RealGM

Here we go folks. Getting this started NOW.

As this is the first thread of us doing this, I'm expecting conversation to not simply be strictly on topic, but also a bit broader FAQ-ish as people get their feet. I expect the time frame of each thread to converge at 2 DAYS PER THREAD. This time though I'm not setting a deadline ahead of time.

Reminder, you are to specify your vote in this format:

Vote: Adam Morrison '13

(or '12-13)

You can change your vote, but when you do, please make it easy for me by editing your existing Vote and acknowledging the change rather than making a new post.

This is not to say you can't have muliple posts in the thread, or posts after your Vote post. Discussion is paramount in importance here, so by all means, keep posting.

Can anyone vote?Or is it like top 100 when there's a list?

Alright, so right off the bat, here's what's on my mind:

When I think of the great peaks in history, I think of 3 guys: Shaq, Jordan, and Wilt.

However, it's also worth noting that from a pure team lift perspective, I don't think any of those guys ever lifted truly weak teams to great heights. When I think of that accomplishment, I think of Erving and LeBron. I'm expected to be persuaded to pick guys other than these two for the first spots, but we'll see.

With any of this stuff, if you'd like me to expound, let me know, I'll mix it in with the rest of my bloviation.

AVolumeScorer wrote:Can anyone vote?Or is it like top 100 when there's a list?

There's a list. Take a look at the official project thread for details.

If you're interested in the project, say you're interested and start participating without voting for some threads. If you prove solid, I'll add you.

Doctor MJ wrote:

AVolumeScorer wrote:Can anyone vote?Or is it like top 100 when there's a list?

There's a list. Take a look at the official project thread for details.

If you're interested in the project, say you're interested and start participating without voting for some threads. If you prove solid, I'll add you.

Got ya

Would prefer to sit back and watch as of now

I think of 4 guys in particular for highest peak of all time. MJ, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem at least statistically but in the end I feel MJ's 1991 was the greatest season and peak ever.

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
Jordan 91: 31.7, 0.32 -----------32.0, 0.33 (17 playoff game, title)
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Shaq 2000: 30.6, 0.28, --------- 30.5, 0.22 (23 playoff games, title)
Wilt 1967: 26.5, .285------------25.3, 0.25 (15 playoff games, title)

Regarding MJ 1991 vs Shaq 2000


MJ in the season = 20.30 Win Shares. Shaq = 18.65
MJ in the season = 31.63 PER, Shaq = 30.65


MJ in the playoffs = 4.77 Win Share, Shaq = 4.67
MJ in the playoffs = 32.04 PER, Shaq = 30.45


MJ in the finals = 31.5 PER and Shaq = 31.1


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-7
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2008/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=FinalsPerformances-8

So these two were neck and neck.

MJ had over a 31.5 PER in the season, playoffs and finals in 1991


Wilt's 1967 was great as well however to me with it being his 8th best season PER wise and 7th best in the playoffs he kinda hurts him here. Also in the playoffs he was the 2nd leading scorer on his team and in the finals he was the 5th leading scorer on the team.

Remember scoring was probably Wilt's greatest strength and to be 5th in it on the team in the finals is major.

http://webuns.chez-alice.fr/finals/1967.htm#

PHI. G FG-FGA FT-FTA REB AST PF PTS
Greer 6 59-148 38-46 48 37 23 156
Walker 6 46-102 48-62 53 20 23 140
Jones 6 50-110 21-28 21 32 22 121
Cunningham 6 48-107 22-40 34 18 27 118
Chamberlain 6 42-75 22-72 171 41 16 106


Final Vote: Michael Jordan 1990-1991 Season

JordansBulls wrote:scoring was probably Wilt's greatest strength

This season it was more about his defense, rebounding, passing, & leadership than scoring. Of course he could still put the ball in the hole, as evidenced by his 42 pt game vs Baltimore on 18/18 shooting (100% FG) & his 58 pt game vs Cincinnati.

Below we can read Coach Sharman's comments on Wilt:


The Miami News - Apr 17, 1967








Season of the 76ers: the story of Wilt Chamberlain and the 1967 NBA champion Philadelphia 76ers - Wayne Lynch

As soon as the 76ers reached the dressing room after their exhilarating last quarter that had given them a 140-116 victory, Wilt made a speech: "we've got to get four more wins before this season is over. Let's not lose sight of that," He was forceful, almost solemn. Such an attitude had as much to do with Philadelphia's success as Wilt's unmatched physical endowments. The key word was spoken afterwards by Alex Hannum, the 76er coach: "He was dedicated out there."






