Chris Bosh vs. Carmelo Anthony

[kasino]

forcing a trade will get your team something, its impossible for him not to realize this would happen with getting traded

no one knew of the fit problems so pairing with Amare is a brilliant idea at the time and the idea was for a Paul/Melo/Amare big three as Paul said at Melo's wedding

I don't understand what that has to do with anything, they had a good fit as a team
Felton was looking amazing in a MDA offense with Amare
but what he has given them is a win that they were more then likely haven't had received without him

yea he probably would, no one is disputing that Lebron is most certainly a better player and would be his sidekick and Bosh would have been an excellent sidekick to Melo

[kasino]

Billups is just a starting quality PG
Nene is just starting quality too...so not stacked

Excuse you?

Down-playing the talent of those guys to advance your argument is a mistake; both of them are very good players. Billups in Denver was an 18/6 player on 59.5% TS in his first season in Denver, a 20/6 player on 60.1% TS in his second year there and then a 17/5 player in fewer minutes on 63.4% TS before the trade in 2011. In New York, he managed about 18/6 on 58.2% TS.

While not a volume distributor, he displayed excellent tempo control and was a SIGNIFICANT offensive threat who opened up the floor for everyone while playing more than solid defense. He was definitely a very good player.

Nene was a good defender who was hyper-efficient on offense and a solid rebounder. He was definitely more than just some throw-in player.

no one is down laying Billups but he is just a starter
Melo is a top 10 player at his position all time, Billups is not
Nene hasn't been mentioned since leaving Melo's side
no one said they are bad players just starting caliber players
how did I down play them, what was your indicator?

[Doctor MJ]

Melo in the Olympics is awesome. He'd actually be a better fit as LeBron's sidekick than Wade or Bosh.]

I been saying this for years. I felt if that rumored Nets trade happened for melo in 08 LBJ would've came to the Nets

Well but you're skipping past the problem here:

Melo doesn't play like this in a typical situation because he doesn't want to be reduced to such a role.

If I can take Melo & Bosh's skills, and replace their actual ego & decision making with an ideal, I take Melo easily. The problem with Melo is that he doesn't have an accurate view of his impact.

To be fair, most volume scorers are bad at this, so Melo's not alone.

[Doctor MJ]

forcing a trade will get your team something, its impossible for him not to realize this would happen with getting traded

no one knew of the fit problems so pairing with Amare is a brilliant idea at the time and the idea was for a Paul/Melo/Amare big three

-I understand Melo knew his old team would get something for him. I'm saying he didn't do that out of being nice or loyal, and he didn't do it out of wanting his new team to win obviously since it hurt the Knicks to give up that depth.

Hence, it is utterly absurd to talk as if Melo was trying to do something good for somebody else when he demanded a trade. He cared for nothing but himself. Doesn't make him worse than all other NBA stars by any means, just is what it is.

-Plenty of us knew the fit issues with Amare. It was obvious. They are both volume scorers who don't do anything else all that well. Everyone involved in these decision when the team could have gotten Deron instead really showed their lack of understanding of basketball.

-The notion of attempting a Paul/Melo/Amare big 3 was an idea I always found to be plenty reasonable actually. The problem with it was that only 1 of the pieces actually mattered, and he was the last one they were trying to get.

Of course I will mention I remember having discussions on here about that Big 3 vs the Heatles where people were adamant that Paul & Melo were roughly up there with LeBron & Wade and Amare was Bosh. As I said at the time: Paul is up there with LeBron & Wade, and Melo isn't close. Some thought I was ridiculous...safe bet none of them predicted that the trade for Melo would cause zero improvement in 2 years.

I don't understand what that has to do with anything, they had a good fit as a team
Felton was looking amazing in a MDA offense with Amare
but what he has given them is a win that they were more then likely haven't had received without him

Wait, are you seriously trying to say that it's irrelevant that the Knicks would have done just as well without Melo after using "Melo got them to the playoffs" as an argument?"

yea he probably would, no one is disputing that Lebron is most certainly a better player and would be his sidekick and Bosh would have been an excellent sidekick to Melo

I think what we've found is that no one's a good sidekick to Melo really. I mean the closest would be Chandler, except Chandler is actually more valuable than Melo so he's not a sidekick.

