#30 Highest Peak of All Time (Howard '11 wins)

[Doctor MJ]

Elgin Baylor '61 has been enshrined. We move on.

[JordansBulls]

Vote: 1975 Rick Barry

Averaged 30.6 ppg / 5.7 rpg / 6.2 apg / 2.9 spg in the season

Averaged 28.2 ppg / 5.5 rpg / 6.1 apg / 2.9 spg in the playoffs and doubled the win shares of any teammate in the playoffs.


In the finals he averaged 29.5 ppg / 4.0 rpg / 5.0 apg / 3.5 spg / 0.8 bpg

[therealbig3]

Guys I'm considering right now:

-McHale
-Howard

-Barry
-Durant
-McAdoo
-Pettit
-Pierce
-King
-Carter
-Iverson
-Hill
-Drexler
-Mourning
-Payton
-Gilmore
-Isiah
-Nique

Having a really tough time ordering these guys after McHale and Howard. I think Pierce is clearly a bit better than Carter or Iverson, but I would take someone like Durant over Pierce in terms of peak...Gervin was an elite scorer for a long time, Hill was a do-it-all kind of guy, but has a bit of Joe Johnson to him, in the sense that he can put up stats that suggest he can "do-it-all", but it might not have been in the best interest of his team for him to play that role. Drexler is another great 2nd option...wasn't much of a shooter, and couldn't really create for himself in the half court, but a fantastic rebounder, passer, and open court player.

IDK, a lot of parity after McHale and Howard for me.

[therealbig3]

Vote: 88 McHale

[lorak]

vote: Barry '75

[PTB Fan]

Can't chose between Barry and McHale at the moment.

[C-izMe]

87 McHale.

[C-izMe]

87 McHale has my vote.

[ElGee]

vote: 2011 Dwight Howard

With Elgin Baylor off the board, I'm looking at...the exact same 10 guys I was looking at last thread. realbig3 -- I hear you...the farther to the left you slide on the bell curve, the closer the distances become. As of now, I'll be going...

Durant
Barry/McHale

probably then Reed, Frazier, Thurmond.

THen there's a glop of players that pretty much have legit argument for the last 13 spots (removing Baylor) because anyway I slice it they are all within an SRS point of impact (portability, health and era impressiveness may be the deciders). THere are all like high portable +3.5 players or +4/4.5 players...and there are a good amount:

Hill, Payton, Gilmore, Pierce, King, Drexler, Mourning, Isiah, Gervin, KJ, Stockton, Rose, Thompson, Lanier, Pettit, Cowens, Rodman (!) Miller, Kidd, Cousy (?)...with a few more viable guys I haven't evaluated in depth (Cunningham, Moncrief, M. Johnson, B. Wallace, Iverson)

I've bolded the guys you didn't. Also, at some point I'm going to need a Nique argument...

[therealbig3]

Oh yeah, another guy: Manu. He's definitely ahead of Carter and Iverson as far as I'm concerned.

[lorak]

Can't chose between Barry and McHale at the moment.

Barry proved he can be leader of championship team. With McHale we don't know that.

[bastillon]

Can't chose between Barry and McHale at the moment.

Barry proved he can be leader of championship team. With McHale we don't know that.

you cant be serious. there were multiple ringless players chosen long before this thread. individual impact is what matters, not the fact of winning itself. McHale didn't have the opportunity to win as #1 because he was playing with GOAT level player when he was at his best. McHale's impact is higher than Barry's though, and his skillset is much more portable. Barry's inefficient volume scoring (solely a midrange scorer with weak FTA rate - that wont translate well to any era) isn't a very valuable skill on a talented team (you're primarily wanna look at talented teams because they're the ones you can win a title with). and if you look at McHale's skills, he's perfect to build around. shotblocker, versatile defense, great finisher, doesnt turn the ball over, good passer when asked to, and just unstoppable as a scorer. I just don't see how Barry would give you more, despite a pretty big gap in terms of playmaking, Barry is just nowhere near as a scorer, defender, or rebounder.

vote: 88 McHale

[Lightning25]

I'm really shocked that some of these names are listed before Yao. I mean really? Carter? Pierce? Iverson? Those guys were not better than what Yao was at his peak. I understand the McGrady fans bringing down Yao because McGrady was on his team but not the rest of you guys.

[lorak]

Can't chose between Barry and McHale at the moment.

Barry proved he can be leader of championship team. With McHale we don't know that.

individual impact is what matters, not the fact of winning itself.

Right. (I shouldn't have been use word "championship".) And individual impact as a leader also matters here. McHale simply wasn't a leader.
Besides, as fatal said: McHale might be offensive anchor, we don't know for sure.

[bastillon]

I'm really shocked that some of these names are listed before Yao. I mean really? Carter? Pierce? Iverson? Those guys were not better than what Yao was at his peak. I understand the McGrady fans bringing down Yao because McGrady was on his team but not the rest of you guys.

the problem with Yao is his health. his only full seasons (when he was capable of playing in the PS) were in 2005 and 2007. in 05 he wasn't good enough. in 07 he missed like 30 games during the RS. playoff seeding is something that matters to me and with Yao missing so many games it's a problem that can't be simply overcome. I'd agree healthy Yao is better than Iverson and Carter. not sure about Pierce but they'd be fairly equal. but healthy Yao is just a concept. Yao was never really healthy and should be penalized accordingly.

