM, Garnett with +4.4 SPM and +6.7 APM. Looking at that I would say 2002 as a tie and 2001 close win for Nowitzki.
I think regarding 2001 and 2002 people may not be aware of the efficiency difference between Nowitzki and the league average. Nowitzki was a 60 TS% scorer, while the league average was 52 TS%. Plus 8 is like having a 62 TS% season today.

Do u happen to have a thread or somewhere where u explain your composite stat more Im interested.
Also who do you have ranked above Dirk?

GSP wrote:Do u happen to have a thread or somewhere where u explain your composite stat more Im interested.

I try to look for that, but without a search function, it is pretty tough. I for sure explained it somewhat in a thread about Deng, and somewhere in the discussions about Garnett vs. Nowitzki (maybe?). Also in the discussion thread about 2012 POY, I guess. No, idea.

But it comes down to:

a*OSPM+b*ORAPM = OCPM and c*DSPM+d*DRAPM = DCPM while OCPM+DCPM = CPM (composite plus minues)

GSP wrote:
Also who do you have ranked above Dirk?

In 2006 Nowitzki was #1, in 2007 Duncan was ahead, in 2009 multiple players like James, Wade, Bryant, Paul, in 2010 multiple players like James, Wade, Durant, Howard, Bryant, in 2011 Nowitzki was #1, in 2012 James was ahead. I would take minutes played into account as well in order to determine the best player (percentage of possible minutes played, thus no player has an advantage for playing on a better team and thus more minutes in the playoffs).

mysticbb wrote:

GSP wrote:Do u happen to have a thread or somewhere where u explain your composite stat more Im interested.

I try to look for that, but without a search function, it is pretty tough. I for sure explained it somewhat in a thread about Deng, and somewhere in the discussions about Garnett vs. Nowitzki (maybe?). Also in the discussion thread about 2012 POY, I guess. No, idea.

But it comes down to:

a*OSPM+b*ORAPM = OCPM and c*DSPM+d*DRAPM = DCPM while OCPM+DCPM = CPM (composite plus minues)

Ah very nice. Thanks. Ill look at ur site to see if theres more stuff.

GSP wrote:
Also who do you have ranked above Dirk?

In 2006 Nowitzki was #1, in 2007 Duncan was ahead, in 2009 multiple players like James, Wade, Bryant, Paul, in 2010 multiple players like James, Wade, Durant, Howard, Bryant, in 2011 Nowitzki was #1, in 2012 James was ahead. I would take minutes played into account as well in order to determine the best player (percentage of possible minutes played, thus no player has an advantage for playing on a better team and thus more minutes in the playoffs).[/quote]

Makes sense and reasonable. Id imagine u have Dirk ranked at 14 alltime given these results. I think thats fair.

01-Kevin GArnett
02-Kevin Garnett
03-Kevin Garnett
04-Kevin Garnett
05-Kevin Garnett
06-Tie
07-Dirk Nowitzki
08-Kevin Garnett
09-Dirk Nowitzki
10-Dirk Nowitzki
11-Dirk Nowitzki
12-Kevin Garnett

GSP wrote:Ah very nice. Thanks. Ill look at ur site to see if theres more stuff.

I changed the algorithm a bit, because of some issues I discovered in earlier years. The splitting between offense and defense was messed up, I got Mark Eaton for example with a big positive on offense while being negative on defense, while it should have been the opposite way giving the prior calculated data. I found the error in the subroutine and corrected it. I haven't had the time to put the new results on (and to be honest, I can't even say which years are correct now and which not), but I will try to do that as soon as possible. So, take the splitting for offense and defense with a grain of salt on the blog. I also think about ways to approximate certain missing boxscore entries for different players in order to come up with a version for earlier years (1977 and before).

GSP wrote:
Makes sense and reasonable. Id imagine u have Dirk ranked at 14 alltime given these results. I think thats fair.

To be quite blunt: I don't know it exactly. I have Garnett ahead of Nowitzki, and guys like Duncan and O'Neal. Others like Jordan, Russell, Abdul-Jabbar, etc. pp as well. I know that I have him above players like Barkley, Moses Malone, David Robinson. Thus, 14 might be a good number at this point.

AVolumeScorer wrote:

ahonui06 wrote:2001 - KG
2002 - KG
2003 - DIRK
2004 - KG
2005 - DIRK
2006 - DIRK
2007 - DIRK
2008 - KG
2009 - DIRK
2010 - DIRK
2011 - DIRK
2012 - KG

I'm shocked you have 02 for KG

Dirk owned him in the playoffs
33/16/3/1 on 53% and 73% from 3, 73%. Garnett had 24/19/5/2/2, but he also shot 43% and his team got swept

Obviously, DIRK destroyed KG in the postseason, but that's expected. DIRK is one of the greatest playoff performers in NBA history. His stats raise across the board quite significantly whereas KG remains right around his regular season numbers.

However, KG did have a better regular season in 2002 considering he had a weaker supporting cast this season.

I have DIRK for 7 years and KG for 5 years.

Lightning25 wrote:

ahonui06 wrote:
2003 was DIRK. He led Dallas to the WCFs before Ginobili injured his knee.
2005 was also DIRK. KG didn't even make the playoffs that year.

I can't really penalize KG and give Dirk credit just because KG was in a bad situation whereas Dirk was in a good one or not as bad of one.

2002 was the only tough one for me but I do understand 2005. 2003? That is easily KG, KG was the 2nd best player in the league that season behind Duncan.

2003 I gotta go with DIRK. DIRK took that Mavs team to the WCFs which is quite an impressive feat.

KG with 23-13-6 on 50-28-75 with superb D is nice.
DIRK with 25-10 on 46-38-88 with decent D is nice as well.

I just gotta base that season on the playoffs where DIRK went to WCFs before his injury and KG got eliminated in the firstround.