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Durant '12 has been enshrined. We move on.

Vote: 87 McHale

Same reasons as before.

Not really sure what the issue is with his peak. Super efficient volume scorer, one of the most unstoppable post scorers of all time. His defense was very good as well, especially considering his versatility. The only issue I really see is his passing from the post, but that's pretty much irrelevant at this point imo, because:

-he was such a good scorer, and he wasn't exactly a ball stopper, he just didn't get a lot of assists

-we're at #33

Kind of disappointed we didn't see a Durant vs McHale discussion.

therealbig3 wrote:Vote: 87 McHale

Same reasons as before.

Not really sure what the issue is with his peak. Super efficient volume scorer, one of the most unstoppable post scorers of all time. His defense was very good as well, especially considering his versatility. The only issue I really see is his passing from the post, but that's pretty much irrelevant at this point imo, because:

-he was such a good scorer, and he wasn't exactly a ball stopper, he just didn't get a lot of assists

-we're at #33

Kind of disappointed we didn't see a Durant vs McHale discussion.

First off I'm voting 87 McHale too.

Second off the reason there wasn't much argument between the two (also the reason there has been little discussion lately) is that we've been talking about these guys for 15+ threads. Most people are sure of where players stand already and other than players like Walt and Kidd (who have been discussed little) most players won't move up or down depending on arguments.

He led the Hawks to more of an elite record. However 1986 Nique was higher in MVP voting and led the league in scoring.

Vote: 1987 Dominique Wilkins.

Vote: '87 Kevin McHale

As was said earlier. He was a super efficient 26 ppg scorer in '87. His defense was excellent and his rebounding was pretty good. His passing wasn't great but it was one of his higher seasons (2.6 apg).

Vote: '87 Kevin McHale.

Everything else is covered.

Vote: 87 McHale

Looking to the Knicks next, either Reed or Frazier, with Nate Thurmond in the mix. Again, we're at a place where even incredibly small shifts in opinion will clearly re-order these players, but unless there are some compelling arguments I'm probably leaning these three guys next. Not because of "bigs over smalls" or any other rubric, but because I think they gave a team the best chance to win in the years they played.

Thurmond, who can be expounded upon further, is one of the most valuable looking players in history. Reed was really quite underrated defensively Reed) and peaked before Frazier. I like 69 or 70 Reed, but in Frazier's case I like 1971 as his peak. I know most people default to 70 and 73 because of the title years, but the 71 and 72 seasons are actually slightly more impressive to me.

5 votes for Mchale 1987 thus far and 1 for Nique. But what is interesting is the years used is the same in 1987 and when you look at the retro POY

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1021572&start=69

It came down to these two guys.

5. Dominique Wilkins 0 0 0 3 5 14 0.074
6. Kevin McHale 0 0 0 1 8 11 0.058

vote: '87 McHale

I like that people are overlooking the injury at the end of the season, he's already been penalized for it or he might have been selected 5 threads ago. '87 was clearly his peak, any other season just feels wrong.

I'm not opposed to voting for Pettit in the next thread. I read a good point on how he adjusted to the higher efficiency of the league as it was going up. Based on footage, I actually have a lot of respect for his skills and think he had the ability to adjust his game to find a way to be efficient as league-wide numbers rose. Don't really know what people thought of him on defense though. Keep in mind this is a two time MVP winner and best player on championship team type of guy in his era.

Next dozen guys are going to be really tough to separate. Just to throw names out there: Zo, Drexler, Frazier, Hill, Pierce, Kidd, Isiah, Stockton, Cowens, Payton, with KJ, Price being right in the mix of those PGs too imo. After Zo, I have Lanier and Thurmond as the next centers (maybe Reed too but need to hear arguments for him). Ginobili, Hondo, Vince are some other wings to look at. I have McAdoo around 45-50, kind of feel like I'm really underrating him though.

fatal9 wrote:Next dozen guys are going to be really tough to separate. Just to throw names out there: Zo, Drexler, Frazier, Hill, Pierce, Kidd, Isiah, Stockton, Cowens, Payton, with KJ, Price being right in the mix of those PGs too imo. After Zo, I have Lanier and Thurmond as the next centers (maybe Reed too but need to hear arguments for him). Ginobili, Hondo, Vince are some other wings to look at. I have McAdoo around 45-50, kind of feel like I'm really underrating him though.

What are your thoughts on Yao Ming? Will he miss your top 50 peaks because of the injuries? You have great analysis and I'd like to hear your thoughts on him. I feel like Yao should definitely be in the top 50 somewhere, he was just too good at his peak which was in 2007 or 2009.

Also....

Vote: 1987 McHale

For the reasons mentioned by most already. Nique couldn't touch his jockstrap. Yes, Nique got more MVP votes but that was because Mchale played with Bird and who cares what a bunch of random reporters think. Aside from their journalism degree, how are they any different than your average fan?

