#2 Highest Peak of All Time (Shaq '00 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Michael Jordan '91 was enshrined at the #1 spot. We now decide #2.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Wilt 1967

For reasons I outlined in the last thread I feel he is playing at the all time most complete level of scoring, passing (in a super valuable high post facilitating C role), rebounding and defense, with an FU mode playoff performance and taking down arguably the hardest team to beat ever. In regards to Shaq 2000 I see Wilt as better defensively and on the glass to a greater extent than Shaq is better offensively (Especially considering we know Wilt could score like Shaq if he wanted to and held back in the services of his role) and as pointed out in the last thread Shaq's last few Portland games seem a bit more shaky than any of Wilt's performances in the PS to pick hairs. I have 2004 KG and 1977 Bill Walton pretty high on my list and I see 67 Wilt as a slightly better season than those 2 years

I am Dr Mufasa if it's not incredibly obvious

[C-izMe]

My vote is for 2000 Shaq.




I really want to see other people ente the conversation at this point. Maybe Russell?

[therealbig3]

I'm going with 2000 Shaq. It was actually pretty close for me in the last thread, between him and Jordan.

Shaq in 2000 was an elite defensive anchor, he stayed healthy, and he was super-dominant offensively. Wasn't as great in the playoffs as he was the very next year, but the way he played overall in 2000 was better than in 2001.

I think Shaq is the one center that is one of the 5-6 best players ever offensively. And I think his defense this year was comparable to Wilt's. So that's the way I see it, in Shaq I see someone who was comparable defensively and superior offensively.

BTW, Shaq had 296 FTA through 23 games that year! That's an average of 12.9 FTA/game. IMO, at that point, yes you would love if he hit his FTs at a respectable rate (only shot 46% from the line in the playoffs), but he's pretty much fouling out the opposing front line, and he's putting his team in the bonus early, which means any loose ball foul or any ticky tack fouls called for any other Lakers player results in FTs. So even if Shaq is missing FTs, he's helping everyone else tremendously, and he's depleting the opposing front line.


Vote: 2000 Shaq

[PTB Fan]

Vote: '00 Shaquille O'Neal

I'm voting for Shaq for the already stated reasons. Excellent RS, committed to defense, dominated on both sides of the courts, led his team to a #1 record, was one vote away from being the first unanimous MVP winner, ranked across among the statistical leaders throughout the RS, PS and Finals, made a big impact, dominated the playoffs and went off in the Finals with an epic performance.

[JordansBulls]

Between these 4 for me with Russell also in the mix.

--------- RS PER, WS48, --------- PER, WS48 playoffs
KAJ 1971: 29.0, 0.33, -----------25.0, 0.27 (14 playoff games, title)
Shaq 2000: 30.6, 0.28, --------- 30.5, 0.22 (23 playoff games, title)
Wilt 1967: 26.5, 0.285------------25.3, 0.25 (15 playoff games, title)
Hakeem 1994: 25.3, 0.210----------27.7, 0.208 (23 playoff games, title)

I'm just not sure which Russell to pick. In 1965 Celtics won a game 7 by 1 point at home. In 1962 both series went 7 and won one of them by 2 points and the other by 3 points in OT.
So if I was to pick a Russell it would probably be the 1963 or 1964 version. IMO it appears it will be tough to pick a guy outside of the year he won league mvp in this debate which is why deciding on 1964 will be tough for me here.
Hakeem 1994 was good, but he as well went the distance in a few series and one of them nearly lost as was down 3-2 and went down to the last seconds.
Shaq 2000 benefited from a major choke job by the opponent in order to win as well.

Vote: Kareem 1971 (Not to mention put a team that never won anything and gave them a title)

[therealbig3]

The way I have my peaks for now:

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. LeBron
6. Magic
7. Bird
8. Kareem
9. Duncan
10. Hakeem
11. KG
12. Walton
13. Dr. J
14. Dirk
15. T-Mac
16. Wade
17. Kobe
18. Oscar
19. Nash
20. Barkley
21. West
22. D-Rob
23. K. Malone

Really close between all of them though. I think the top 4 are pretty set, but 5-13 can almost be in any order.

EDIT: Duh I forgot Kareem . I added him in now. Extended the list to 23 as well, but it's bound to change as the project goes on.

