Magic O'Neal vs. Hakeem Bird

[hokageinfamus]

Who do you got?

[tsherkin]

Can you elaborate on who gets what?

Magic O'neal would seem not to fit together all that well; a 7'2 dude who lives in the post versus the mobile perimeter guy who also thrived in the post, but still needed and loved to handle in transition and slash at times? Not the greatest combo for floor balance.

Hakeem was a big-time on-ball player, while Bird mixed post-ups with transition offense and off-ball movement very effectively. Are you saying Hakeem's defense with Bird's offense, and maybe Hakeem's athleticism bolstering Bird's O?

[hokageinfamus]

sorry about that - I just think that a 7'1 260 pound big with handles and court vision of Magic and the strength, athleticism and dominance of O'Neal would be hard to stop. Practically a 7 foot Barkley with better passing

and

Are you saying Hakeem's defense with Bird's offense, and maybe Hakeem's athleticism bolstering Bird's O?

yeah

[tsherkin]

sorry about that - I just think that a 7'1 260 pound big with handles and court vision of Magic and the strength, athleticism and dominance of O'Neal would be hard to stop. Practically a 7 foot Barkley with better passing

The last time Shaq was 260, he was at Cole HS in San Antonio, heh. He was 290, 295 when he was DRAFTED and over 270 at LSU. He was a big, big boy, even when he looked skinnier.

It'd be an interesting combo, but now you're talking point center, right? That's a lot of responsibility at either end of the floor, and you're wasting his size by having spend too much time above the FT line extended... which he'd have to in order to exploit Magic's passing to its fullest extent. More to the point, he's not quick enough to match what Magic was doing in transition and even though Shaquille had great handles for a center, he's too tall for him to be as devastating an open-court ball-handler as was Magic at 6'8. That's a half-foot difference in height and a LONG way for the ball to go down before it hits hardwood, leaving him more vulnerable to getting picked, and you know he'd get trapped mid-court or before on a regular basis to exploit that. There are strategic counters, but it would cause problems.

Now, if you're talking about just giving Shaq Magic's jumper, FT shooting and post passing abilities and seeing what that does to him as a straight up center, that's a little different. He probably turns into a 4-6 apg player and scores more because of his greater FT%, plus he ends up being versatile enough to get involved in PnR play and maybe a set jumper here and there, which expands his offensive repertoire and longevity as a first-option offensive weapon. So that's a little different, but it's not like he'd be some 30/12/12 player, that's all I was saying. You'd almost be better off just saying mix him with someone like Bill Walton or Vlade, or another great high-post center.

Are you saying Hakeem's defense with Bird's offense, and maybe Hakeem's athleticism bolstering Bird's O?

yeah[/quote]

Well, it depends on what you're looking for in Shaq, but Bird was already one of the 5 or 6 best players in the history of the game as he was. You make him a repeat DPOY and hand him that kind of leaping ability and foot speed and he becomes essentially untouchable at either end of the floor in combination with his post skills, jumper and so forth.

[thizznation]

I told myself I wouldn't post in any more of these type of topics...But hey, it's the off-season!

If you kept all of O'Neal's size he wouldn't be able to utilize Magic's passing and play-making to the full potential. He would pretty much just gain better passing out of double teams.

[Dogen]

I'd take prime Magic/Bird over prime Dream/Shaq. That would be an awesome 2 on 2.

[tsherkin]

He would pretty much just gain better passing out of double teams.

[/quote]

That's not entirely true. We agree, of course, that Shaq's size would reduce the utility of Magic's passing, but remember that this is a guy who rocked 7 apg as a fat, out of shape PF who hadn't played in years during the 96 season. He was a PHENOMENAL post passer, particularly from the high post, and Magic O'neal wouldn't be limited to the 8- to 12-foot arc around the rim, he'd have the J Magic developed through his career, which means he'd have a three and a nice set 20-footer, so he could justify posting in from the elbow, kind of the way Lebron was doing this season and in the playoffs. That leaves him all kinds of passing angles. Obviously, he'd want to leverage his size and athleticism in the post more frequently, especially as a highly-skilled FT shooter, but his passing would still come out meaning more than just working the double team better (and Shaq was great to begin with at assassinating the double with his passing and post/re-post, you don't find a lot better than what he gave in that regard).

[MacGill]

Magic O'Neal would run the fast break, lob to himself, and break the basket

I'll take Hakeem Bird. Even greater range and the passing earlier on in his career. Add Bird's intangibles to keep Hakeem cool and you have a devasting player.

[thizznation]

Tsherkin, I was thinking of a similar outcome with O'Neal being able to operate out of the high post and even further with Magic's shooting ability but I think his immense size would limit him once he's way out there. As a defender you know that O'neal isn't going to blow by you from 15 feet out so you can really get up in his grill and challenge that shot and try to apply as much pressure as possible. What I'm getting at is I don't really see the 2 options that Magic Oneal could burn you with out there. Like if Oneal wasn't as large and quicker he could face you up if you got in to tight, or bury the jumper if you sag off too much. If the O is able to force the D into these sort of conundrums, they are usually really successful.

[tsherkin]

What I'm getting at is I don't really see the 2 options that Magic Oneal could burn you with out there. Like if Oneal wasn't as large and quicker he could face you up if you got in to tight, or bury the jumper if you sag off too much. If the O is able to force the D into these sort of conundrums, they are usually really successful.

Well, like Magic, he'd just turn around and back in from the wing, right? What are you going to do to stop that? Especially with a perimeter defender and especially if you sag off and he can hit the jumper (which Magic O'neal could do). You throw a big on him and he has the speed to get by that big, especially sucking the defender in with his J. So I could see him being a bit of a threat out there. Not as dynamic as Magic was himself, of course, but more as a flavor addition to what you'd have if Shaq was an 85% shooter and the best post passer in the history of the game, with the ability to pop out of a high screen as well. It'd be interesting. I'd still suggest Hakeem Bird or whatever would be the better overall combination, but it's a matter of subjective opinion, really, or minor differences, because Magic O'neal solves a lot of Shaq's weaknesses (mainly FT% and shooting range, plus turning him into a passing savant).

[thizznation]

I see your point, also bringing out your 4/5 way out there to guard Magic O'Neal would open up lanes and we know that Magic would be hitting cutters all day in that scenario.

[tsherkin]

I see your point, also bringing out your 4/5 way out there to guard Magic O'Neal would open up lanes and we know that Magic would be hitting cutters all day in that scenario.

For sure, as would Magic O'neal. It's lose-lose with him out there... unless you take advantage of that high dribble and send your help defender to try to pick his pocket, and that will be more successful than usual because he'll have a lot of trouble guarding the ball out on the perimeter against a trap, as I said earlier. Still, he'd be very good and it would be interesting.

[Dr Positivity]

Hakeem Bird is basically Hakeem with Dirk's offense, and better passing. That wins.