[kasino]

how do you know that
he's never said anything negative about this franchise
and never said it was his motive but in a comparison to a player who got his team nothing to a player who got his team the best depth in the league, who wins

thats complete nonsense they were thought of to be a new contender
grabbing two all-stars and room for a 3rd would be goal for any team. Besides on this website Deron has never been considered the player Melo is and don't know how long thats even been on this site

and I'm the one down playing people, Melo that never misses the playoffs doesn't matter? He and Paul would have been excellent together

Lebron is far and away from everyone else mentioned, Melo/Paul/Wade are all close imo and the Knicks possible big 3 wouldn't have been as good

on track with about 30 games to go if they won 42% of their last 27 games as they won 42% of their first 55 they would have win 34 games...not a playoff team
in having Melo they won 51% of games as the Nuggets won 56% of their games with him
Melo lead that team to the playoffs

Billups looked pretty good so did Iverson
Amare barely played in either playoff series but they finished out the 11 season great together before he went down and never recovered
we all know he's been injured this season well Knicks know

[tsherkin]

in a comparison to a player who got his team nothing to a player who got his team the best depth in the league, who wins

The more competent front office, not the players involved.

and I'm the one down playing people, Melo that never misses the playoffs doesn't matter? He and Paul would have been excellent together

Disconnected as are these two statements, the second one is most certainly correct... though I should point out that Doctor MJ wasn't arguing that point. He was, of course, saying Paul is a more valuable player than Melo, unless I'm mistaking you, Doc?

Melo/Paul/Wade are all close imo and the Knicks possible big 3 wouldn't have been as good

Yeah, but your opinion is clearly wrong; Wade has been noticeably better than Melo for the vast majority of his career. Paul is also a better player in general, but that's perhaps less obvious and he does come with his own set of issues, so it's more sensible to at least discuss those two (though in deference, he's made it pretty far in the playoffs despite never having the same depth as Melo enjoyed in Denver).

[kasino]

that totally goes against Dr.MJ's idea that going to a Dolan run team means your not about winning
apparently they are competent team

could have said that but used the term "actually mattered"

West/Chandler/Peja + a couple of three point shooters
Billups/Smith/Nene + a couple of three point shooters
I'm not sure who had considerable depth

[tsherkin]

that totally goes against Dr.MJ's idea that going to a Dolan run team means your not about winning
apparently they are competent team

His point was that New York is generally managed and coached very poorly, and he's not wrong. Billups was there for a season and was then gone. The Knicks had some draft haul... and promptly got rid of it, which wasn't wise. None of this contradicts the idea that the Knicks aren't a winning franchise at the moment.

West/Chandler/Peja + a couple of three point shooters
Billups/Smith/Nene + a couple of three point shooters
I'm not sure who had considerable depth

I would take the Billups/Smith/Nene/Anderson/Kleiza/Martin (though oft-injured) Nuggets over anything that the Hornets fielded at Paul's peak, no question.

[Doctor MJ]

how do you know that
he's never said anything negative about this franchise
and never said it was his motive but in a comparison to a player who got his team nothing to a player who got his team the best depth in the league, who wins

You can't just attribute something good that happens to someone who was involved. It's like praising a drunk driver for killing a pedestrian because it brought the pedestrian's family closer together.

thats complete nonsense they were thought of to be a new contender
grabbing two all-stars and room for a 3rd would be goal for any team.

Here's a link to a CBS article from the time:

Melo Trade: Are the Knicks now contenders?

This as the standard conversation at the time, and this guy was one of the "realists" who told people to calm down while being clear:

it's not hard to see New York going something like 18-10 and finishing with something like 46 wins, while at the same time being a scary team to play in the postseason.

Make no mistake, the Knicks results since the Melo trade have been a catastrophic disappointment that would have been even worse had the team acquired a new MVP (Chandler) and had Lin lead the team to success when Melo was injured.

Besides on this website Deron has never been considered the player Melo is and don't know how long thats even been on this site

I've been calling Deron a better player than Melo for roughly a half decade now, and that's not even the point: The point is that it was insane to favor adding another volume scoring star over a point guard when Amare's big success before had been while working with a point guard. Even if they favored Melo over Deron generally, they should have been able to see that.

The Knicks didn't, and that's called incompetence.

and I'm the one down playing people, Melo that never misses the playoffs doesn't matter?

Half the team's in the league make the playoffs. Why should I care if a player can guarantee mediocrity? (Which Melo can't by the way. Correlation is not causation, he's simply lucky he's never missed the playoffs.)