[colts18]

I mentioned this on another thread. Here is how elite Shaq's defense is. First off is how Shaq did vs. the top 5 non-Shaq scorers at Center. Then I'm going to compare him to the league average and DPOY Alonzo Mourning.


vs. Shaq (parenthesis is regular season average)
Mourning: 27 PPG, 44.2 FG%, (21.7 PPG, 55.1 FG% )

DRob: 13.3PPG, 42.1 FG% (17.8 PPG, 51.2 FG%) (was 15 Points on 54.5 FG% in the game Shaq missed)

Ewing: 13 PPG, 32.4 FG% (15 PPG, 46.6 FG%)

Smits: 8 PPG, 47.1 FG% (12.9 PPG, 48.4 FG%), 10 PPG 46.6 FG% in finals vs. Shaq

Campbell: 7 PPG, 28.6 FG% (12.7 PPG, 44.6 FG%)

Average dropoff is 10.3 FG%. That is a significant dropoff.


Here is a comparison between Mourning and Shaq in 2000. This is the stats of all Centers in the league that played 24 minutes in a game vs Shaq/Mourning. This is Per 36:

vs. Shaq: 12.46 PPG, 42.5 FG%, .462 TS% 1.48 AST-1.68 TOV

vs. Mourning: 12.53 PPG, 45.4 FG%, .512 TS%, 1.23 AST-1.83 TOV

vs. league average: 13.97 PPG, 50.2 FG%, .547 TS%, 1.50 AST-2.02 TOV

*League average does not include Shaq

Dropoff: Shaq-League Avg: 1.21 PPG, 7.7 FG%, 8.5 TS%, -0.2 AST, +0.19 TOV


vs Shaq: 10% 20+ points, 25% 15+ points, 48% <10 points

vs. Mourning: 14% 20+ Points, 20% 15+ points, 44% <10 points

League average: 13.9% 20+ Points, 32.1% 15+ points, 38.2% <10 points


Shaq was most definitely on Mourning's level. He was elite.

[ThaRegul8r]

Now that Jordan's in, it seems Shaq is a given at #2.

(EDIT: I suppose I must make it clear lest I be misconstrued. This is not my vote, I'm merely making an observation. My vote is still '67 Wilt, as I look at what the player actually did in the season in question.)

[Dr Positivity]

I feel like we're restricting the conversation to players who won a title a little too much. Admittedly it feels more "right" to award the player for their title year, but would it be fair to say that if 2000 Shaq lost that G7 to Portland, he's basically 2009 Lebron? Nothing against 2000 Shaq, maybe we should just be giving a bit more of a chance to 2009 Lebron. 66 Ws with that team is basically the GOAT regular season impact and then he dropped a 35/9/7 and 38.5ppg against Orlando...

[Lightning25]

My top 12

1. 1991 MJ
2. 1967 Wilt
3. 1994 Hakeem
4. 2000 Shaq
5. 1977 Kareem
6. 2012 LeBron
7. 1987 Magic
8. 1986 Bird
9. 1977 Walton
10. 2003 Duncan
11. 2008 Kobe
12. 1976 Erving

[ThaRegul8r]

I'm just not sure which Russell to pick. In 1965 Celtics won a game 7 by 1 point at home. In 1962 both series went 7 and won one of them by 2 points and the other by 3 points in OT.
So if I was to pick a Russell it would probably be the 1963 or 1964 version. IMO it appears it will be tough to pick a guy outside of the year he won league mvp in this debate which is why deciding on 1964 will be tough for me here.

There's actually a story behind Russell not winning the MVP in 1964 which is external to what he actually did on the court. If it becomes relevant whenever he becomes a serious candidate, I may post it.

[An Unbiased Fan]

I mentioned this on another thread. Here is how elite Shaq's defense is. First off is how Shaq did vs. the top 5 non-Shaq scorers at Center. Then I'm going to compare him to the league average and DPOY Alonzo Mourning.


vs. Shaq (parenthesis is regular season average)
Mourning: 27 PPG, 44.2 FG%, (21.7 PPG, 55.1 FG% )

DRob: 13.3PPG, 42.1 FG% (17.8 PPG, 51.2 FG%) (was 15 Points on 54.5 FG% in the game Shaq missed)

Ewing: 13 PPG, 32.4 FG% (15 PPG, 46.6 FG%)

Smits: 8 PPG, 47.1 FG% (12.9 PPG, 48.4 FG%), 10 PPG 46.6 FG% in finals vs. Shaq

Campbell: 7 PPG, 28.6 FG% (12.7 PPG, 44.6 FG%)

Average dropoff is 10.3 FG%. That is a significant dropoff.