Right. (I shouldn't have been use word "championship".) And individual impact as a leader also matters here. McHale simply wasn't a leader.
Besides, as fatal said: McHale might be offensive anchor, we don't know for sure.

McHale may have lacked leadership skills but Barry was widely considered as one of the all-time chemistry killers. he was a guy whose teammates hated him. even then leadership can only be used as a tie breaker to me, not as a crux of the pro-Barry argument.

we don't know for sure if McHale was an offensive anchor but we can be fairly certain about this given his skillset, impact and the strength of the teams he was playing on. 88 Celtics were basically a GOAT-good offense and Bird clearly lost a step by then. on the other hand where is the evidence that Barry was a big time offensive anchor ? I just dont see a guy with roughly 51% TS as someone who would lead my team to great heights offensively.

and defensively it's a blowout. Barry was actually a good defender but compared to McHale he comes up really short.

[ardee]

Either King, Barry or McHale right now, not very sure.

I like McHale's offense, just uber-efficient, almost on a Barkley-like level, but without the turnovers and with better defense. Obviously Barkley was a better rebounder and passer, which is why he was voted in at 23 (or was it 24?), but it's a good comparison to me.

Barry, I've always been high on him, not sure about his efficiency though. I'd like to see some analysis about him. That Warriors team had little to no offensive help for him, I'm wondering why people don't mention this year with Olajuwon and Nowitzki.

And I've been taking about King since thread #15, so I'm not going to repeat myself. Almost combined the efficiency and volume of the above two players. But I'm unsure if he could impact the game in areas outside of scoring.

Going to wait another day with my vote.

[lorak]

re: Barry was inefficient
It's not true, and for sure his scoring efficiency didn't affected negatively his teams ORTGs


1965 - no Barry, Warriors 9th (in 9 teams league) in ortg, -6.4 (!) relatively to league average

1966 - rookie Barry, 7th (9 teams), but -2.8 relatively to league average, so huge improvement

1967 - 7th (10 teams), but -0.7 and he lead Warriors (team which didn't make playoffs two previous years despite having Thurmond) to the finals as 2nd year player

1968 - no Barry, 10th (12 teams) and -2.8

That was worse version of Barry, who scored a lot, but didn't do much else on offense. He was still very good (around +3 SRS player) but worse than his prime version.


1972 - no Barry, Warrios 15th place in ortg (17 teams in the NBA), -3.1 ortg relatively to league average

1973 - 11th (17 teams), -0.5 ortg it was Barry's first year after ABA, transition season I would say as he need time to adjust, but he still improved team a lot.

1974 - it was the year, when Barry entered his prime and showed perfect (for a wing) balance between scoring, playmaking and defense. Warriors offense was 2nd in the league despite so called Barry's inefficient shooting...

1975 - the same story, 2nd offense in the league and of course championship without great defenders and with second option such as Wilkes (who later was 4th best player on title Lakers teams)

1976 - Warriors still were 2nd best offense in the NBA and their anchor still was "inefficent" Barry.

1977 - 4th offense (among 22 teams)
1978 - 10th offense (among 22 teams), last Barry's season as a Warrior, first season since 1973 when his assist average was below 6 per game.

So what we see here is first true point forawrd leading "mini" offensive dynasty during mid 70s. It didn't last long (only 4 seasons), but was pretty impressive looking at Barry's supporting cast. So I think Rick's inefficiency is very overblown thing. Sure, he probably was inefficient scorer by modern standards, but his style of play for sure helped his teams and made them very good on offensive end. And it shouldn't be surprise, because off ball perimeter scorers are always valuable offensively. Playmaking forwards also are positive for offense. And Barry did both these things extremely well + he was very good scorer and above average defender. He was like combination of Reggie Miller (off ball stuff) and Grant Hill with better defense.

PS
Most of his career Barry's TS% was above league average.

[ElGee]

I'm really shocked that some of these names are listed before Yao. I mean really? Carter? Pierce? Iverson? Those guys were not better than what Yao was at his peak. I understand the McGrady fans bringing down Yao because McGrady was on his team but not the rest of you guys.

I should have listed 2007 Yao as a viable candidate...just haven't fully evaluated him yet against these others guys.

[ardee]

1975 - the same story, 2nd offense in the league and of course championship without great defenders and with second option such as Wilkes (who later was 4th best player on title Lakers teams)

It didn't last long (only 4 seasons), but was pretty impressive looking at Barry's supporting cast.

This is the point I was trying to make earlier. Seriously speaking, the man had less help then a Nowitzki and maybe as little as an Olajuwon.

Why isn't he mentioned with them in terms of incredible Playoff runs without help?

[PTB Fan]

What year do you guys have for McHale?

The more I re-search on him, I strongly consider to vote him.