[Doctor MJ]

and I'm the one down playing people, Melo that never misses the playoffs doesn't matter? He and Paul would have been excellent together

Disconnected as are these two statements, the second one is most certainly correct... though I should point out that Doctor MJ wasn't arguing that point. He was, of course, saying Paul is a more valuable player than Melo, unless I'm mistaking you, Doc?

Yup.

Melo & Paul would be good together.
Amare & Paul would be good together.
Blake & Paul are good together.

This is why every team really wanted Paul, and any plan that involved getting Paul was an admirable goal.

The problem is treating Melo/Amare like that means you're 2/3rds of the way there. It's like saying "I got a water bottle and a helmet, I'm 2/3rds of the way to being able to go on a bike ride."

Yeah, but your opinion is clearly wrong; Wade has been noticeably better than Melo for the vast majority of his career. Paul is also a better player in general, but that's perhaps less obvious and he does come with his own set of issues, so it's more sensible to at least discuss those two (though in deference, he's made it pretty far in the playoffs despite never having the same depth as Melo enjoyed in Denver).

Yup.

Wade from his 2nd year in the league is better than Melo has ever been.
Paul might have been better as a rookie...

[TheKingOfVa360]

Melo for both easily.

You can build a playoff contender around Melo.

Can't do that with Bosh.

Bosh is a better second option, that's about it.

I don't think Bosh is on Melo's tier, but on RealGM Melo is a bum, so guys are making a case for Bosh.

I concur

[KnickelandDime]

I like Bosh as a second option and Melo as a first. Melo certainly has more value and I think you gotta take him over Bosh.
I agree that building a contender around Melo is difficult but he has enough going for him (elite isolation/post scoring ability, great rebounding, versatility on offense) that with the right pieces, he can be your best player. I think he would great in two places. The first is in a team of defensive role players where he was told to work in the post and fire away. On such a team he'd need a great PG who could get him the ball in spots and help him when he needed to kick it out from the double team. Such a team would have to be a top 5 defensive team that relied on his isolation ability to retain respectable offensive efficiency. The second team would be like the one he had in Denver (simple, fast paced, lots of ball movement, lots of pick and rolls and drive and kicks) but faster paced and with more shooters to give him space and allow him to play PF more so that he could exploit mismatches. With Bosh, I can't imagine him being anything other more than the Kemp to some better players Payton on a contender. He could lead the team in scoring but clearly be the second best player.

[kasino]

@T
I agree but those weren't his points

and I don't know West/Chandler/Peja/Posey/Butler is a great cast

@Doc
your idea was that he wasn't loyal
but neither is Bosh, Melo did more for his franchise while there and got them the best depth in the league forcing a trade...Bosh did neither

what makes him a realist? Is it because he don't see it as a good idea
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/02/2 ... -new-york/
is he not a realist
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entr ... 3/27603095
is he not for thinking they would give the top of the conference fits

Knicks haven't been great but Amare's been injured since last years playoffs and they trade lost their depth
without the Melo trade however they would have not seen the PS yet

yea fot wise Deron would have been a better choice but again the idea was for Paul/Melo/Amarehttp://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/07/chris-paul-wants-to-form-big-three-in-new-york/

and have no problems with Wade being seen better as Melo or you prefer Bosh over Melo
but that your reasoning were not showing Bosh being better then Melo
I haven't been arguing who's better but that your reasoning was screwed

[Doctor MJ]

@Doc
your idea was that he wasn't loyal
but neither is Bosh, Melo did more for his franchise while there and got them the best depth in the league forcing a trade...Bosh did neither

what makes him a realist? Is it because he don't see it as a good idea
http://hangtime.blogs.nba.com/2011/02/2 ... -new-york/
is he not a realist
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entr ... 3/27603095
is he not for thinking they would give the top of the conference fits

Knicks haven't been great but Amare's been injured since last years playoffs and they trade lost their depth
without the Melo trade however they would have not seen the PS yet

yea fot wise Deron would have been a better choice but again the idea was for Paul/Melo/Amarehttp://www.slamonline.com/online/nba/2010/07/chris-paul-wants-to-form-big-three-in-new-york/

-I never made the argument that Bosh was better because he was loyal. Loyalty only entered into the conversation because you have this bizarre belief that the fact that Melo made a trade demand (which netted Denver some players in the trade) should be something to talk about as part of your pro-Melo argument.