Here is a comparison between Mourning and Shaq in 2000. This is the stats of all Centers in the league that played 24 minutes in a game vs Shaq/Mourning. This is Per 36:

vs. Shaq: 12.46 PPG, 42.5 FG%, .462 TS% 1.48 AST-1.68 TOV

vs. Mourning: 12.53 PPG, 45.4 FG%, .512 TS%, 1.23 AST-1.83 TOV

vs. league average: 13.97 PPG, 50.2 FG%, .547 TS%, 1.50 AST-2.02 TOV

*League average does not include Shaq

Dropoff: Shaq-League Avg: 1.21 PPG, 7.7 FG%, 8.5 TS%, -0.2 AST, +0.19 TOV


vs Shaq: 10% 20+ points, 25% 15+ points, 48% <10 points

vs. Mourning: 14% 20+ Points, 20% 15+ points, 44% <10 points

League average: 13.9% 20+ Points, 32.1% 15+ points, 38.2% <10 points


Shaq was most definitely on Mourning's level. He was elite.

I didn't get a chance to reply in the other thread before it was done, but I'm not sure why you extrapolated these numbers out. Shaq was definitely great in man2man situations, but the point of my original post was that he really didn't have any offensive threats to guard. Zo was the only offensive center other than Shaq in 2000. 95% of the guys he guarded were non-impact scorers that year.

But to show the difference between Shaq and elite defenders like Zo & Mutumbo....let's look at how they guarded Shaq himself in 2000. This will speak to 2 things that I think is important when comparing 2000 Shaq to Wilt, KAJ, Bird, Magic, and so on. Zo & Deke were basically the last great defenders left at C in 2000, and Shaq wasn't exactly the MDE when he faced two great defenders at C.

Shaq's season averages - 29.7 PPG on 58% TS

Shaq against Zo(2 games):
22.5 PPG on 48% TS

Shaq against Dikembe(2 games):
16 PPG on 37% TS
^
Those numbers are rather striking, and goes back to my point about hoe 30.7 PPG on 56% TS against the like of Divac, Longley, Old Sabonis, and Smits, is not the most dominant playoff run I have seen.

Again, these are the best 10 centers Shaq had to guard, which basically means he didn't have to guard anyone of importance 90% of the time.

1) Zo - 21.7 PPG
2) DRob - 17.8 PPG
3) Ewing - 15.0 PPG
4) Smits - 12.9 PPG
5) Campbell - 12.7 PPG
6) Divac - 12.3 PPG
7) Ratcliff - 11.9 PPG
8) Sabonis - 11.8 PPG
9) Mutuombo - 11.5 PPG
10) Amaechi - 10.5 PPG

So people have to ask themselves, was 2000 Shaq doing other things like playing elite help defense.... because I didn't see it. Was he guarding other bigs who played the 4, and offered real offensive threats....nope, he never really guarded TD, Sheed, Webber, etc.


At this point people have to figure out some kind of criteria for picking the best peak, because right now it seems a bit arbitrary. Too much weight on title winning years, for example. 1964 Wilt > 1967 Wilt. 77' KAJ = best.

91' MJ was a no-brainer due to it having pretty much everything, but #2 is wide open.

[ThaRegul8r]

I didn't get a chance to reply in the other thread before it was done, but I'm not sure why you extrapolated these numbers out. Shaq was definitely great in man2man situations, but the point of my original post was that he really didn't have any offensive threats to guard. Zo was the only offensive center other than Shaq in 2000. 95% of the guys he guarded were non-impact scorers that year.

But to show the difference between Shaq and elite defenders like Zo & Mutumbo....let's look at how they guarded Shaq himself in 2000. This will speak to 2 things that I think is important when comparing 2000 Shaq to Wilt, KAJ, Bird, Magic, and so on. Zo & Deke were basically the last great defenders left at C in 2000, and Shaq wasn't exactly the MDE when he faced two great defenders at C.

Shaq's season averages - 29.7 PPG on 58% TS

Shaq against Zo(2 games):
22.5 PPG on 48% TS

Shaq against Dikembe(2 games):
16 PPG on 37% TS
^
Those numbers are rather striking, and goes back to my point about hoe 30.7 PPG on 56% TS against the like of Divac, Longley, Old Sabonis, and Smits, is not the most dominant playoff run I have seen.