Regular Season:




Sarasota Journal - Feb 15, 1967




The Spokesman-Review - Feb 26, 1967






NBA Record - 35 consecutive field goals without a miss from February 17, 1967 through February 28, 1967


NBA Record - Most field goals in a game without a miss (18-18, Philadelphia 76ers vs. the Baltimore Bullets on February 24, 1967)

Chamberlain also holds the next two most with 16-16 (March 19, 1967) and 15-15 (January 20, 1967)


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a playoff game (41 against the Boston Celtics, on April 5, 1967).

-Game 3 victory in the Eastern Division finals.


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a half (26 against the San Francisco Warriors on April 16, 1967)

-Also an NBA Finals record.


NBA Playoff Record - Highest rebounding average in a playoff series (32.0 in a five game series against the Boston Celtics in 1967).


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 5-game playoff series (160 against the Boston Celtics in 1967).


NBA Playoff Record - Most rebounds in a 6-game playoff series (171 against the San Francisco Warriors in 1967).

-Also an NBA Finals record for a 6-game series.

The problem is that Wilt's greatest asset wasn't scoring. That was a lie. 67 showed his impact was way better when he wasn taking 25fga per game.

That said this is a two man race between Wilt and Shaq for me. I honestly don't know much about Wilt's season defensively but I know a lot about Shaq.

JB mentioned Shaq's PER but Shaq had Kobe in 2000. With an increase in volume scoring he would rank higher too. He averaged 29.7 (league leading)/13.6 (second)/3.8 (amazing) with 3blks (3rd) on 57.8TS (which is like having a 60TS nowadays). He anchored the best defense in the league and led the Lakers to a 5th ranked offense. The team went 67-15 (8.41 SRS) and aside from Shaq and Kobe the team was a clear lotto team. Kobe put up 22.5/6.3/4.9 on 54.6TS. A great second option but nothing historically good (yet). He also worked in a single team nearly every game because nobody doubled off Shaq.

Shaq was also very consistent. In 63 of his 79 games he scored between 20-39. He never scored under 17 in a full game and in games where he scored under 20 he was guarded so heavily they went 6-1. In that one loss (against Portland during Sheed's best year) Shaq had 17/16/7 with 6 blocks and one turnover.

In the playoffs he was a monster. Only had one game where he didn't have at least 20 points or 10 rebounds. In the Finals he averaged 15.5fta per game and put up 38/16.7/2.3 59.3TS. The only series that you can say he "struggled" in was against Portland. He still put up 25.9/12.4/4.3 with 14.1ftpg on 54.8TS. Not his best but still dominate.

And for anyone wondering how this season was as a whole even after seeing my post watch his career high game against the Clippers. He literately scored everytime they didn't double him hard.

Here are some stats of 1967 Wilt's playoff run courtesy of http://hoops-nation.com/community/index ... -1967-run/

Regular season: 24.1 ppg, 24.2 rpg, 7.8 apg on 68.3% FG/63.7% TS. 68 Ws, then the greatest season ever and still near the top of the list

1967 EDSF vs. Royals

G1 - 41 points, 23 rebounds, 5 assists, 63% FG
G2 - 37 points, 27 rebounds, 11 assists, 67% FG
G3 - 16 points, 30 rebounds, 19 assists, 62% FG
G4 - 18 points, 27 rebounds, 9 assists, 50% FG

Series Average: 28.0 ppg, 26.8 rpg, 11 apg, 61% FG
Oscar Robertson: 24.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 11.3 apg, 51.6% FG

1967 EDF vs. Celtics

G1 - 24 points, 32 rebounds, 12 assists, 12 blocks, 69% FG
G2 - 15 points, 29 rebounds, 5 assists, 5 blocks, 45% FG
G3 - 20 points, 41 rebounds, 9 assists, 5 blocks, 57% FG
G4 - 20 points, 22 rebounds, 10 assists, at least 3 blocks, 44% FG
G5 - 29 points, 36 rebounds, 13 assists, 7 blocks, 63% FG

Series Average: 21.6 ppg, 32.0 rpg, 10.0 apg, 6+ bpg, 56% FG
Bill Russell: 11.4 ppg, 23.4 rpg, 6.0 apg, 36% FG

1967 NBA Finals vs. Warriors

G1 - 16 points, 33 rebounds, 10 assists, 75% FG (including a game-saving block on Nate)
G2 - 10 points, 38 rebounds (26 in 1st half), 10 assists, 10 blocks, 40% FG
G3 - 26 points, 26 rebounds, 5 assists, 52% FG
G4 - 10 points, 27 rebounds, 8 assists, 11 blocks, 50% FG
G5 - 20 points, 24 rebounds, 4 assists, 60% FG
G6 - 24 points, 23 rebounds, 4 assists, 62% FG

Series Average: 17.6 ppg, 28.5 rpg, 6.8 apg, 56% FG
Nate Thurmond: 14.1 ppg, 26.6 rpg, 3.3 apg, 34% FG

Playoff averages: 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.0 apg, 57.9% FG/54.6% TS

Those numbers are just insane...