Vote: 1984 Bernard King

I'll get into a more detailed analysis later, but in short, I think this was one of the best perimeter scoring years in terms of both efficiency and volume, ever. No one could stop this guy. 40+ ppg on 64+ TS% against the freaking Pistons? He doesn't seem to have any other traction but I feel like I really should vote for this guy.

Lightning25 wrote:

fatal9 wrote:Next dozen guys are going to be really tough to separate. Just to throw names out there: Zo, Drexler, Frazier, Hill, Pierce, Kidd, Isiah, Stockton, Cowens, Payton, with KJ, Price being right in the mix of those PGs too imo. After Zo, I have Lanier and Thurmond as the next centers (maybe Reed too but need to hear arguments for him). Ginobili, Hondo, Vince are some other wings to look at. I have McAdoo around 45-50, kind of feel like I'm really underrating him though.

What are your thoughts on Yao Ming? Will he miss your top 50 peaks because of the injuries? You have great analysis and I'd like to hear your thoughts on him. I feel like Yao should definitely be in the top 50 somewhere, he was just too good at his peak which was in 2007 or 2009.

Injuries and durability is a big factor. He was a beast in '07 but missed 32 games, in '09 he was out due to injury in second round of playoffs (and wasn't playing on same level as '07), but even when he is healthy, stamina is a concern for me. Yao used to get too tired in games he had to log more than like 30 minutes, so does he have the stamina (and the durability) to play 20+ physical and intense games in the playoffs where you want your stars playing big minutes? I don't think so.

He was a good defensive presence because his sheer size really clogged up the lane and he had the length/size to really bother other centers on post ups but he could be a bit exploited at times depending on the matchup because of his mediocre pick and roll D, foul prone-ness at times due to slow foot speed (seen teams strategically attack him to send him to the bench with good success) and overall rigidity in his defense due to his mobility (might seem like nitpicking, but things like this become important with matchups). Offensively I don't think he was particularly great at passing or reading defenses (doesn't make quick decisions with the ball), was a bit turnover prone and teams also used to be really effective at denying him the ball late in games. This was because of his poor stamina and upper body strength which made it difficult for him to get position and also because of teams successfully fronting him with a help defender behind (this wouldn't have been an issue in other eras). But he more than makes up for all this with his super efficient low post/FT scoring, combination of his touch and height was pretty much unstoppable. Definitely a positive impact player on both ends, but he comes with a set of issues.

Durable Yao at his best with good stamina playing the way he did? I'd say that's definitely top 50 good (he was a 27/10 player on 60 TS% with good defensive presence on a winning team in '07 before getting injured late December), but based on what he can actually give you and considering the limitations of his body? I can't vote for him. I get what you are arguing, that he's a better "player" when he's on the court than the guys who will go ahead of him and I'd agree for some, but he can't sustain playing at that level without getting hurt or fatigued and it eats away at how much value he can really give you over the season. Plus I think his playoff impact is a bit unknown. Based on his profile and what I've seen in the few playoff series he has played is that Yao's effectiveness on both ends can be greatly reduced because he's someone you can make adjustments for (offensively by fronting him, defensively by changing the pace of the game or forcing him play pick and roll D, and physically I don't think he has the stamina you need to put together a great sustained playoff run).

fatal9 wrote:
Next dozen guys are going to be really tough to separate. Just to throw names out there: Zo, Drexler, Frazier, Hill, Pierce, Kidd, Isiah, Stockton, Cowens, Payton, with KJ, Price being right in the mix of those PGs too imo. After Zo, I have Lanier and Thurmond as the next centers (maybe Reed too but need to hear arguments for him). Ginobili, Hondo, Vince are some other wings to look at. I have McAdoo around 45-50, kind of feel like I'm really underrating him though.

What do you think about Gilmore? I would also love to read your breakdown about Lanier (who IMO is very underrated because during his prime he played on bad team).

JordansBulls wrote:5 votes for Mchale 1987 thus far and 1 for Nique. But what is interesting is the years used is the same in 1987 and when you look at the retro POY

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1021572&start=69

It came down to these two guys.

5. Dominique Wilkins 0 0 0 3 5 14 0.074
6. Kevin McHale 0 0 0 1 8 11 0.058

This is interesting. Of course, you have to also note with that that in addition to being close between the two, more people voted for McHale in their top 5 than did for Nique.

Also of note, while such results look honestly incredibly weak for someone being considered here, the competition at that time was rather absurd. My vote for that year is:

1. Magic
2. Bird
3. Jordan
4. Hakeem
5. McHale

Vote: McHale '87

I'm going to go with the majority here, and then invoke Mercy Rule. Nobody's making that big of a comeback.

So, McHale takes it.