#7 Highest Peak of All Time (Bird '86 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Kareem takes the 6th spot.

We'll try to move this back up to the 2 day limit again. Remember folks, I want you to get your votes in, but the discussion will always be paramount. My attempt to speed things up does not mean that anyone should move to just logging votes.

[colts18]

I'm voting in Kareem this time. Here is what I wrote in another thread about Kareem's Game 4 vs. Walton:

FG when kareem/Walton was guarding each other:
Walton: 6-20 FG, drew 1 shooting foul
Kareem: 8-14 FG, drew 2 shooting fouls (made 1 one of them), 4 of them doubled teamed (3-4 FG)

# of possessions where teammate passed the ball to them with both in game:
Walton: 35 (24 in post), 2 double teams
Kareem: 31 (28 of them in the post), 16 double teams (1 triple team)

Amazing thing is not once was Walton doubled in the post. There wasn't a time where even 1 one of the Lakers players made a move towards Walton in the post. They let Kareem handle him 1 on 1. The only doubles came late in the shot clock. While Kareem was doubled 15 times in the post in 28 post possessions. Most of the non double teams came because Kareem threw it back quickly. When he dribbled, more often than not, he was doubled.

In case you were wondering, Kareem was 6-9 in hook shots vs. Walton (made 2 of them with Walton out of the game too). Walton was 1 out of 6 in hook shots. Kareem's hook shot was unstoppable. I'm not sure how anyone can guard that shot if Kareem is within 10 feet of the basket.

+/-:
Walton: +5 in, -1 out
Kareem: +5 in, -9 out

As far as passing, Walton did beat out Kareem in that category. Most of his possessions came in a faceup where he could shoot or pass it. He threw a lot of passes to cutting teammates. Kareem mostly passed when he was doubled. He was surprisingly slow on those passes and made quite a few sloppy passes that were deflected/stolen.


Overall, Kareem was more dominant IMO. His scoring ability was marvelous. As far as defense goes, Kareem played quite well in help defense. He had about 6 blocks by my count with most of them in help defense. He also drew 1 charge where he didn't fall down and/or flop (that would never get called in today's NBA). Walton's passing was as good as advertised, but not good enough to overcome Kareem especially when you consider that Kareem was doubled about half the time while Walton was always being single covered.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 86 Bird*

Going with Bird here, mainly based on the arguments ElGee has presented for him.

*Edit from my original vote for 09 LeBron.

[therealbig3]

I'm voting in Kareem this time. Here is what I wrote in another thread about Kareem's Game 4 vs. Walton:

FG when kareem/Walton was guarding each other:
Walton: 6-20 FG, drew 1 shooting foul
Kareem: 8-14 FG, drew 2 shooting fouls (made 1 one of them), 4 of them doubled teamed (3-4 FG)

# of possessions where teammate passed the ball to them with both in game:
Walton: 35 (24 in post), 2 double teams
Kareem: 31 (28 of them in the post), 16 double teams (1 triple team)

Amazing thing is not once was Walton doubled in the post. There wasn't a time where even 1 one of the Lakers players made a move towards Walton in the post. They let Kareem handle him 1 on 1. The only doubles came late in the shot clock. While Kareem was doubled 15 times in the post in 28 post possessions. Most of the non double teams came because Kareem threw it back quickly. When he dribbled, more often than not, he was doubled.

In case you were wondering, Kareem was 6-9 in hook shots vs. Walton (made 2 of them with Walton out of the game too). Walton was 1 out of 6 in hook shots. Kareem's hook shot was unstoppable. I'm not sure how anyone can guard that shot if Kareem is within 10 feet of the basket.

+/-:
Walton: +5 in, -1 out
Kareem: +5 in, -9 out

As far as passing, Walton did beat out Kareem in that category. Most of his possessions came in a faceup where he could shoot or pass it. He threw a lot of passes to cutting teammates. Kareem mostly passed when he was doubled. He was surprisingly slow on those passes and made quite a few sloppy passes that were deflected/stolen.


Overall, Kareem was more dominant IMO. His scoring ability was marvelous. As far as defense goes, Kareem played quite well in help defense. He had about 6 blocks by my count with most of them in help defense. He also drew 1 charge where he didn't fall down and/or flop (that would never get called in today's NBA). Walton's passing was as good as advertised, but not good enough to overcome Kareem especially when you consider that Kareem was doubled about half the time while Walton was always being single covered.