-Re: realist. Okay, let me clarify. Note in my post I used that word in quotes. This was not me giving the writer a compliment, it was referencing the tendency of people who take a more moderate view on events to be called realists. This guy was very clearly distinguishing himself from the more excitable folks in his article, hence he's looking to be known as a "realist".

When we talk about what expectations were of Melo then, if we find that even the skeptical, trying-to-be-moderate, "realists" were WAY too optimistic in their guesses compared to what actually happened, this means that what actually happened can only be called a monumental disappointment.

-Re:"no Melo, no playoffs yet". Don't be silly. They would have made the playoffs even before last year if it weren't for Melo. They were a .500 ballclub in a conference where a record of 36-46 would get you into the playoffs.

They would have made the playoffs without Melo...
In part because making the playoffs in the East is virtually no accomplishment at all...
which is one reason why Melo's playoffs streak still existing has so much to do with luck.

and have no problems with Wade being seen better as Melo or you prefer Bosh over Melo
but that your reasoning were not showing Bosh being better then Melo
I haven't been arguing who's better but that your reasoning was screwed

I don't know if this is you just trying to right your conclusion or what, but I don't know what to do with it. Obviously, if the arguments you make above are why you say my reasoning is "screwed", you're just wrong.

But when you say you haven't been arguing who's better, if that's not what you're doing, what are you doing? What is the thesis you want the world to understand?

[kasino]

no loyalty entered the conversation on your very first post, I had nothing to do with that

Bosh & Bosh given what you say about "knowing how they are now".

Melo's NBA career is just incredibly problematic. There are just tons of indicators that Melo, playing the role that Melo always plays in the NBA, puts a seriously low ceiling on his team. Him forcing the move away from a solid Denver team to New York accomplished the stunning superfecta of 1) not being loyal, 2) not caring about winning, 3) his old team not missing him, and 4) his new team not beneftting.

It's the height of irony that Melo plays so well on our Dream Teams specifically because he accepts a role that he ordinarily thinks is beneath him.

I think one could do at least as much with Bosh as my #1 star, and Bosh has shown more willingness to sacrifice to win.

your still saying having been excited about the pairing doesn't make you a realist

they were supposed to be one of the top teams in the East not a contender
still as a Knicks fan I'm disappointed but not in Melo but Stat

no they weren't they were a .42 win team before Melo and would have been 10th in the conference winning only 34 wins that season
How is it luck of 7 of his first 9 seasons are in the West, his trade turned them into .510 team for the end of the 2011 season and with an entire year of injured of Amare kept them on level with the Western Conference Mavs
if anyone is down playing players its you

you think your a doctor never used the laughing smiley but

I've been arguing your screwed reasoning
1) not being loyal
again you brought it up
Bosh wasn't loyal and Melo got his team the best depth in the league

2) not caring about winning
you said going to a Dolan team means you don't care about winning, whatever

3) his old team not missing him
got the best depth in the league and still haven't turned them into a 50 win ball club as Melo had them

4) his new team not benefiting.
his new team don't make the playoffs without him and a year with an injured sidekick and minimal depth continued to make the playoffs

[AshyLarry]

melo as a build up or a sidekick. problem is, i dont know if he can defer

[Doctor MJ]

no loyalty entered the conversation on your very first post, I had nothing to do with that

Bosh & Bosh given what you say about "knowing how they are now".

Melo's NBA career is just incredibly problematic. There are just tons of indicators that Melo, playing the role that Melo always plays in the NBA, puts a seriously low ceiling on his team. Him forcing the move away from a solid Denver team to New York accomplished the stunning superfecta of 1) not being loyal, 2) not caring about winning, 3) his old team not missing him, and 4) his new team not beneftting.

It's the height of irony that Melo plays so well on our Dream Teams specifically because he accepts a role that he ordinarily thinks is beneath him.

I think one could do at least as much with Bosh as my #1 star, and Bosh has shown more willingness to sacrifice to win.

Okay, let me give a partial apology:

I guess I am the first person to mention "loyalty", but as I had said in my last post:

I never made the argument that Bosh was better because he was loyal.