Again, these are the best 10 centers Shaq had to guard, which basically means he didn't have to guard anyone of importance 90% of the time.

1) Zo - 21.7 PPG
2) DRob - 17.8 PPG
3) Ewing - 15.0 PPG
4) Smits - 12.9 PPG
5) Campbell - 12.7 PPG
6) Divac - 12.3 PPG
7) Ratcliff - 11.9 PPG
8) Sabonis - 11.8 PPG
9) Mutuombo - 11.5 PPG
10) Amaechi - 10.5 PPG

So people have to ask themselves, was 2000 Shaq doing other things like playing elite help defense.... because I didn't see it. Was he guarding other bigs who played the 4, and offered real offensive threats....nope, he never really guarded TD, Sheed, Webber, etc.

Hmm. Valid point. And goes to what I said about advocates painting their player in the best possible light instead of objectively looking at the good AND the bad and trying to best come up with a fair ranking. His unstoppability seems overrated at times due to the availability heuristic. Everyone remembers Shaq's dominant games, but people don't remember the times he wasn't so dominant, and thus the former becomes how he was all the time for many people. I also have articles which I read at the time about how we'll never know how good Shaq actually was due to the lack of competition at his peak. Rebuttal?

[SilkStream]

We can just assume you didn't watch Shaq that year then UBF.
His post and rim protection defense was amazing and most opposing teams were forced to rely on perimeter shooting against the Lakers.

Very few large defensive anchors like Shaq, Kareem are gonna be chasing or asked to guard quick PF's like Amare or Webber on the perimeter... it just doesn't happen.
Maybe if you have a Hakeem or Robinson that is different but also a clear double standard.

The fact that LA had the best defense in the league (which got better when Kobe was out) with very little defensive talent speaks to just how dominant O'neal was at a post and rim protector.
His help defense was also very good in terms of stepping out on switches etc...

Just because the league wasn't chock full of elite offensive C's doesn't mean Shaq's defensive impact wasn't great.
That is a really illogical way to try and discredit someones play.
Throughout the 90's Shaq held elite defensive C's well below there normal %'s like Ewing, Hakeem and Robinson.
I forgot who it was who wrote an article on GM awhile ago detailing this.

Also your stats showing Shaq VS Zo are cherry picked.
Shaq had one bad game against Zo where he shot poorly from the field but still had 17 / 11 / 7ast / 2blk and he was doubled/triple teamed heavily.
Zo alone had no chance against Shaq and Shaq over his career has consistently dominated offensively against Zo.

In the other game Shaq had 28pts on 57%TS with 11rbd / 3ast / 4blk and Shaq clearly outplayed Zo in both games and with LA winning both matchups.

Same situation with Mutombo and obviously if you doubt Shaqs ability to dominate Mutombo you can just watch the 2001 Finals...

@ThaRegular : Shaq significantly outplayed Tim Duncan in the 2001 Playoffs despite him having a still very potent David Robinson at his side (17 / 12 / 3bpg) and absolutely annihilated Prime DPOY Mutombo in the Finals.

Also the Sabonis/Sheed/Pippen defense Shaq dominated against in multiple games was Elite and All-Star Dale Davis was a very good post defender.

[C-izMe]

Shaq played great against the centers in the 90s. Either you believe he was WORSE by 00 or that he would've done perfectly fine with better centers in the league. Shaq in his third season nearly played Hakeem Olajuwon (at his best) to a stalemate. How he would've done against better competition isn't a question IMO.

Now there are legit questions about how great he was in that playoff run (by legit questions i mean two games against Portland where he wasn't GOAT level but still played good) but doubting his great he was in the regular season is absurd.

[ThaRegul8r]

@ThaRegular : Shaq significantly outplayed Tim Duncan in the 2001 Playoffs despite him having a still very potent David Robinson at his side (17 / 12 / 3bpg) and absolutely annihilated Prime DPOY Mutombo in the Finals.

I'm aware of what Shaq did in the '01 playoffs. Perhaps you missed when I said in the last thread that Shaq was more consistently dominant in the '01 playoffs than he was in '00. However, '01 was a different year, and '01 Shaq is not who is being discussed. '00 Shaq is. Players are not carbon copies every single year, and so what he did in the '01 playoffs would be a point in his favor if '01 Shaq was being nominated.