Kareem got voted in last thread.

[therealbig3]

Kareem '77 wins!

Man, I'm really surprised that's the year representing Kareem.

I found this interesting. What makes you say that? To me, it was between 71 and 77, and I couldn't help but go with 77 (if I had gone with Kareem).

[drza]

Who says I have Duncan's peak above theirs? Also, note that Hakeem's number is in a year where his defense was past prime. I consider Duncan's defense to be on par with Hakeem's and below Walton's, all in the same ballpark.

This touches on something I'm finding amusing right now. For some players, their offensive and defensive peaks are not at the same time, and this can make quite a big difference. For example Hakeem and the notorious KG, who if I add up his best offense and his best defense is absolutely stunning, but who I literally don't think it's possible for him to have done both at the same time. And it really is what they were able to do all at one time that matters here.

Replying to one of your posts from last thread. While this is an excellent point, it should be noted that 2004 KG finished #1 in offensive RAPM and #3 in defensive RAPM in the same season. This is the closest that any player has come to finishing #1 on both offense and defense simultaneously in the decade of RAPM data that we have. And this was also a year after KG finished top-7 in both offensive and defensive RAPM in 2003. And in the now infamous Ilardi multi-year APM, Garnett finished #1 (by far) on defense and top-6 on offense from '04 - '09.

Point being: KG's offensive and defensive peaks might not have aligned perfectly...but there was still a lot of overlap. And in his peak year he was quite arguably the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA at the same time. Which, as you point out, is all that matters for the sake of this project.

[Josephpaul]

Changing my vote to Ducan 03! After reviewing his run versus magic it was but I feel Duncan truly took his game to another level . I remember He scored 36 on Shaq and the lakers big . Cuts like knife but it's definetly deserves this spot

[AnaheimRoyale]

And here come the KG fans...

[Doctor MJ]

So Kareem 71 can't be voted in now?

No. Folks, please re-read the first post on the Project thread.

If you have questions, then go ahead an PM me after that, but I've lost track of how many times I've told people to do this.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote 2003 Duncan

It's basically right there with 94 Hakeem. Perfect all around season

[Doctor MJ]

Kareem '77 wins!

Man, I'm really surprised that's the year representing Kareem.

I found this interesting. What makes you say that? To me, it was between 71 and 77, and I couldn't help but go with 77 (if I had gone with Kareem).

Well, in the regular season he had better stats in '71 while leading a more successful team. Yes, his numbers went through the roof in the '77 playoffs, but his team got swept while this happened.

Of course, that's not a firm rebuttal from me, I'm just surprised people went in the direction they did. In some ways I'm quite encouraged that they didn't just side with his title year, but on the other hand from what I could tell it was 3-2 for '77 over '71 before people started strategically switching so I don't really felt like a firm statement was made.

[Doctor MJ]

Replying to one of your posts from last thread. While this is an excellent point, it should be noted that 2004 KG finished #1 in offensive RAPM and #3 in defensive RAPM in the same season. This is the closest that any player has come to finishing #1 on both offense and defense simultaneously in the decade of RAPM data that we have. And this was also a year after KG finished top-7 in both offensive and defensive RAPM in 2003. And in the now infamous Ilardi multi-year APM, Garnett finished #1 (by far) on defense and top-6 on offense from '04 - '09.

Point being: KG's offensive and defensive peaks might not have aligned perfectly...but there was still a lot of overlap. And in his peak year he was quite arguably the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA at the same time. Which, as you point out, is all that matters for the sake of this project.

Point taken, but it is pretty noteworthy that the general sense that Duncan was having a bit more defensive impact than Minny Garnett still seems to hold up if you look just at Garnett's peak years. Then Garnett goes to Boston and you see his offense fall off a cliff while his defense takes a great leap forward.

[Doctor MJ]

And here come the KG fans...

You really think that's productive in anyway?