My vote unless I am convinced otherwise will be for Wilt's 67. He seems like he was Optimus Prime/Batman Bill Walton with his defense, rebounding, passing in addition to scoring as much as he needed to. 68 W season, annihilating the playoffs, beating the greatest dynasty of all time and his greatest rival in Russell the only time they lose in 11 seasons. Basically the combination of Wilt's scoring talent and passing and the talent around the Sixers made them an impossible guard it seems, while he killed it defensively and on the glass. Playing 45.5mpg in the season, 47.9mpg in the playoffs and never getting in foul trouble is also a bonus. I consider Wilt's 67 to be everything coming together for a player who's physical tools, skill and feel for the game allowed him to at least once, get to that "WTF" level of ability matching his talent, that others could not approach

Dipper 13 wrote:Regular Season:

Wow, that's very interesting. The difference between his scoring against Russell & Thurmond and everyone else is insane. He goes from a hyper-efficient mid volume player to literally an inefficient one.

So for me on Wilt '67, I'd really like to see thoughts on why the team's offense was so incredible that year, and what happened in the next year to change things. Was this just a difference in Wilt's focus, or was there more to it?

My vote is for Wilt '66-67. I'll expound when I get back to my files.

I haven't committed to anyone yet but I have to ask the Wilt voters why Wilt over Shaq? Shaq led a supporting cast around as good as Wilt's (give or take) to just as good of a season. He also led an offense that was +3.2 over league average and a defense that was -5.9 on defense (negative being good). His team's defense was better than Wilt's offense and his offense better than Wilt's defense. He also beat 4 teams in the playoffs all better than two of the three teams that the Warriors played.

Magnificent numbers for Wilt, but I'd ask how much those numbers reflected Wilt and how much those numbers reflected the excellent team around him (Jones, Jackson, Walker et. al.) that basically put him in the box seat to have that sort of statistical impact.

To be clear, I'm not clearly distinguishing Wilt's game impact with his statistical impact (which Wilt himself had trouble with), but I'm asking how much the team context impacted his production.

C-izMe wrote:I haven't committed to anyone yet but I have to ask the Wilt voters why Wilt over Shaq? Shaq led a supporting cast around as good as Wilt's (give or take) to just as good of a season. He also led an offense that was +3.2 over league average and a defense that was -5.9 on defense (negative being good). His team's defense was better than Wilt's offense and his offense better than Wilt's defense. He also beat 4 teams in the playoffs all better than two of the three teams that the Warriors played.

What about strength of opposition?
Wilt went through the greatest defensive dynasty in history (being the only number one option to beat a team by led by a healthy Russell) and the second best defensive center of that time in Thurmond (who has a very strong case for greatest man defender ever).

Shaq went through Vlade Divac, past prime broken down Sabonis (who Id argue wasnt better than Jerry Lucas at that point) and Rik Smits...

GSP wrote:

C-izMe wrote:I haven't committed to anyone yet but I have to ask the Wilt voters why Wilt over Shaq? Shaq led a supporting cast around as good as Wilt's (give or take) to just as good of a season. He also led an offense that was +3.2 over league average and a defense that was -5.9 on defense (negative being good). His team's defense was better than Wilt's offense and his offense better than Wilt's defense. He also beat 4 teams in the playoffs all better than two of the three teams that the Warriors played.

What about strength of opposition?
Wilt went through the greatest defensive dynasty in history (being the only number one option to beat a team by led by a healthy Russell) and the second best defensive center of that time in Thurmond (who has a very strong case for greatest man defender ever).

Shaq went through Vlade Divac, past prime broken down Sabonis (who Id argue wasnt better than Jerry Lucas at that point) and Rik Smits...

In terms of 1 on 1 position matchups he played weaker competitions but he beat better teams. The only good teams that year were the Celtics and the Sixers.

C-izMe wrote:I haven't committed to anyone yet but I have to ask the Wilt voters why Wilt over Shaq? Shaq led a supporting cast around as good as Wilt's (give or take) to just as good of a season. He also led an offense that was +3.2 over league average and a defense that was -5.9 on defense (negative being good). His team's defense was better than Wilt's offense and his offense better than Wilt's defense. He also beat 4 teams in the playoffs all better than two of the three teams that the Warriors played.

It sounds like Wilt was better defensively to me, as I think he is more suited to defense because of his mobility in comparison to Shaq. Offensively it's probably pretty close.

Another thing I have to ask is if I'm the only person who sees 67 Wilt as a healthy, high minute playing 77 Walton on steroids? I've recently been trying to find out more about Bill (for this thread) and he's shot up my list peak wise