So I apologize for saying something that wasn't completely accurate, but...we are only still talking about loyalty because you haver repeatedly tried to argue that Melo should get some kind of credit for his trade demand resulting in the Nuggets acquiring some players in the trade. And that's absurd.

your still saying having been excited about the pairing doesn't make you a realist

No, I'm not saying anything like that, and I'm afraid, I don't know how to explain it any better than I already have.

they were supposed to be one of the top teams in the East not a contender
still as a Knicks fan I'm disappointed but not in Melo but Stat

This is about what I'd expect from Knick fans who thought the trade was a good idea.

Obviously I have to say up front that Amare has been injured, so that's a factor, but another major factor is simply that when Melo showed up, he became the focal point of the offense, and Amare dried up on the vine. As someone, who had concerns about combining two volume scorers, that's exactly the type of thing that I was afraid of.

I'm not saying "This is all Melo's fault! Amare is blameless!", but blaming the guy forced into the reduced role is missing the point. This isn't a problem with one of them, it's a problem with both of them trying to work together and really struggling because their respective games' conflict.

no they weren't they were a .42 win team before Melo and would have been 10th in the conference winning only 34 wins that season

Okay one of us is confused. Let's figure out which one.

They were 28-26 when they made the trade on Feb 21st, were they not?

How is it luck of 7 of his first 9 seasons are in the West, his trade turned them into .510 team for the end of the 2011 season and with an entire year of injured of Amare kept them on level with the Western Conference Mavs

Robert Horry has 10 million rings. He doesn't have them because he's the best, he has them because it's a team game, and hence players get "lucky" whenever they have a supporting cast that helps them out a lot.

Getting into specifics:

Melo had good supporting casts. He never really lifted them like you'd expect someone of his marketability-level to do, which was why some of us were able to predict the disappointment in New York much more accurately than you.

Re: "keep them on the level with the Mavs despite". Wow, that's just bizarre. The Knicks had a better record when Melo didn't play than when he was out there "keeping them on a level", and you're making it sound like he carried a team that wouldn't win a game without him to championship contender status.
if anyone is down playing players its you

Skipping ahead a bit:

2) not caring about winning
you said going to a Dolan team means you don't care about winning, whatever

3) his old team not missing him
got the best depth in the league and still haven't turned them into a 50 win ball club as Melo had them

4) his new team not benefiting.
his new team don't make the playoffs without him and a year with an injured sidekick and minimal depth continued to make the playoffs

2) I'll stand by that statement with Melo. I can't imagine a scenario where a player demands a trade to one specific mediocre team if what's first and foremost on his mind is winning.

Maybe the Dolan statement is a bit of hyperbole though. The truth is that no players should believe Dolan can build a dynasty, but I'm not going to claim that every player in the league realizes how incompetent the organization is.

3 & 4) You really need to drop this "depth" argument. When superstars force trades, it's taken as a given that the winner and loser of the trade is not in doubt. People aren't analyzing the trades saying "Ooh, look what Denver got there, that's great!" Superstars in the NBA have the power they do because the very best players have so much impact that they render depth a very minor point, which was why New York was eager to make the trade.

Were someone from the future to come back and visit Knicks management pre-trade and said, "Yeah, so years after the trade, we still aren't better, Denver's actually still about as good as it was before, and because of the trade we really never had a shot at getting Paul.."...the time traveler probably gets locked up in a mental institution 12 Monkeys style.

The moving of the Knicks goal post in the past season and a half is so amazing, it's hard to believe.

[ahonui06]

Melo as a franchise player for sure.

[kasino]

ok

only brought it up because in comparison to a player who got his former team nothing the player who got his team two starters and a back up center wins

and I apologize they were a .500 team

Horry isn't Melo and never been the best player on his team let alone second
he did have a good team but in no way stacked and for 3 straight seasons kept them as a 50 win team
its a disappointment but Amare has been injured and should be getting back to form without Amare the depth on the Knicks isn't what he had in Denver

Going to Knicks would not have been a worst option then going to the Nets/Rockets as they were the teams out for him and certainly the idea of playing with another All-Star and a possible 3rd isn't to be over looked

are we saying from games played to games lost that they player
or games won to total loses
Melo comes in 2nd for his team in the first option to the linsanity streak
and clear 1st to the 2nd option

Everyone talks about how much the Knicks gave up for the trade and that Denver has the best depth in the league and even before the Iggy trade was seen as a tough team without an go to scorer to beat out a real contender.

well that certainly could happen they also can become the 2nd best team in the conference as they do have the talent to do so