[ElGee]

Vote: 1986 Larry Bird

This has been a good, if not limited, panel and discussion so far. This is really the first time I'm surprised -- that Kareem result came out of nowhere to me. In one sense, I'm kind of floored -- if people are viewing multiple Abdul-Jabbar seasons like this, how can he not be your GOAT or 2nd best in an all-time list? Either people aren't thinking this stuff out, or they've changed their minds on Kareem suddenly.

[ElGee]

How on earth Elgee can say "he had to prove he was just as good offensively on a talented team as a non-talented one for it to count (and then turn around and discuss Walton as an option over him!!!) is beyond me.

Bro, you need to learn to read. This is like the 5th time I've told you this, and I don't know how to say it any other way now. No where have I said what you just claimed I said.

You certainly can exercise the option to not read carefully, or twist people's words, or make snarky drive by comments, or quote yourself under another name and call it a great post. The thing is it's just not productive or fun. OK, well, the quoting yourself was fun, but the other stuff isn't productive. The next time you find yourself reaching a radical conclusion, stop and re-read what led you there. Then re-read it again. Then try and put some context around it. Then go have some fun for a while before returning to the "post reply" button. This may actually lead to a basketball discussion.

[colts18]

Point being: KG's offensive and defensive peaks might not have aligned perfectly...but there was still a lot of overlap. And in his peak year he was quite arguably the best offensive and defensive player in the NBA at the same time. Which, as you point out, is all that matters for the sake of this project.

No. He was never a better offensive player than Dirk. Shaq, Kobe, Nash, T-Mac also had arguments too. Duncan, Artest, Wallace were better defensively in 2004. But KG does have one of the better 2 way combos ever.

You could argue that LeBron was the best offensive player in 09 and best perimeter defensive player (not best overall). Same with 91 MJ or even 12 LeBron depending on where you stand between his offense with Durant.

[therealbig3]

I agree with ElGee that if you think Kareem has the #6 (or higher, based on the comments) peak of all time, then you pretty much need to have him at #1 or #2 on your personal list. He has insane longevity and durability, so a top 5ish peak should pretty much mean he's the GOAT for you. If he is, cool. If he isn't, then you either aren't as impressed with his longevity, or the people that voted for Kareem just contradicted themselves regarding his peak.

I would personally have him after the top 4, and after LeBron/Magic/Bird, and then he would be in a dogfight with Duncan/KG/Hakeem/Walton/Erving.

Kareem's #4 on my all time list btw.

[colts18]

I agree with ElGee that if you think Kareem has the #6 (or higher, based on the comments) peak of all time, then you pretty much need to have him at #1 or #2 on your personal list. He has insane longevity and durability, so a top 5ish peak should pretty much mean he's the GOAT for you. If he is, cool. If he isn't, then you either aren't as impressed with his longevity, or the people that voted for Kareem just contradicted themselves regarding his peak.

I would personally have him after the top 4, and after LeBron/Magic/Bird, and then he would be in a dogfight with Duncan/KG/Hakeem/Walton/Erving.

Kareem's #4 on my all time list btw.

I have Kareem #2 on my overall list. Awesome peak. You could argue that 72 was his actual peak, but his efficiency declined in the playoffs despite averaging 29-18. His 10 year prime pre-Magic was ridiculous.


Here are some of the good seasons he had:
29-15-4
32-16-3
1972: 35-17-5 (Possibly GOAT season)
30-16-5
27-15-5, 4 blk
30-14-4
28-17-5, 4 blk
26-13-4
26-13-4
24-13-5, 4 blk
average:29-14-5, 4 blk, 1 stl, .583 TS%

In the playoffs:
35-17-4
26-17-3
29-18-5
23-16-3
32-16-5
35-18-4
27-14-4
29-13-5
average: 30-16-4, 3 blk 1 stl, .563 TS%

That doesn't even include the Magic years where Kareem made a huge impact. there is a reason why this guy won 6 titles in the NBA and was a winner in college too.

[AnaheimRoyale]

Here's your remark Elgee.

03 Duncan did two things perfectly that IMO warp the opinion of him. First, he "carried" a bad offense, which people completely revere. And that doesn't do much for me unless it scales to good teams

Tell me, how did Bill Walton's offense scale to a good team?

[therealbig3]

@colts18

You need to change your vote. It would suck if LeBron lost because you ended up voting for a guy that already got voted in.