[ThaRegul8r]

Now there are legit questions about how great he was in that playoff run (by legit questions i mean two games against Portland where he wasn't GOAT level but still played good) but doubting his great he was in the regular season is absurd.

It seems to me that people invariably posit a false dichotomy. The two choices are not GREAT or SUCKED. We're talking about GOAT here.

[SilkStream]

@ThaRegular :
I appreciate what you are saying but what I am saying is that Shaq was just as good in 00 if not better and just because the competition at his position wasn't as good as it was in the following year doesn't change his value/impact.

[An Unbiased Fan]

We can just assume you didn't watch Shaq that year then UBF.
His post and rim protection defense was amazing and most opposing teams were forced to rely on perimeter shooting against the Lakers.

I saw every Laker game that year, try again. And while Shaq did provide a big presence in the paint, he wasn't Mark Eaton, or even Dwight. He was good, not great.

Very few large defensive anchors like Shaq, Kareem are gonna be chasing or asked to guard quick PF's like Amare or Webber on the perimeter... it just doesn't happen.
Maybe if you have a Hakeem or Robinson that is different but also a clear double standard.

This is a strange comment, because you're basically admitting that Shaq wasn't an elite defender like a Hakeem or DRob. Prime DRob was 7'1 240, and could guard 4 or 5's, while giving elite help. hmmmm.....

The fact that LA had the best defense in the league (which got better when Kobe was out) with very little defensive talent speaks to just how dominant O'neal was at a post and rim protector.
His help defense was also very good in terms of stepping out on switches etc...

I already pointed out in the first thread that LA only faced a team with a SRS above 0, a grand total of 3 times while Kobe was out. That Laker squad was filled with quality defenders, with Rice being the only bad one.

But question, does this mean that Shaq played no defense in 2001 when LA was #21 in DRtg? Or could it be that you shouldn't attribute a TEAM rating with one individual??

Just because the league wasn't chock full of elite offensive C's doesn't mean Shaq's defensive impact wasn't great.
That is a really illogical way to try and discredit someones play.
Throughout the 90's Shaq held elite defensive C's well below there normal %'s like Ewing, Hakeem and Robinson.
I forgot who it was who wrote an article on GM awhile ago detailing this.

Well actually, the fact that there were no impact centers on offense, and that Shaq didn't guard PFs, means Shaq's defensive impact was a bit muted. Clearly he provided a solid presence in the paint, but the brunt of the action defensively rested on the other 4 players.

Also your stats showing Shaq VS Zo are cherry picked.
Shaq had one bad game against Zo where he shot poorly from the field but still had 17 / 11 / 7ast / 2blk and he was doubled/triple teamed heavily.
Zo alone had no chance against Shaq and Shaq over his career has consistently dominated offensively against Zo.

In the other game Shaq had 28pts on 57%TS with 11rbd / 3ast / 4blk and Shaq clearly outplayed Zo in both games and with LA winning both matchups.

I don't see how picking ALL the games they played against each other in 2000 is 'cherry picking".

Those numbers were in reply to an earlier post. But for you to focus on just Shaq's good games IS cherry picking. Why do you prefer to look at his good games in 2000, as opposed to the averages I posted?

Same situation with Mutombo and obviously if you doubt Shaqs ability to dominate Mutombo you can just watch the 2001 Finals...

If you want to make an argument for 2001 Shaq, then fine. But I thought we were discussing 2000 Shaq.

Also the Sabonis/Sheed/Pippen defense Shaq dominated against in multiple games was Elite and All-Star Dale Davis was a very good post defender.

Yet...Shaq's numbers were all down against Portland - 25.9 ppg. 12.4 rpg, 53.7% FG. And please stop including Pippen when he was guarding Kobe in that series.


When speaking of the best peaks, I would think we would be comparing the best offensive & defensive peaks, along with the best 2-way peaks. MJ had a great offensive peak in 91', along with great defensive play. 87' Magic vs 64' Russell, how does that shake down? 64' Wilt vs 00' Shaq vs 94' Hakeem. 86' Bird vs 12' Lebron. What about 03' Duncan or 04' KG? Or great 2-way peaks like 06' Kobe & 94' DRob. I'm surprised at how few heated debates there have been.